Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Doffen]

@Super Dickmann handed you squat, because your video says nothing about the story. As such, try to get this one, it also did not say anything about the story being set, what it was before they changed the leveling flow. Or anything else about the story. That's kinda what not mentioning the story at all indicates.

So you making conclusions about the story from a video of Blizzard not mentioning the story is all kinds of baseless. At least educate yourself on the basics of the basics of argumentation if you want to engage in a discussion. Because so far you are the one handing people things.\

Here's a task for you: quote or link the time stamp of the video you keep using as proof that says:
1. what the story order was;
2. that the story stayed the same when they changed the leveling order.

Newsflash hint in regards of #2: absence of evidence (of the story order changing) is not evidence of absence (likewise). Which means you've got squat for #2. And to save you time, also for #1, because they don't even use the word story.


Which is kinda the opposite of what you said.

So you haven't even bothered watching the video yet? Not surprising. Keep at it though.

[Mehrunes]

You talk about context is me talking about environment and economics, no clue. So spare me.

For once try to substantiate the brilliance you fling in my direction. Because I clearly outlined what the context is. You're seemingly incapably of doing that, given how you instantly resorted to brilliance-flinging like a genius instead.

Go on, what exactly is suspect in me talking about context, eh? Especially since @Super Diccman, the person who started this discussion, apparently agrees with me on what the context was, judging by their later replies to you. In other words, you make me sad.

That's what I wrote though, if you read it. The story was already done, in zones, quests etc. The scaling came after, wich they said.

Except you tried to use that as proof for what the story order still is.

Which, imagine that, is not what I said (alas, words are hard). Just because they had a set (leveling, as per your own sources) order before and as such put certain quests in Azsuna doesn't mean the story order (about which all of your sources are utterly and completely silent, alas, reading still hard, even when it comes to one's own sources).

And them not removing profession quests out of Azsuna afterwards does not prove that Azsuna happens first in the story. Because, newsflash ye o brilliant genius, there's nothing about profession quests that require them to happen at the start of the story. Nor is there any part of their quest text that iproves that being the case.

Profession quests were put in Azsuna precisely because of the leveling path. Because having profession quests in the zone the players would be in first, not a zone that started the story. Because profession quests are meaningless for the story, but them being in the starting zones would be convenient from mechanical perspective. And since there was no longer a leveling path, they made sense pretty much nowhere so they left them as is.

I should ask someone else, because you have the same issue as me I guess.

Would you look at that, yet another case of your brilliant shit-flinging that you can't even substantiate. Totally did not see that coming.

I clearly addressed the issues in your argument. Multiple times. You have yet to actually address my counterarguments. Except for the case above. Where you thought I said the same thing as you did, when that was not the case.

So yeah, I totally have problem with words. Not the person who repeatedly chickens out from actual discussion whenever they argued themselves into a hole 1 km deep and resort to showcasing their infinite honesty instead. Riveting tale mon.

[Doffen]

I clearly addressed the issues in your argument. Multiple times. You have yet to actually address my counterarguments. Except for the case above. Where you thought I said the same thing as you did, when that was not the case. So would you look at that, yet another case of your petulant shit-flinging that you can't even substantiate. Totally did not see that coming.

I could see those insults coming though.

[Mehrunes]

and???? the alliance force would have no reason to know how the cows and boars saw each other and would have no reason to know they would run into the boars and all die. the alliance let the civ's go they didn't stop to murder them like who easily could have it was in no way shape or form a warcrime.

So what you're saying is that Alliance is patently retarded and has no clue about politics of the region they are in. Fascinating. Also, gross negligence like that is more often than not criminal.

I can't recall complete (feel free to correct if iam wrong) but don't they find out she's trying to get valkyr in the quest after this one? That's in skold ashil itself no?

Like, they know she is after something but don't find out exactly what until skold ashil sequence. Where those statue shield maidens are in stormheim, by the village.

Yes. Which plays precisely into the point. Only in Skold-Ashil do they finally get some intel. Which, once they get amounts to "whelp, we finally know Sylvanas is after something in Skold-Ashil but we have no clue what that something is" ("weirdly" enough, still complete radio silence about what power may she be after, which is the intel from the Azsuna book Alliance supposedly had).

And only after finding numerous Val'kyr memorabilia in Skold-Ashil in the next quest do they learn that she's after Sylvanas. Even though after learning that Sylvanas made a deal with Helya, a fallen Val'kyr queen, even an extremely handicapped rock would figure out that the "power of V..." (again, the book they supposedly obtained ages before) refers to Val'kyr. Especially with all the Val'kyr flying around and saving Horde and Alliance warriors alike. Sylvanas? Val'kyr? Impossibru.

Because the place was getting overrun by feral Worgen who forced the Forsaken out as well. Killing Liam certainly did nothing to break the spirits of the Gilneans and earned her a most bitter enemy.

What Feral Worgen? Forsaken were pushed out by Crowley's GLF and the 7th Legion. They then defeated both by the end of Silverpine, completely obliterating the 7th Legion forces, forcing Crowley to surrender and leave and making the Bloodfang Pack (angry at Crowley's decision) flee to Hillsbrad to conspire with Stormpikes instead.

Ah it was the original horde not the true horde #23664. My mistake.

I didn't even make a statement about various Hordes. By the time of the Second War the Forsaken didn't even exist.

And you wonder why you don't persuade anyone.

I'm sorry, am I supposed to take the baseless complaints about how Blizzard itself suffers from HORDE BIAS seriously?

You keep trying to construct this narrative. I said one time that I didn't like that Blizz doesn't present the story in game leading to confusion. Every time I've commented since has been a reply to your butthurt obsession with that comment.

Hence the "or", imagine that.

Do what? I have no idea what you're on about here.

You have no idea that you made at least three replies without any merit to me about how I "replied to too many posts" in the last thread, because you couldn't bother making a counterargument? Spinach is good for memory from what I head. Do give it a try.

Would that be when I realize that you are in no way interested in discussion, only in religious conversions?

And yet I am the one that consistently addresses the arguments addressed to me, while you are not. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

As per quest text, letting sylvannas get more valkyr means her armies become unstoppable or something.

It's the blizzard two pronged story line.

And what motivation would Sylvanas have to go after anyone with that army? She'd already have her perfect bulwark against the infinite, on a continent almost completely controlled by her and the Blood Elves. She already almost completely withdrew from the previous faction war after 4.0, so circa three years before it ended, and instead chilled in her safe kingdom.

I love how you casually just ignored the last post I wrote, because you got nothing to come up, instead coming with the usual insults. Embarrassing.

Oh noes, I missed one post. The horror. Which one, pray tell? Because from what I see after rechecking, I didn't respond to the one where you said you agree with me for once. But that was about a different subject than this one. And from your remark how I have "nothing to come up", a post where you agreed with me wouldn't really fit. Yet I addressed all other posts.

What you came up with was speculations, headcanon.

What I came up with is a logical interpretation of events based on why Sylvanas needs to create more Forsaken in the first place, which you keep ignoring. And as per usual, you have no actual counterargument against that. And once that the logical consistency of that argument finally dawned on you, you even dropped that tangent.

And don't say that anyone ignores lore, when you are the one who do this the most. Context, logic, words? Yeah, look it up.

Back up your accusations for once or stop boring me.

[Feanoro]

In my honest opinion none of these big scale horde attacks have anyone to blame except the Alliance for the amount of deaths.

"Not only are we killing you, it's your fault for dying." Just wow.

Garrosh WARNED and gave plenty of ample time for all citizens to leave Theramore. He flat out said he would not be responsible for deaths of citizens after he attacks.

Well then, all anyone has to do is declare they won't take responsibility? Got it. If he gave all this time for evacuations, why were there any deaths at all? With "ample time", it should have been completely clear and at least some form of defensive action prepared.

The alliance had used Theramore to send constant troops to kalimdor leading to all the bases built in the barrens and reinforcements to the NightElfs.

You mean the people who thought Garrosh had betrayed them (via Twilight Hammer tricks), and whom Garrosh made exactly no attempts to prove innocence? Screw that, a chance to make up for daddy issues!

The horde constantly needed resources within Night Elf territory because the Horde land is harsh and not good for farming or for lumber.

Orcs are too dense to have agriculture in the first place. It's far more important to somehow have resources to remodel Org with even more spikes and chains.

The night elves don't want the horde cutting down trees or using the land in such a way.

The Horde clear cuts areas and either blights or pollutes them (i.e. goblins). Who wouldn't want that in their backyard? Despite that, they had a trade agreement going until their people were murdered. Again, for the more foam at the mouth types here, the Twilight Hammer set this up. If there was any attempt whatsoever by Garrosh to diplomatically prove innocence, I'd be genuinely glad to learn of it. Until then, what was shown in game was Garrosh couldn't wait to grab his ax.

It was not till Varian in Mist of Pandaria put the elfs in place and showed them the way they do warfare is dated.

You mean the utterly cringe worthy scenario where a 10k year old commander is outclassed by the new guy we're trying to build up? All that showed was Blizz can't write worth a damn. Building one character up by trashing another more established character isn't even good enough to be called fan fiction.

I honestly miss Varian he was really the last smart leader the Alliance had.

Until they neutered him post Wrathgate.

Meanwhile the horde have a nice selection of well written leaders

Let's see "Rawr all shall serve the Lich Queen," "When Jaina tried for peace, she was well written. When I try for peace, I'm somehow a beta cuck cow...", "Hi I'm Lor... dammit, I deserve screen time too, get back here!" and "Honor! Never forsake it, unless it's convenient." Gallywix of all them is the most well written, and that's sad.

the Alliance leaders are written like garbage.

No argument there.

[Mehrunes]

This is where I agree with you. Because they didn't know. They only knew she was in Stormheim. But how did they know she was there, or on her way there? There is nothing else ingame or outside the game except that one quest in Aszuna that could tell. Explain that then? How did they know? Context right?

Because if it's not in game, it does not exist? Again, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. They could learn in any other way. As BtS shows, Baine was Anduin's pen pal. As we see at Vol'jin's BBQ, Tyrathan Khort was present in Durotar before Sylvanas sailed to Stormheim and could even chit chat with the players.

And you're once again trying to have your cake and eat it to. Alliance didn't know what Sylvanas was after? But they knew she going to Stormheim from the Azsuna book? The book that gave an indication what she was after, which the Alliance did not know about?

What's your story here, exactly? That Genn only read "Stormheim" part of that book, then threw it away?

Why do you think people go with that explanation? How can the alliance only players know there is another quest for Horde with another twist on the story? If you only play Horde, you wouldn't know the Alliance got a quest with intel, wich the Worgen NPC himself tell us that is it when we deliver it. You have done both sides yourself right?

How does what Alliance-only players know change anything in a discussion of what is lore? Them going with that explanation because they lack information doesn't make them right. Them continuing with that explanation even after the presence of the Horde quest about the book is pointed out to them and they are asked with a source for the Horde one not being canon (which they repeatedly ignore) makes them even less right.

[SleepsAtDay]

Doesn't change that it happened. Horde fans can't just move the goal posts because they can't accept their pet faction is the aggressor again.

I mean, Ashran’s been referenced nowhere since Warlords, and barely within it. And it takes place in a side zone in AU Draenor. Are you positive it happened? Did it really?

In any case, I actually agree with you that the Horde instigated. That’s fine. I’m not arguing with you over that. I’m just... Ashran. You’re trying to refute the notion that Genn instigated, a rather weak argument, by bringing up... Ashran. Isn’t there like, literally any other argument to make your point?

[Minikin]

Yes. Which plays precisely into the point. Only in Skold-Ashil do they finally get some intel. Which, once they get amounts to "whelp, we finally know Sylvanas is after something in Skold-Ashil but we have no clue what that something is" ("weirdly" enough, still complete radio silence about what power may she be after, which is the intel from the Azsuna book Alliance supposedly had).

And only after finding numerous Val'kyr memorabilia in Skold-Ashil in the next quest do they learn that she's after Sylvanas. Even though after learning that Sylvanas made a deal with Helya, a fallen Val'kyr queen, even an extremely handicapped rock would figure out that the "power of V..." (again, the book they supposedly obtained ages before) refers to Val'kyr. Especially with all the Val'kyr flying around and saving Horde and Alliance warriors alike. Sylvanas? Val'kyr? Impossibru.

wasnt disagreeing. was trying to recall. blizz played their two pronged story thing with that neutral quest in azsuna and stormhiem entry.

alliance biased people dont see that stormheim would have happened anyway. regardless of azsuna mission. Genn would have attacked sylvannas anyway, valkyr or no valkyr imprisonment.

horde biased people dont get that Genn doesnt and shouldnt give a damn about sylvannas. it would be way out of character. especially given what happen to and in gilneas.

outside of horde territory sylvannas' word or authority means squat to other powers. same as outside of alliance lands alliance kings and queens or w.es have no actual authority.

meaning, that she can cry all she wants about...but but but b-iam warchief! means nothing.
the only thing that can be claimed was that this was at a bad time, the legion was attacking. this was NOT however peace time. no treaty had been signed. and honestly Genn adhereing to that is just plain foolish anyway. Blizz has always played wow on this path to keep this teenage dream of faction pride going (its useless and stupid), to move the story on misunderstandings and "but he hit me first!"

I didn't even make a statement about various Hordes. By the time of the Second War the Forsaken didn't even exist.

i was joking here XD

[Doffen]

snip

Stop quoting me if you get so bored then. I have already said and backed up what we discussed, that you bring it up and demanding another round of the same is on you. You have not answered me about where the Alliance got the intel from that Sylvanas was in Stormheim though(okay now you actually answered)

As for Sylvanas, you don't know if she would have been satisfied by that. That's why it is a headcanon. Because what you tried to come up with had no base from the actual lore, since it didn't happen. There, one example of lore you ignore.

Btw, you seen a pattern of people that stops responding to you? It's not because you are right, but your behavior makes them lose interest. And it's not a win at all. It's just a sad sad story. I can be your friend if you need one.

[Feanoro]

I'm sorry, am I supposed to take the baseless complaints about how Blizzard itself suffers from HORDE BIAS seriously?

Given that it's been repeatedly demonstrated in this forum and can be further proven via resources like Wowhead that Blizzard frequently tells two different stories then declares the Horde one canon, refusing to see why anyone would think this is being obtuse. There's no shortage of out of game examples to lead someone to that conclusion as well.

You have no idea that you made at least three replies without any merit to me about how I "replied to too many posts" in the last thread

I can't wait for the one comment on that to morph into claims that I constantly rave about such. Hell, we're already up to three. You bitch at people who don't use forums the way you deem appropriate, and completely ignore common courtesy in replying to things that are several pages back and days or weeks old. I mention this, and here we are.

And yet I am the one that consistently addresses the arguments addressed to me, while you are not.

Yes, with thinly veiled insults, rages that they don't know The Truth, hypocritical use of the very tactics of which you accuse others, wild misrepresentations and exaggerations of what people actually say, arguing in bad faith by screaming the other person is a liar (because they clearly fear The Truth! or something), pure head canon, complete refusal to understand normal written context (or maybe you simply can't help it, I'm genuinely beginning to wonder), and general stonewalling to the point that I've seen multiple posters say you're not worth the effort. Obviously when multiple people say you're unpleasant to talk to, the common denominator is they're all wrong!

[Minikin]

And what motivation would Sylvanas have to go after anyone with that army? She'd already have her perfect bulwark against the infinite, on a continent almost completely controlled by her and the Blood Elves. She already almost completely withdrew from the previous faction war after 4.0, so circa three years before it ended, and instead chilled in her safe kingdom.

they gotta shove this stupid expansion faction war on us somehow. and to do it they are wrecking sylvannas and saurfang.

on the red side:
ones being used to troll the alliance while looking more and more psychopathic.
the other is just being stripped of all the glory he earned in vanilla

on the blue side:
we got a unicorn riding price bringing peace and manhood to the battlefield
the other is an understanding werewolf

in the middle:
we now have an undead light hybrid that we know will be used for something leading to possibly\
1. sarah windrunner kerrigan
2. a nice and loving forsaken faction with free hugs everywhere

honestly. HONESTLY. ill forgive all of this if they give the alliance an actual bad villian. like someone really horrible who attacks the horde first rather than a reactionary police force.

[Mehrunes]

It's not really a fleshed-out scenario, given that it was originally just a hypothetical. But in this case, I would assume that it would simply have been a formal trial of Rogers (and Genn by proxy) by the Alliance, to which the Horde would've been privy. Seeing the two excoriated for their actions in Stormheim would mollify the Forsaken people, and since Sylvanas can't "set the record straight" as concerns her activity in Stormheim it would be an Alliance political coup in any case.

But why can't she set the record straight? Desolate Council consisted of what? Let's say half returned to Sylvanas immediately and survived. That'd still put them at 24. And only some of them held reservations about her plans of immortality. Sylvanas holds much more sway over the Forsaken than the Council. Vide how there are no visible ripples of her dealing with a significant portion of it in BtS. If she could come out of that, she could come out of trying to make them immortal. The latter is a much easier tale to sell.

Garrosh nearly died because of his bravado in "As Our Fathers Before Us," almost putting an end to his insane dream of a resurgent Horde because of his foolishness. I think the parallels are pretty apt.

Garrosh almost dying due to his idiocy on Quillboar's home turf when vastly outnumbered is not even remotely comparable to an entire nation getting obliterated by a mongrel race. The Horde didn't need Garrosh to resurge. Or to resurge at all. It was already doing well, it just wasn't racially pure enough for his liking. If Garrosh died in that pit Quillboars sure as hell would not swarm over Horde lands like Gnolls did in Stormwind.

P7 -75 is 75 years before the opening of the Dark Portal - we are currently in PY 32 as of the end of Legion, so that's nearly a century ago. You're saying for instance the America of 1913 is practically the same as the America of today, then? Stormwind only began expanding in earnest following its victory in the Gnoll War (when it proved it could persist without outside aid).

I know it's nearly a century. Did America of 1913 get butt fucked by an army of Gnolls only to be followed by Trolls and Orcs a few decades later? Or any other army? No? My point was quite clearly about a mere century is not enough time for a country to recuperate from three catastrophic wars. Not that it'd be the same nation. It didn't have enough time to get up from its knees after 3 of what, ~5 generations , were gutted?

"Getting stomped" is a bit of an overreach - the losses of Stormwind during the Gurubashi War are counted only as "moderate." Medivh ended the war decisively for Stormwind via shock and awe tactics, decimating the main Gurubashi strike-force as it was assaulting Stormwind, but the kingdom wasn't in danger of being sacked prior to this. Had the war crept on Stormwind probably still would've won through attrition but the losses would've been greater; Medivh's decisive action helped in this regard.

They nearly sacked the capital...

This is Warcraft after all - there's no kingdom or nation on Azeroth that doesn't have a history replete with conflict of all kinds. And each time one of these nation-states is seemingly destroyed it has a tendency to rise up in a new form, stronger and greater than ever (this is true of both the Alliance and the Horde).

There's also no nation that got as demolished as hard and as often Stormwind, yet is somehow supposed to be the backbone of a global super-power. Stormwind being in that position is like the Zandalari or even the Amani being a backbone of a global super-power. Their recent track record of repeated significant losses kinda makes that notion stand in direct opposition to suspension of disbelief.

[saintminya]

Doffen please stop, you've provided nothing of quality in pages. Personal complaint sure, but its a bit annoying weeding through all the muck.

OT: The attack is justified on the grounds of SI:7 killing miners and the Alliance weaponizing the Azerite before the Horde. Most importantly though, it is justified due to Teldrassil being the last Alliance hub on Kalimdor. Its a bit like Theramore; a bastion of Alliance forces way too close to the Horde capitol.

Oh, and as a little aside, I find it really amusing how so many QQ threads about Teldrassil pop up everyday, and yet hardly any spring up about the assault on the Undercity. I understand that the Burning of Teldrassil can be seen as tragic (and until the scenario drops I don't feel like weighing in on that aspect,) but both the Undercity and Teldrassil are valid targets of war.

[Shinrael]

ignores all the bad shit sylvanas is doing. The state of the horde

Um, why is it considered "bad" again? Why is wanting to kill your enemy a bad thing O.o? In a fantasy setting in a franchise the name of which begins with "War".

[Doffen]

Doffen please stop, you've provided nothing of quality in pages. Personal complaint sure, but its a bit annoying weeding through all the muck.

OT: The attack is justified on the grounds of SI:7 killing miners and the Alliance weaponizing the Azerite before the Horde. Most importantly though, it is justified due to Teldrassil being the last Alliance hub on Kalimdor. Its a bit like Theramore; a bastion of Alliance forces way too close to the Horde capitol.

Oh, and as a little aside, I find it really amusing how so many QQ threads about Teldrassil pop up everyday, and yet hardly any spring up about the assault on the Undercity. I understand that the Burning of Teldrassil can be seen as tragic (and until the scenario drops I don't feel like weighing in on that aspect,) but both the Undercity and Teldrassil are valid targets of war.

Oh someone that doesn't agree with me tells me to stop

[Minikin]

Um, why is it considered "bad" again? Why is wanting to kill your enemy a bad thing O.o? In a fantasy setting in a franchise the name of which begins with "War".

Out! Out with your logic! We will have none of it here!

[Feanoro]

Oh someone that doesn't agree with me tells me to stop

Well yeah, you're not following the "Horde dindu nuffin, they're misunderstood" rule.

[Aucald]

But why can't she set the record straight? Desolate Council consisted of what? Let's say half returned to Sylvanas immediately and survived. That'd still put them at 24. And only some of them held reservations about her plans of immortality. Sylvanas holds much more sway over the Forsaken than the Council. Vide how there are no visible ripples of her dealing with a significant portion of it in BtS. If she could come out of that, she could come out of trying to make them immortal. The latter is a much easier tale to sell.

The Council seemed to *not* want to be immortal, though - they essentially wanted their right to die, as it were. The nascent core of the council, formed by Parqual and Velcinda, were set against the rumors that Sylvanas wanted the Forsaken to endure forever - this was well and before the Gathering was a thing that was proposed by Anduin and Calia. Sylvanas could certainly make her pronouncement now, if she were inclined - given that the only members of the Council left were those left embittered by rejection, but if the Gathering had not happened this would be harder sell, made even more difficult by the theoretical admission of Rogers and/or Genn of acting rashly in Stormheim.

Garrosh almost dying due to his idiocy on Quillboar's home turf when vastly outnumbered is not even remotely comparable to an entire nation getting obliterated by a mongrel race. The Horde didn't need Garrosh to resurge. Or to resurge at all. It was already doing well, it just wasn't racially pure enough for his liking. If Garrosh died in that pit Quillboars sure as hell would not swarm over Horde lands like Gnolls did in Stormwind.

Garrosh and his elite Kor'kron represent what Garrosh thought was the best of the Horde - there to make the peace-seeking Tauren eat crow, as it were. They then got their asses handed to them by a bunch of Quillboar. Contrast this to the burgeoning nation of Stormwind, the shining jewel of the modern Alliance, nearly getting stomped by Gnolls in their early years. You don't see the parallels there?

I know it's nearly a century. Did America of 1913 get butt fucked by an army of Gnolls only to be followed by Trolls and Orcs a few decades later? Or any other army? No? My point was quite clearly about a mere century is not enough time for a country to recuperate from three catastrophic wars. Not that it'd be the same nation. It didn't have enough time to get up from its knees after 3 of what, ~5 generations , were gutted?

Well, no, mainly because Gnolls don't exist in the real world. Did America have the same military build-up, infrastructure, world power, and ordinance that it has now? Also no. A century is a long time for a nation to grow and expand, which is exactly what Stormwind did following the Gnoll War. It went from its tiny holdings in Elwynn to all the way to Stranglethorn Vale, which is where it begin rousing the quiescent Gurubashi tribe.

They nearly sacked the capital...

They failed to make it past the gates of the city before being obliterated by the Guardian's might. To "nearly" sack a city you would, definitionally, need to get inside it to some degree.

There's also no nation that got as demolished as hard and as often Stormwind, yet is somehow supposed to be the backbone of a global super-power. Stormwind being in that position is like the Zandalari or even the Amani being a backbone of a global super-power. Their recent track record of repeated significant losses kinda makes that notion stand in direct opposition to suspension of disbelief.

Through some alchemy of argumentation you've somehow managed to make Stormwind's victories over the Gnolls, then the Gurubashi, into defeats? Stormwind didn't lose to the Gnolls, though it was a close thing - they defeated them by enacting a surgical strike on their Packlord, which threw the tribes into disarray. They were victorious, and in that victory began to swell their holdings immensely. The same with the Gurubashi - they *defeated* the Gurubashi and began claiming large swathes of land in so doing. It wasn't until the First War that Stormwind actually lost, and this time to a group of extraterrestrial invaders from a miltaristic hell-world whose leadership (I remind you) were being informed by Stormwind's erstwhile superweapon in the form of the Guardian (secretly possessed by an alien/demon himself). Medivh/Sargeras also softened Stormwind up considerably by killing anyone who was on his trail, and engineering the death of King Llane via the ensorcelled Garona. The Old Horde had a good deal of help bringing down the first incarnation of Stormwind.

[Mehrunes]

Given that it's been repeatedly demonstrated in this forum and can be further proven via resources like Wowhead that Blizzard frequently tells two different stories then declares the Horde one canon, refusing to see why anyone would think this is being obtuse. There's no shortage of out of game examples to lead someone to that conclusion as well.

Do give examples. I'll start: Chronicle v3 makes it so that Alliance canonically did more raids than the Horde. Oh noes, dat ALLIANCE BIAS.

[Doffen]

Well yeah, you're not following the "Horde dindu nuffin, they're misunderstood" rule.

Yeah I don't get that. So what if the Horde is "morally grey" the most, horde-players should embrace it.

Using that blight on the Alliance when I have tried the Undercity-event on beta, so satisfying. Those who take the mask only, get out.