Was Velcinda "Elsie" Benton the only loyal Desolate Councilor?

[Aucald]

I wasn't sure whether or not I was just looking at Shadows and trying to infer what the rest of the world was from them, is why I asked if you thought it was plausible. So that's a huge help for me, thank you!

And while I understand the idea of speculation being important, the Dev's have stated several times now that their intent wasn't to make Sylvanas look as evil as she has come across in the past months. Set the character was supposed to be portraying to as morally Grey, someone who does enough good things to not be a villain and enough bad things to not be a hero.

So I'm actually taking a look at the material with the intent to find situations where she was justified or in the right morally speaking. So far the pickings are Slim! If it turns out that's all of the desolate Council except for Elsie were actually Traitors that would go a long way to making her actions less clearly monstrous. And honestly aside from this situation, the only things she has done that could be considered morally good would be standing in the Wisp wall to protect her soldiers, and making sure to evacuate the entire population of undercity while risking herself to do so.

Pretty much everything else is morally reprehensible as it currently has been presented... There is some possible mollification if the events in ashenvale and darkshore are as I currently suspect being intentionally obscured by Azshara.

In this context, I would say the most salient aspect of the argument isn't whether the majority of the Desolate Council was or wasn't loyal to Sylvanas or the Forsaken, it is actually that Sylvanas herself didn't know the answer to this question and ordered their massacre regardless of sure knowledge. That, we actually do know from the text of "Before the Storm" - Sylvanas suspects the Desolate Council members who didn't return early from the Gathering (with their hearts duly hardened), even Velcinda/Elsie isn't safe from this suspicion as Sylvanas suspects Elsie well before Calia's revealing, when she simply acknowledges Anduin Wrynn from afar.

Now, as for the question of whether or not that makes Sylvanas evil, or a monster, that's more subjective and harder to pin down. Sylvanas doesn't know or understand Anduin in the same way we are permitted do (e.g. she can't know his thoughts, or inner drives, as they're presented in the narrative), and given the state of the political reality between the Horde and Alliance she has precious little reason to trust him or to take him at his word. Anduin, too, has to keep up the appearance of strength - and while he *desperately* wants this whole Gathering thing to work out (largely from a sense of spiritual altruism on his part, being a Priest of the Light) he can't make direct or indirect concessions to a party hostile to the government he represents.

Of course, Sylvanas realizes that Calia's folly isn't a product of machinations on Anduin's part pretty early on - it was her initial theory, but a quick view of the facts of the case makes her see (rightly) that Calia is acting alone and out of misplaced compassion for "her people." What does Sylvanas do with this knowledge? She capitalizes on it quickly, seeing the chance to kill a possible usurper to her throne without invoking an incident as well as liquidating possible defectors or future agitators within her own ranks (in the form of the remaining Desolate Council members on the field).

Sylvanas takes advantage of the situation, in other words - for her own gain. Does that make her evil, or a monster? Maybe so, or maybe not - I would say it makes her amoral at the least. An argument could be made that allowing dissent into the ranks of the Forsaken would be worse than purging it, especially in light that the future holds only more conflict (by Sylvanas' own designs) with the very people that the Desolate Council wants to make amends with at the Gathering. That in purging them at Arathi she is sparing them a worse fate later on, when they would have to directly or indirectly raise arms against the friends, family, and loved ones they were trying to reconcile with.

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I think the issue with this free will thing is, what if the forsaken want a different leader. Sylvannas can't die in the normal sense, and when she does in the abnormal sense she gets rezzed.

I don't mean they hate her and want her gone (side note: she admits she is not universally loved like Anduin is), but as in a change of leadership and choices. We know she doesn't think highly of the desolate council.

As of right now the three options of, if you are raised forsaken are:
1. Join sylvannas
2. Go your own way
3. Return to the grave

The problem with 2. Is that now if you exercise your free will to go alliance you might just get moved immediately to option 3.

And the problem with 3 is, we don't know what happens to forsaken that die (sylvannas went to a horrible place but besides that we have no confirmation of that being the destination of all of them). Due to this, wouldn't the person that is raised be pissed that you raised them, leave them really with just 1 option, claim they still have free will and yet now they are worse of if they chose otherwise.

So in the end (this would never happen I know) what would sylvannas do if one day the forsaken decide she is no longer their queen?
(- they alluded to this when she said "the only thing I can do to hold on to my kingdom)
(-blizz has a reason they made Calia the way she is, a hybrid)
She might be killing defectors as traitors but killing the rest had a little more to it than that.

The Forsaken can't have a different leader - rightly or wrongly, the Forsaken as a people derive directly from the person of Sylvanas (in both the figurative and literal sense, as the case may be). Though I doubt the majority of Forsaken would ever rise up against their beloved Banshee Queen, if the situation were to change it would still make no difference - Sylvanas is the quintessential hydraulic despot, and her coalition (herself, the Val'kyr that are bound directly to her, Nathanos, and the RAS) is duly small and held entirely in her thrall. She is, quite literally, the means of production for the Forsaken race. Everyone else in the ranks of the Forsaken are a powerless selectorate with no real selection, and no means to force the issue. As it stands, Sylvanas would destroy her own power base (the Forsaken themselves) before she would capitulate to a replacement.

Sylvanas does permit Forsaken to leave her service, but not to the Alliance. Of course, the same could be said for the whole Horde, really - an individual Orc may opt not to leave in Ogrimmar and be a mercenary or a sellsword, but working for the Alliance is still going to be a death sentence if it is discovered by other Horde members. As for the Forsaken and death - no, we really don't know what happens, but that doesn't really change their lot as we don't what happens with living individuals either, and the Warcraft universe is one where literal demigods can interfere with or wholly shape an afterlife scenario directly.

[yamix]

Sylvanas is incredibly insecure at this point. The elves and goblins are her only friends, and the elves will only tolerate so much, and the goblins' loyalty isn't to be depended on. I don't think she has much time left - paranoid leaders are bad for themselves and their people.

Frankly, I'm surprised she wasted such an excellent opportunity to install spies and sabotage Stormwind from within. Not to mention the anger of the humans at Anduin for possibly accepting the undead - she had more to gain than to lose.

[Dellis0991]

They worked alot of parallels in that book
1. Anduins feelings on touching azerite vs Sylvannas' feelings.
2. How Anduin talks to subjects vs Sylvannas' (Anduin vs Rogers compared to sylvannas vs runetotem)
3. Anduins relation with Benton, vs what Sylvannas' does to his wife.

My concern is that they keep saying morally grey but doing these comparos makes anduin some Golden child (pun intended) and makes sylvannas look monstrous.

I am however very very excited to know what Sylvannas' will do when she finds out Calia is alive and what she is now

I'm betting Sylvanas will probably try to do some heavy damage control to keep the forsaken in line. I'm also betting we see a some defectors and probably some people will voice outrage of "If we have free will then why can't we choose our own path" ...if the forsaken was blind to flaws of Sylvanas this won't be something to turn away from. As for Anduin it sad that his 3 lies may not be so horrendous as we thought (the first lie is ridiculous....as it not a lie to everyone but a lie he tells himself) I wonder what the other 2 will be and by god they better be bad because nobody is that clean of character except for maybe Faol.

[Minikin]

In this context, I would say the most salient aspect of the argument isn't whether the majority of the Desolate Council was or wasn't loyal to Sylvanas or the Forsaken, it is actually that Sylvanas herself didn't know the answer to this question and ordered their massacre regardless of sure knowledge. That, we actually do know from the text of "Before the Storm" - Sylvanas suspects the Desolate Council members who didn't return early from the Gathering (with their hearts duly hardened), even Velcinda/Elsie isn't safe from this suspicion as Sylvanas suspects Elsie well before Calia's revealing, when she simply acknowledges Anduin Wrynn from afar.

Now, as for the question of whether or not that makes Sylvanas evil, or a monster, that's more subjective and harder to pin down. Sylvanas doesn't know or understand Anduin in the same way we are permitted do (e.g. she can't know his thoughts, or inner drives, as they're presented in the narrative), and given the state of the political reality between the Horde and Alliance she has precious little reason to trust him or to take him at his word. Anduin, too, has to keep up the appearance of strength - and while he *desperately* wants this whole Gathering thing to work out (largely from a sense of spiritual altruism on his part, being a Priest of the Light) he can't make direct or indirect concessions to a party hostile to the government he represents.

Of course, Sylvanas realizes that Calia's folly isn't a product of machinations on Anduin's part pretty early on - it was her initial theory, but a quick view of the facts of the case makes her see (rightly) that Calia is acting alone and out of misplaced compassion for "her people." What does Sylvanas do with this knowledge? She capitalizes on it quickly, seeing the chance to kill a possible usurper to her throne without invoking an incident as well as liquidating possible defectors or future agitators within her own ranks (in the form of the remaining Desolate Council members on the field).

Sylvanas takes advantage of the situation, in other words - for her own gain. Does that make her evil, or a monster? Maybe so, or maybe not - I would say it makes her amoral at the least. An argument could be made that allowing dissent into the ranks of the Forsaken would be worse than purging it, especially in light that the future holds only more conflict (by Sylvanas' own designs) with the very people that the Desolate Council wants to make amends with at the Gathering. That in purging them at Arathi she is sparing them a worse fate later on, when they would have to directly or indirectly raise arms against the friends, family, and loved ones they were trying to reconcile with.

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The Forsaken can't have a different leader - rightly or wrongly, the Forsaken as a people derive directly from the person of Sylvanas (in both the figurative and literal sense, as the case may be). Though I doubt the majority of Forsaken would ever rise up against their beloved Banshee Queen, if the situation were to change it would still make no difference - Sylvanas is the quintessential hydraulic despot, and her coalition (herself, the Val'kyr that are bound directly to her, Nathanos, and the RAS) is duly small and held entirely in her thrall. She is, quite literally, the means of production for the Forsaken race. Everyone else in the ranks of the Forsaken are a powerless selectorate with no real selection, and no means to force the issue. As it stands, Sylvanas would destroy her own power base (the Forsaken themselves) before she would capitulate to a replacement.

Sylvanas does permit Forsaken to leave her service, but not to the Alliance. Of course, the same could be said for the whole Horde, really - an individual Orc may opt not to leave in Ogrimmar and be a mercenary or a sellsword, but working for the Alliance is still going to be a death sentence if it is discovered by other Horde members. As for the Forsaken and death - no, we really don't know what happens, but that doesn't really change their lot as we don't what happens with living individuals either, and the Warcraft universe is one where literal demigods can interfere with or wholly shape an afterlife scenario directly.

I kind of agree. Like I know they won't just have the forsaken rebel against sylvannas. That's too Garrosh like, tried and done.

But I do wonder what the reasoning is behind not just ressurectinh Calia, but as a hybrid undead. And how she now feels more at peace than before.

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I'm betting Sylvanas will probably try to do some heavy damage control to keep the forsaken in line. I'm also betting we see a some defectors and probably some people will voice outrage of "If we have free will then why can't we choose our own path" ...if the forsaken was blind to flaws of Sylvanas this won't be something to turn away from. As for Anduin it sad that his 3 lies may not be so horrendous as we thought (the first lie is ridiculous....as it not a lie to everyone but a lie he tells himself) I wonder what the other 2 will be and by god they better be bad because nobody is that clean of character except for maybe Faol.

Maybe Anduin let's lose a bunch of leper gnomes in the sunwell chamber. Profusely denying he has a hand in it.

I feel like since they already knocked one warchief out by loot piniata way, they might just give sylvannas a redepmtion path. Sarah sylvannas Kerrigan Windrunner

[Aucald]

I kind of agree. Like I know they won't just have the forsaken rebel against sylvannas. That's too Garrosh like, tried and done.

But I do wonder what the reasoning is behind not just ressurectinh Calia, but as a hybrid undead. And how she now feels more at peace than before.

Calia strongly empathizes with the Forsaken - the people butchered by her brother and raised against their will into undeath. Her rebirth as an undead herself cements this - she was uncomfortable living in the shadow of Arthas and his actions, and a profound survivor's guilt that she never dealt with (and may never have been able to deal with) impelled her to recontexualize her own existence. As, well, whatever she is now, she is truly a new and different person and so capable of moving on with her "life" as well as being conceptually closer to the people she recognizes herself as belonging to (the "survivors" of Lordaeron).

[Steampunkette]

Snip

The thing is I don't feel like she took advantage of the situation. Taking advantage of the situation suggest that she already intended to kill everyone, which her previous thoughts and actions indicate is not the case. to me it feels more like she was reacting to Calia being there. To the idea of anduin preparing a coup against her. Before that point she was ready to welcome everyone home except any defectors. That's why she blew the horn and immediately thought to herself: now to see who comes when called.

She already thought that the Desolate Council would destroy itself without her interaction, as it was. I think blowing the horn may have been taking advantage of the situation because if there had been defectors, but not the entire cluster, she could have spun that to make the rest of the desolate council members who returned from the field and their families appear to be Allied with the defectors. Which would only weaken their position further... And destroy the council even more fully and quickly.

But with Calia it was pure reaction. Pure emotional response rather than calculated plan. So she sent the Dark Rangers to Kill Them All. Her anger at the thought of anduin manipulating her and the situation to his own Advantage was incredibly upsetting, and her reaction was to lash out.

As cold as she may seem, Sylvanas is a creature of emotion. And we cannot disregard emotion in her motivations. She doesn't just feel fear or paranoia, she feels anger and love as well. She may pretend not to feel positive emotions, and she may be honest about how distant they feel, but it's very clear that she feels.

I feel like a lot of people are looking at her as an emotionless being calculating every possibility and trying to take advantage from every situation with no more emotional depth than your average puddle. But those people also don't really comprehend why she doesn't kill her sisters. Why she made Nathanos pretty. Or why she stands on the battlements of Lordaeron, risking her own existence to save others.

[Aucald]

The thing is I don't feel like she took advantage of the situation. Taking advantage of the situation suggest that she already intended to kill everyone, which her previous thoughts and actions indicate is not the case. to me it feels more like she was reacting to Calia being there. To the idea of anduin preparing a coup against her. Before that point she was ready to welcome everyone home except any defectors. That's why she blew the horn and immediately thought to herself: now to see who comes when called.

She already thought that the Desolate Council would destroy itself without her interaction, as it was. I think blowing the horn may have been taking advantage of the situation because if there had been defectors, but not the entire cluster, she could have spun that to make the rest of the desolate council members who returned from the field and their families appear to be Allied with the defectors. Which would only weaken their position further... And destroy the council even more fully and quickly.

But with Calia it was pure reaction. Pure emotional response rather than calculated plan. So she sent the Dark Rangers to Kill Them All. Her anger at the thought of anduin manipulating her and the situation to his own Advantage was incredibly upsetting, and her reaction was to lash out.

As cold as she may seem, Sylvanas is a creature of emotion. And we cannot disregard emotion in her motivations. She doesn't just feel fear or paranoia, she feels anger and love as well. She may pretend not to feel positive emotions, and she may be honest about how distant they feel, but it's very clear that she feels.

I feel like a lot of people are looking at her as an emotionless being calculating every possibility and trying to take advantage from every situation with no more emotional depth than your average puddle. But those people also don't really comprehend why she doesn't kill her sisters. Why she made Nathanos pretty. Or why she stands on the battlements of Lordaeron, risking her own existence to save others.

I don't think it necessarily requires planning ahead to take advantage of a developing situation, per se; Sylvanas took advantage of the situation as it developed - and she was more than prepared to re-frame specific events to her own advantage, as she did when justifying her purge to Nathanos (who was surprisingly upset with Sylvanas massacring her own people). Her initial reaction was to Calia, but she instantly schools herself and sees Calia's reaction for what it was, a spur-of-the-moment and emotional outburst. Sylvanas, on the other hand, is cool and collected - and this is a book in which the various characters' inner thoughts are more or less privy to us, so if she were reacting emotionally the narrative should convey this to us to some degree. I don't think it does here, Sylvanas is collected and dreadfully practical about what must be done. Moreso, she relishes the chance to rub Calia's death in Anduin's face as she takes the field herself. She knew (at that point) that Anduin didn't have anything to do with what was occurring, so anger with him doesn't seem like a factor in her actions.

I don't disagree Sylvanas is a creature of emotions, though; and I think her motivations are far more complex than those of just a complete monster or psychopath. Controlling the Forsaken and security the loyalty of people like Nathanos *requires* a degree of detached coldness, and it would be very easy for Sylvanas to go completely out of control and lose herself utterly to baser emotions (this is a state I think she is closer to than her cold and aloof demeanor seems to portray). There is only a tiny thread that anchors Sylvanas to her own essential humanity (the real-world kind and not the Warcraft race) - a kind of love for Nathanos, a sense of loyalty to the Forsaken (beyond her view of them as arrows in her quiver or her bulwark against the Void), and memories of what she was in the fullness of life. Emotionlessness is Sylvanas' armor against her current state, and against a world that views her as an eldritch abomination (both for what she is, and what she has done because of what she is).

[Steampunkette]

I don't have access to my copy of before the storm while I'm at work, but I think if you read the section about Sylvanas realizing Calia is on the field just before she gives the order you'll see what I mean. She's very dramatic about the child that ought to be dead, there's no real indication in that section of her planning it's just these are the things that I am thinking about that I am feeling about her.

I also don't feel as though it was an instantaneous realization that it was Calia acting on her own. I understand that she does realize it, eventually. But I think it happened after she gave the order to kill everyone.

After the trigger was pulled, so to speak. And after that it was dealing with the consequences of her emotional outburst.

[Jastall]

They're a bit too much of the angelic self-pitying opposite extreme for me, but I generally agree. I'd like more Vosses and Bartholomews and fewer Nathanoses, even if I generally prefer the Sylvanas Forsaken to whatever Blizzard might inflict on us with Calia further on.

Oh, I certainly wouldn't want Blizzard to go towards the opposite extreme and have Light Undead which are most likely to be just humans with glowing eyes.

Sadly with the whole Light vs Void and other dichotomies set up by the story, it would seem they favor opposed extremes over more pragmatic or approachable viewpoints.

[Kithelle]

Or you are you again, being a total fanboy of the lamest Villain Sue since Ramsay Bolton.



A friend who is in a bookclub for special people told be about it, claimed it read itself like the writer is a total retard.

Pretty much that...

They say they are free but claim they aren't slaves when they obviously are, they claim they aren't forced to be servants of Sylvanas but if they don't serve her they die obviously. But then again he will defend Sylvanas of anything and everything...better off arguing with a brick wall...because it at least wont leave you wanting to bash your head against it.

[Aucald]

I don't have access to my copy of before the storm while I'm at work, but I think if you read the section about Sylvanas realizing Calia is on the field just before she gives the order you'll see what I mean. She's very dramatic about the child that ought to be dead, there's no real indication in that section of her planning it's just these are the things that I am thinking about that I am feeling about her.

I also don't feel as though it was an instantaneous realization that it was Calia acting on her own. I understand that she does realize it, eventually. But I think it happened after she gave the order to kill everyone.

After the trigger was pulled, so to speak. And after that it was dealing with the consequences of her emotional outburst.

I just read the passages from pgs. 250-270. Her reaction to Calia is a visceral one, but that mostly rests on the legacy Calia represents - as it says in the book: Calia Menethil. Calia confronts Elsie on pg. 257, which is when Sylvanas begins to have misgivings she can't rightly explain (probably picking up on the consternation surrounding Calia revealing herself to Elsie). Sylvanas then proclaims (without much in the way of evidence for it) that the Council was defecting, which Nathanos attempts to confirm. It is then (pg. 258) that Sylvanas sounds the horn signaling it is time for the Gathering to end, to determine who comes back to her when called. One of the Forsaken priestesses then reports to Sylvanas that she recognized Calia Menethil with her hood off, and then asks for her orders as Sylvanas considers the ramifications and reasons for Calia's presence her (wondering if it is Anduin that has planned this).

Cut to pg. 259, which is actually shortly before the horn sounds, as Calia confronts Elsie and Elsie declares her loyalty to the Banshee Queen. The horn sounds (the one where Sylvanas was just beginning to feel something wrong) and Elsie, in turn, calls for the Councilors to retreat from the field (presumably back to Galen's Fall). Anduin section rewinds time as well, as he hears the horn for retreat and recognizes that something dangerous is about to happen - something unplanned for. He sees Calia reveal herself, and then Faol exhorting his fellow priests to retreat from the field back to the Alliance pitch, while Elsie and Calia are still conversing. Calia then proclaims her presences and entreats the Forsaken to run toward the Alliance keep. At that moment, the Dark Rangers take the field, killing the Council members *starting* with Elsie Benton (the first depicted to die in the book). Calia becomes more impassioned at seeing the Council members falling, and then we are shown everyone running pell-mell toward various locations as Anduin reflects on the fact that the Dark Rangers are killing their own and not Anduin's forces (pg. 262).

Pg. 264 Calia admits the plan, such as it was, was a product of herself and Parqual. Next section of pg. 264 we observe Sylvanas and Nathanos discussing Sylvanas' command to have the Dark Rangers kill the Council members, as Nathanos rather passionately says that some were returning to Galen's Fall, and Sylvanas justifying her actions by saying that may still have been traitors at heart, only returning out of fear of discovery. She then admits to Nathanos that she is aware that these goings-on aren't Anduin's doings, "I don't think the boy-king arranged this. It was stupid. He is naive, but he is not stupid." Also the text notes that Sylvanas' initial suspicion had evaporated quickly. Then, which I consider the cementing claim as to her emotional state, she states: "One of the Desolate Council's desires was not to be reborn again and again. So I have given them two gifts today. A reunion with their loved ones and their finals deaths." I don't think you can truly be much colder or practical than that, really.

[Steampunkette]

I just read the passages from pgs. 250-270. Her reaction to Calia is a visceral one, but that mostly rests on the legacy Calia represents - as it says in the book: Calia Menethil. Calia confronts Elsie on pg. 257, which is when Sylvanas begins to have misgivings she can't rightly explain (probably picking up on the consternation surrounding Calia revealing herself to Elsie). Sylvanas then proclaims (without much in the way of evidence for it) that the Council was defecting, which Nathanos attempts to confirm. It is then (pg. 258) that Sylvanas sounds the horn signaling it is time for the Gathering to end, to determine who comes back to her when called. One of the Forsaken priestesses then reports to Sylvanas that she recognized Calia Menethil with her hood off, and then asks for her orders as Sylvanas considers the ramifications and reasons for Calia's presence her (wondering if it is Anduin that has planned this).

Cut to pg. 259, which is actually shortly before the horn sounds, as Calia confronts Elsie and Elsie declares her loyalty to the Banshee Queen. The horn sounds (the one where Sylvanas was just beginning to feel something wrong) and Elsie, in turn, calls for the Councilors to retreat from the field (presumably back to Galen's Fall). Anduin section rewinds time as well, as he hears the horn for retreat and recognizes that something dangerous is about to happen - something unplanned for. He sees Calia reveal herself, and then Faol exhorting his fellow priests to retreat from the field back to the Alliance pitch, while Elsie and Calia are still conversing. Calia then proclaims her presences and entreats the Forsaken to run toward the Alliance keep. At that moment, the Dark Rangers take the field, killing the Council members *starting* with Elsie Benton (the first depicted to die in the book). Calia becomes more impassioned at seeing the Council members falling, and then we are shown everyone running pell-mell toward various locations as Anduin reflects on the fact that the Dark Rangers are killing their own and not Anduin's forces (pg. 262).

Pg. 264 Calia admits the plan, such as it was, was a product of herself and Parqual. Next section of pg. 264 we observe Sylvanas and Nathanos discussing Sylvanas' command to have the Dark Rangers kill the Council members, as Nathanos rather passionately says that some were returning to Galen's Fall, and Sylvanas justifying her actions by saying that may still have been traitors at heart, only returning out of fear of discovery. She then admits to Nathanos that she is aware that these goings-on aren't Anduin's doings, "I don't think the boy-king arranged this. It was stupid. He is naive, but he is not stupid." Also the text notes that Sylvanas' initial suspicion had evaporated quickly. Then, which I consider the cementing claim as to her emotional state, she states: "One of the Desolate Council's desires was not to be reborn again and again. So I have given them two gifts today. A reunion with their loved ones and their finals deaths." I don't think you can truly be much colder or practical than that, really.

I agree that it's cold and practical to say that, but that's after the fact. Sylvanas also very clearly in the comics makes the decision not to have her sisters killed on an emotional basis thanks to Versesa's plea before coldly stating that she wants them to suffer a bit more in life... She's covering up her emotions when she does that. Hiding pain behind a wall of ice.

Also her basis for thinking that the desolate council is defecting is that they're moving around and some arewalking towards the keep. Also you've just highlighted something else interesting Without Really realizing it I think.

Elsie was the first one killed. Why? Did Sylvanas specifically ask the Dark Rangers to Target her? It's certainly not impossible. but what if the reason is simply that she was closest? I think that could represent another piece of evidence for the theory that the rest of the desolate Council were defecting. If she was the closest and hadn't been moving around that would mean everyone else walked past her toward the keep.

[Aucald]

I agree that it's cold and practical to say that, but that's after the fact. Sylvanas also very clearly in the comics makes the decision not to have her sisters killed on an emotional basis thanks to Versesa's plea before coldly stating that she wants them to suffer a bit more in life... She's covering up her emotions when she does that. Hiding pain behind a wall of ice.

"After the fact" implies that she had considerable time to cogitate and reflect - this is something she says directly after sending out her Dark Rangers but before she takes the field to personally slay Calia Menethil. So no, in this case I would say she says this in the proverbial heat of the moment, and isn't covering much of anything.

Also her basis for thinking that the desolate council is defecting is that they're moving around and some arewalking towards the keep. Also you've just highlighted something else interesting Without Really realizing it I think.

Elsie was the first one killed. Why? Did Sylvanas specifically ask the Dark Rangers to Target her? It's certainly not impossible. but what if the reason is simply that she was closest? I think that could represent another piece of evidence for the theory that the rest of the desolate Council were defecting. If she was the closest and hadn't been moving around that would mean everyone else walked past her toward the keep.

Sylvanas was actively looking for signs of betrayal - it's the psychological version of the phenomenon of pareidolia, she's seeing a pattern (of defection or betrayal) where one may not even exist before anything can even be confirmed. As for Elsie being killed first, I think this was likely because she was easily identifiable - she was the de facto head of the Desolate Council and the most visible target in terms of the Dark Rangers' presumed kill-list. No idea if Sylvanas specifically singled her out as we aren't privy to her actually issuing the command to kill the Council members to the Dark Rangers, but even if she didn't it's not a leap to assume they would start at the top of the list and work their way systematically down. I imagine the Gathering was more or less a chaotic knot of people milling about before all hell broke loose - some Forsaken and Humans closer to Galen's Fall, and others closer to the Alliance Keep, with a kind of festival air to the proceedings. In my mind's eye I would place Elsie and Calia at more or less the center of the goings-on - as Elsie had no one to really see at the Gathering (with her husband in life newly deceased) I would think she was probably just milling about, observing and taking note, generally delighting at how well things were going considering. So some on the Desolate Council were likely closer to Galen's Fall than she was, and some were further (and closer to the Alliance pitch). When the horn sounded it seemed like a lot of the Forsaken didn't really know what to make of it, and/or they wanted more time with their loved ones like Parqual and the Felstones. This could explain a lot as to why some of the Forsaken could seem like they were trying to move to the Alliance side of the field where they were really just confused and unprepared for a sudden ending to the Gathering.

[Harper]

ITT : Sylvanas fans are going to defend the murder of civilians in the name of bitch-queen

She's morally gray.

[Steampunkette]

"After the fact" implies that she had considerable time to cogitate and reflect - this is something she says directly after sending out her Dark Rangers but before she takes the field to personally slay Calia Menethil. So no, in this case I would say she says this in the proverbial heat of the moment, and isn't covering much of anything.



Sylvanas was actively looking for signs of betrayal - it's the psychological version of the phenomenon of pareidolia, she's seeing a pattern (of defection or betrayal) where one may not even exist before anything can even be confirmed. As for Elsie being killed first, I think this was likely because she was easily identifiable - she was the de facto head of the Desolate Council and the most visible target in terms of the Dark Rangers' presumed kill-list. No idea if Sylvanas specifically singled her out as we aren't privy to her actually issuing the command to kill the Council members to the Dark Rangers, but even if she didn't it's not a leap to assume they would start at the top of the list and work their way systematically down. I imagine the Gathering was more or less a chaotic knot of people milling about before all hell broke loose - some Forsaken and Humans closer to Galen's Fall, and others closer to the Alliance Keep, with a kind of festival air to the proceedings. In my mind's eye I would place Elsie and Calia at more or less the center of the goings-on - as Elsie had no one to really see at the Gathering (with her husband in life newly deceased) I would think she was probably just milling about, observing and taking note, generally delighting at how well things were going considering. So some on the Desolate Council were likely closer to Galen's Fall than she was, and some were further (and closer to the Alliance pitch). When the horn sounded it seemed like a lot of the Forsaken didn't really know what to make of it, and/or they wanted more time with their loved ones like Parqual and the Felstones. This could explain a lot as to why some of the Forsaken could seem like they were trying to move to the Alliance side of the field where they were really just confused and unprepared for a sudden ending to the Gathering.

I didn't try to imply that there is significant time to cogitate or reflect. Though you have clearly inferred it. Only that she has already committed the act when she realizes the truth of the matter.

So in my mental timeline it goes:
1 Sylvanas blows the horn to see if people are loyal
2 Sylvanas learns of Calia and gets upset
3 Sylvanas thinks that Anduin is behind it
4 Sylvanas orders the Dark Rangers to go kill all the Forsaken on the field
5 The Dark Rangers depart and engage
6 Sylvanas realizes that it wasn't Anduin's idea (evaporated in the time it took to give an order and have the Dark Rangers leave)
7 Nathanos questions Sylvanas and she responds with the coldness to hide her emotions
8 Sylvanas goes after Calia


I also disagree with the idea that Sylvanas would give the Dark Rangers a list. Or that they would specifically Target whoever is at the top of a list and then work their way down in rank. It makes more sense if the Dark Rangers each attacked whichever Target was closest. Anduin after all mentions their uncanny accuracy, so it's not as if they have to be super duper careful in picking their targets to avoid hitting humans.

[Deleted]

Calia was the reason she killed everyone. Because everyone on that field may have been tempted to defect under Calia Menethil.

I'm not sure if you're dedicated to misunderstanding me, here, but I think I've made my points very clearly and I don't see how we could be miscommunicating at this point.

You're taking my posts and dissecting them to pull out one statement and pretend that it has nothing to do with all of the other statements in my arguments. I am not a book or a sound bite. Cherry picking doesn't work on a person who is currently talking to you.

If I come of this way I am sorry. English is not my native tongue.
And I dont think we completely dissagree. I do agree that Calia was the trigger, but my point was simply that Sylvanas even killing those Forsaken who showed their loyalty is a sign that Sylvanas is, like Anduin said, lost.
To me it seems she cannot understand the difference between the forsaken and her, not comprehend that not all Forsaken necessarily think exactly like her, and that the thought of the notion that bonds with humans is possible sickens her and "threatens" her because she, herself, is not capable of doing that.

I hope this comment makes more sense. I am sorry if I came of as trying to misunderstand on purpose.

[Steampunkette]

If I come of this way I am sorry. English is not my native tongue.
And I dont think we completely dissagree. I do agree that Calia was the trigger, but my point was simply that Sylvanas even killing those Forsaken who showed their loyalty is a sign that Sylvanas is, like Anduin said, lost.
To me it seems she cannot understand the difference between the forsaken and her, not comprehend that not all Forsaken necessarily think exactly like her, and that the thought of the notion that bonds with humans is possible sickens her and "threatens" her because she, herself, is not capable of doing that.

I hope this comment makes more sense. I am sorry if I came of as trying to misunderstand on purpose.

That's okay I understand now.

Sylvanas loves her sisters. It's the reason she didn't kill them at the end of the comic that she, Alleria, and Vereesa starred in. She is capable of caring and is heartbroken that her sisters do not love her enough to reach across the divide and embrace her. That is not the difference between her and the Forsaken.

The thing is even The Forsaken who ran back to the wall may not have been showing loyalty. They might have just been scared of dying. Sylvanas knows this and isn't scared of them telling people about how they were loved, or love others. She's scared that they may have returned out of fear rather than loyalty. If they still held hope of defection or betraying her then they were a risk to her and she couldn't allow that risk.

[Sills]

...Sylvanas killed all but the ones who returned early (with hearts considered hardened against the living) because she felt she couldn't trust them - in her view if she allowed the fear (or the hope) to fester, it would only breed further weakness and division in the Forsaken people...

This echoes my own understanding of the events that played out. We have no way of knowing who among the Desolate Council would have turned traitor and who would have stayed loyal. We only saw the intentions of a couple of them. This did not matter one iota to Sylvanas and she killed them all except for the handful who were spurned by their loved ones and returned to Thoradin's Wall early. They, Sylvanas claimed, are now "truly Desolate...". It's about making sure that the Forsaken believes what she believes: the living do not care for them. If anything, the living resent and despise them and their existence.

Allowing loyal Desolate Council members to return to the Undercity who had seen differently was a threat to what Sylvanas believed to be true and what she wanted the Forsaken to believe to be true. Whether they were loyal to the Horde was irrelevant to her. Whether or not they were traitors to the Horde, they were traitors to Sylvanas' ideals the moment they met with the living and had a positive interaction with them. At least this is what I took away from these events.

[Aucald]

I didn't try to imply that there is significant time to cogitate or reflect. Though you have clearly inferred it. Only that she has already committed the act when she realizes the truth of the matter.

So in my mental timeline it goes:
1 Sylvanas blows the horn to see if people are loyal
2 Sylvanas learns of Calia and gets upset
3 Sylvanas thinks that Anduin is behind it
4 Sylvanas orders the Dark Rangers to go kill all the Forsaken on the field
5 The Dark Rangers depart and engage
6 Sylvanas realizes that it wasn't Anduin's idea (evaporated in the time it took to give an order and have the Dark Rangers leave)
7 Nathanos questions Sylvanas and she responds with the coldness to hide her emotions
8 Sylvanas goes after Calia


I also disagree with the idea that Sylvanas would give the Dark Rangers a list. Or that they would specifically Target whoever is at the top of a list and then work their way down in rank. It makes more sense if the Dark Rangers each attacked whichever Target was closest. Anduin after all mentions their uncanny accuracy, so it's not as if they have to be super duper careful in picking their targets to avoid hitting humans.

That's a plausible construction of events.

I don't think Sylvanas gave the Dark Rangers a list, either; but they're well trained and probably intuited the substance of her desires without having to be told directly. They were aware the genesis of the consternation started with Elsie and the revealed Calia, but their command was specifically to target only Forsaken and not kill any Humans (thus keeping with the agreement struck between Anduin and Sylvanas in their accord leading up to the Gathering). Assuming all the Dark Rangers were parked on or near Thoradin's Wall, held in reserve should they be needed, then it is equally likely they all took the field at roughly the same time - making Elsie's death seem like a very pointed statement on Sylvanas' or the Dark Rangers' part. She wouldn't be the closest target (assuming the field was more or less people milling about chaotically), but she would still be the target most familiar to the Dark Rangers.

Actually, thinking further on it, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that Nathanos gave the Dark Rangers instruction on exactly what to do if they were called to do their duty, after all; he would've wanted them prepared for the eventuality and likely would've supplied them with intelligence on every Council member. Not to mention that Elsie was already under suspicion before the Gathering itself even began, as Anduin had wrote her personally to inform her of Wyll Benton's death and giving her his direct condolences (which is why they acknowledge one-another later on at the Gathering). Elsie would definitely be the most visible target, figuratively and literally.

[Steampunkette]

That's a plausible construction of events.

I don't think Sylvanas gave the Dark Rangers a list, either; but they're well trained and probably intuited the substance of her desires without having to be told directly. They were aware the genesis of the consternation started with Elsie and the revealed Calia, but their command was specifically to target only Forsaken and not kill any Humans (thus keeping with the agreement struck between Anduin and Sylvanas in their accord leading up to the Gathering). Assuming all the Dark Rangers were parked on or near Thoradin's Wall, held in reserve should they be needed, then it is equally likely they all took the field at roughly the same time - making Elsie's death seem like a very pointed statement on Sylvanas' or the Dark Rangers' part. She wouldn't be the closest target (assuming the field was more or less people milling about chaotically), but she would still be the target most familiar to the Dark Rangers.

Actually, thinking further on it, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that Nathanos gave the Dark Rangers instruction on exactly what to do if they were called to do their duty, after all; he would've wanted them prepared for the eventuality and likely would've supplied them with intelligence on every Council member. Not to mention that Elsie was already under suspicion before the Gathering itself even began, as Anduin had wrote her personally to inform her of Wyll Benton's death and giving her his direct condolences (which is why they acknowledge one-another later on at the Gathering). Elsie would definitely be the most visible target, figuratively and literally.

I don't disagree that she would be the most visible target both figuratively and literally. But is it again plausible that she was just the closest? Maybe it was just pareidolia paranoia that led Sylvanas to think they were defecting, but what if it wasn't?

What if most of the Desolate Council was on the other side of Elsie Benton from Sylvanas's perspective and she intuited that they were defecting en masse, and was correct in her guess based on the admittedly loose evidence provided?

If Elsie Benton was the only innocent person on the field, the only one who wasn't defecting, so caught up in talking to Calia that she didn't notice people moving around her, and Sylvanas recognized the truth that they were actually defecting but assumed the wrong motivation on the part of the Desolate Council, with all of that in mind:

Does it change the morality of her actions?