Dragonmaw Orc and Wildhammer Dwarf allied race concept

[Ielenia]

except it will change, there wil be some manari who 1)din't join 2) left 3) become good, in every way is retarded

Just like there's some undead who, in your own words "2) left 3) become good". By calling it "retarded", by the way, it shows you have a real problem in accepting other people's ideas that don't align with your own.

And so i repeat: the original lore will be changed of a faction of man'ai who broke , when previous lore said that all of then were legion, and they broke or not, they will still be evil beings

The original lore won't be changed.

because all the reasons i said before, that you keep ignoring

Your "reasons" amount to "they're evil." Which is a meaningless argument to make since, prior to vanilla WoW (and the announcement of the Forsaken as a playable faction), you could make the exact same argument for the undead as a playable race.

where is context of demons joining the factions afer they almost destoy the world? there is no ontext, you re tryin to manipulate things to fit, the context and situations are different

Once again, you have a problem of context. You keep wrongly insisting that I'm comparing the undead and the demons as perfect 1:1 mirrors of each other in every single aspect, when I'm not. Context, man. Context. The man'ari could easily have a small faction of them that splintered off, either before, or after Sargeras' fall. And you ask "why should the Horde/Alliance trust those demons"? Well, again, that exact same question could be asked before the Forsaken were announced as a playable race back when vanilla WoW was announced: "why should the Horde/Alliance trust those undead?"

i dunno maybe he face that the demons enslave the ocs and destroy their world? maybe this? ummm

Actually, who destroyed Draenor weren't the demons, but the orcs themselves. When the Alliance went to Draenor to end the orcish Horde, Ner'zhul tried to evacuate the orcs by opening portals to other planets. But he opened way too many, and the energies of those portals tore Draenor apart and sent its remains to the Twisting Nether, which became what we know as Outland.

it say all, the eredar split in 3 groups, the ones who flee, the ones who become demons and the one who become broken in argus, thats the lore, thats all until they say otherwise

I re-read your link, and I noticed you wrote this:

by now, all mana'ri are members of the burning Legion, corrupted, twisted evil with hunger of power

Which is another thing you made up. We don't know if all man'ari are members of the Burning Legion. And regardless, with the Legion now over, who can say that a faction of the man'ari can't splinter off now?

it will be a retcon, thats my point, you re the one toying with words

That's not your point. You say that old lore will have to be changed:

they will need to not just create new lore but retcon old lore

Which I've explained a dozen times it's not necessary.

[Directionalk9]

no, at least not that we know

but like i said, its not retcon or changing lore, is actively creating new, with the already established lore

it would seem the Dragonmaw of TH probably don’t want to dabble with the Drakonid stuff, their more traditionalist and didn’t like when Mor’ghor tried to change the Dragonmaw prior to, the events of Cataclysm.

[Syegfryed]

Just like there's some undead who, in your own words "2) left 3) become good"

you again, taking something else trying to prove point, when the undeads and demons are the same thing

By calling it "retarded", by the way, it shows you have a real problem in accepting other people's ideas that don't align with your own.

its show that i see retarded ideas as retarded ideas, like putting demon goats in the horde

The original lore won't be changed.

it will

Your "reasons" amount to "they're evil."

this show exactly what im saying, you are ignoring everything and babbling about other shit

prior to vanilla WoW (and the announcement of the Forsaken as a playable faction), you could make the exact same argument for the undead as a playable race.

except you can't, because 1) you r again, ignoring other variables, and 2) before vanilla there are already "good forsaken in war3 campaign

Once again, you have a problem of context. You keep wrongly insisting that I'm comparing the undead and the demons as perfect 1:1 mirrors of each other in every single aspect, when I'm not

no, i said you are just taking ONE variable, as ignoring everything else

"undeads were evil they change now they joined this can be done with demons easy herp derp" like this is everything that matter

Actually, who destroyed Draenor weren't the demons, but the orcs themselves.

nice, the nitpicking again, jesus man, obviously when i aid about theyd estroying their world was because o their inluence, their manipulation and by their fel magic

When the Alliance went to Draenor to end the orcish Horde, Ner'zhul tried to evacuate the orcs by opening portals to other planets. But he opened way too many, and the energies of those portals tore Draenor apart and sent its remains to the Twisting Nether, which became what we know as Outland.

you are are trying too "win" aren't you? i secure you i know orc lore pretty well, you don't need try to showing off

do you remember with what ner'zhul opened the gates? and who created the LK the one who create the undead? yeah kil'jaden, demon so any thing the undeads did we should not blame then by the Manari!11! /s

Which is another thing you made up. We don't know if all man'ari are members of the Burning Legion.

we exactly now that, until blizzard say otherwise

And regardless, with the Legion now over, who can say that a faction of the man'ari can't splinter off now?

i rly don't care, cause this is not my point, this is something who will be told in a future, not now, who are the point, regardless this don't mean they will be good, or want join the faction, or mean the faction will accept then

Which I've explained a dozen times it's not necessary.

and i explained a dozen of times it is necessary

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it would seem the Dragonmaw of TH probably don’t want to dabble with the Drakonid stuff, their more traditionalist and didn’t like when Mor’ghor tried to change the Dragonmaw prior to, the events of Cataclysm.

he tried to change then into fel horde-like, there is nothing about then not wanting turno in drakonid, or something related.

And if the speculation were true, and their skin and eye are a thing from dragon magic, it would be natural to happen

[Hyde]

Wow! I guess Dragonmaw are the new High Elves...

In what way though?

[Ielenia]

you again, taking something else trying to prove point, when the undeads and demons are the same thing

It's not my fault you don't think your arguments through and they can easily be used against you.

except you can't, because 1) you r again, ignoring other variables,

You don't take into consideration the color of a car when you're trying to determine which one is the fastest. In other words, some variables are meaningless and add nothing to the comparison at hand.

and 2) before vanilla there are already "good forsaken in war3 campaign

Um... no, they weren't.

no, i said you are just taking ONE variable, as ignoring everything else

"undeads were evil they change now they joined this can be done with demons easy herp derp" like this is everything that matter

And those parallels are what matter for the issue at hand. Scale of destruction is rather meaningless considering both sides did a lot of damage. The undead were initially a 100% evil "race", but later a group splintered off to become a "good" faction. The parallel works for the man'ari as they are currently an evil race, but can have a small faction of them splinter off, either before or after Sargeras' downfall.

do you remember with what ner'zhul opened the gates? and who created the LK the one who create the undead? yeah kil'jaden, demon

Except Kil'Jaeden didn't command Ner'zhul to open all those portals. He did it by his own will to save the orcs. Also, I urge you to rethink this argument of yours, because you're saying that Ner'zhul did what he did because he was corrupted by demons, then the man'ari are just fine to join the playable factions since they were corrupted by Sargeras. Remember: the man'ari are not an originally evil race.

we exactly now that, until blizzard say otherwise

Source, please? Or, in your own words:

[Citation needed]

and i explained a dozen of times it is necessary

Actually... you haven't. All you said so far was "the old lore has to be retcon'ed", yet you never explained why, especially since I gave examples why the old lore doesn't have to be changed.

[The Anax]

In what way though?

In the way that grown humans will spend hours of their lives generating posts and arguing over a make-believe, pretend subject- and a non playable race that is not selectable in the game. A subject that is literally cosmetic only.

[Directionalk9]

he tried to change then into fel horde-like, there is nothing about then not wanting turno in drakonid, or something related.

And if the speculation were true, and their skin and eye are a thing from dragon magic, it would be natural to happen

As traditionalist they probably won’t want the drakonid stuff, as traditionalist They’d want to get back to their roots like they were on Dreanor, training thier mounts and having that bond, taming the beasts.

I can’t say that’s for sure the future of the clan, no more than you can say they want to be Drakonids, at the end of they day it’s our personal preferences.

As for thier darker skin tones it’s likely it’s from them spending years living in Grim Batol, that why the Blackrocks in Blackrock mountain have it and why the Blackrocks we see in Dreanor have darker skin. Underground living changes them, pretty rapidly it would seem, however orc skins seems pretty malleable depending on what around them.

[Syegfryed]

It's not my fault you don't think your arguments through and they can easily be used against you.

yeah except nitpicking is not a counter argument, you, exactly, refute none of my points, and spend the entire thread trying to derail the thrad with meaningless bullshit like clan size and good demons

You don't take into consideration the color of a car when you're trying to determine which one is the fastest. In other words, some variables are meaningless and add nothing to the comparison at hand.

bu you also take into consideration their motor to see witch one is the fastes the type of gasoline they use, the aerodinamic and a lot of other variables

you are trying to determinate that both cars have the same speed because they have the same wheels, stop you are not going anywhere

Um... no, they weren't.

yeah thy free themselves from the evil scourge and act independent, thaats why i said "good"

And those parallels are what matter for the issue at hand. Scale of destruction is rather meaningless considering both sides did a lot of damage.

why is meaningless? again, why? becuse you don't thin it matters? ROFL they mean a lot, again,you don't just forgive some bread
thief and a rapist murderer just because both commit crimes, scale of damage is what make something acceptble or not for the races

The same way put demons in the same unacceptable thing to put humans, they both are sworn enemies trough the years with all the things they done, stop ignoring this oversimplifying the situation, escalation does amtter

the only variable "they were evi lfaction they can be good becaue others did" is USELESS when there are others who act directly against then, so is a meaningless and irrelevant argument

Except Kil'Jaeden didn't command Ner'zhul to open all those portals. He did it by his own will to save the orcs.

and i didn't said that, nice, you are even refuting arguments that i never made, i merely comment how ner'zhul use the Scepter of sargeras to do that


and? they chose go the the legion, they are the worst kind, the ones who don't, flee, died or become broken

Source, please? Or, in your own words:

i already give you that, you prob ignore lost, your problem, go back and find yourself now

Actually... you haven't

i did, create good demons is necessary retcon lore

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As traditionalist they probably won’t want the drakonid stuff, as traditionalist They’d want to get back to their roots like they were on Dreanor, training thier mounts and having that bond, taming the beasts.

you canno't rly said that, their are orcs after all, they would not care,go back tot heir roots is a bit impossible since there is no rylaks and pro most of then are born here

I can’t say that’s for sure the future of the clan, no more than you can say they want to be Drakonids, at the end of they day it’s our personal preferences.

i mean like i said, they are orcs, seeking power is not absurd, i can totally see they wanting to become stronger becoming dragon-like creatures to show their "ultimate power", living with dragons and dabbling with their powers and soon orcs who can be dragons born

And its just one of the options i think it could e viable, they could just create some draconic features like the zandalari with dino features

As for thier darker skin tones it’s likely it’s from them spending years living in Grim Batol, that why the Blackrocks in Blackrock mountain have it and why the Blackrocks we see in Dreanor have darker skin. Underground living changes them, pretty rapidly it would seem, however orc skins seems pretty malleable depending on what around them.

yes, the problem is, the color is different, if it was true they would have the same skin color that Blackrock, and there is the glowing yellow eye, something who don't happen with other underground clans, the bet explanation is dragon magic

[Directionalk9]

I’m more or less moving on from this back and forth, it’s just our personal preference for the clan coming to a head.

[Ielenia]

why is meaningless? again, why? becuse you don't thin it matters? ROFL they mean a lot, again,you don't just forgive some bread
thief and a rapist murderer just because both commit crimes, scale of damage is what make something acceptble or not for the races

It's meaningless because I'm not judging which group did more damage or which group has the highest body count. What I'm doing is tracing a parallel between the Forsaken and a possible man'ari faction. Both come from groups originally perceived as 100% evil, but then broke off from their respective 'main groups' to be 'independent', splintering off from them.

i already give you that, you prob ignore lost, your problem, go back and find yourself now

Actually, you did not. None of what you linked so far says that all man'ari are evil.

i did, create good demons is necessary retcon lore

Old lore would not have to be changed, like I explained and gave examples several times already.

[Syegfryed]

It's meaningless because I'm not judging which group did more damage or which group has the highest body count. What I'm doing is tracing a parallel between the Forsaken and a possible man'ari faction. Both come from groups originally perceived as 100% evil, but then broke off from their respective 'main groups' to be 'independent', splintering off from them.

and i say again: you parallel is meaningless because clash directly with a dozen of other variables to make this impossible or like i said very unlikely

if they didn't exist, sure, you could have a point, ignoring then will not magically make one

Actually, you did not. None of what you linked so far says that all man'ari are evil.

if all of then joined the Legion what you expect they to be? do the math

Old lore would not have to be changed, like I explained and gave examples several times already.

and i explained several times it will

old lore = Mana'ri evil -> retcon -> not of all of then = new lore
old lore = all of then in the Legion -> retcon -> not all of then, some left or rebel before or after Sargeras falls = new lore

[Thimagryn]

Have the Dragonmaw of Twilight Highlands been able to? Those are the ones we’re talking about.

Are they really the ones we are talking about? Dragonmaw clan can cone from any source, be it outland, twilight highlands or alternate draenor. In the end its just a.clan like Blackrock or Warsong.

[Hyde]

In the way that grown humans will spend hours of their lives generating posts and arguing over a make-believe, pretend subject- and a non playable race that is not selectable in the game. A subject that is literally cosmetic only.

So what's wrong with that? Are you that too worried about when people have fun speculating in a game they enjoy playing over the aesthetic they love that doesn't concern you? Seems like you want to be edgy over things that don't concern or effect you in any way.

[Directionalk9]

Are they really the ones we are talking about? Dragonmaw clan can cone from any source, be it outland, twilight highlands or alternate draenor. In the end its just a.clan like Blackrock or Warsong.

In the grand scheme of things does it matter? Nah man its a video game. But there are only two distinct Dragonmaw Clans in game, ones from Azeroth and ones from Outland. Horde's introduction into Twilight Highlands show that the splinter between the clans forced them both down different paths, paths that the other doesn't care for.

Like I said, it's just personal preference at this rate. I prefer Dragonmaw be added to the game with just more option of what we've seen already, others want them to be something more, something else that's also fine.

To me this is no different than that High Elf thread from a month or so ago, adding significant changes to the race to make them stand out more. Or when people bring up Furblogs and Hozen, but concede that the model isn't that great for a playable race, so they ling to images of fantasy races that are look more player race friendly. At a certain point you're offering something different with the only the namesake in place (Dragonmaw haven't gone that far, but for me, it's close.)

I think the root of debate/conversations like these is that Allied Races are more or less, so far, sub-races, but they aren't being implemented in a way most players thought, they just "new" races. Now anything like Wildhammer are just going to be viewed as "another dwarf" which is too bad. Blizzard and some part of the community see a distinction between the clans, now one is just out there, weirdly not playable when they were the first dwarves we actually got to know, and their leader is currently 1/3 or the Dwarven leadership.

But who cares, I'm just a picky stickler for shit like this.

[Ielenia]

and i say again: you parallel is meaningless because clash directly with a dozen of other variables to make this impossible or like i said very unlikely

It doesn't "clash" with any other variable. Scale of destruction is meaningless, as I explained.

if all of then joined the Legion what you expect they to be? do the math

Again, where's the source that say that all man'ari are evil? Or even that all of them joined the Legion willingly? (hint: they haven't) Also, there's nothing that says no man'ari have left the Legion after joining.

and i explained several times it will

old lore = Mana'ri evil -> retcon -> not of all of then = new lore
old lore = all of then in the Legion -> retcon -> not all of then, some left or rebel before or after Sargeras falls = new lore

There is no lore that says all man'ari are evil. At best, you'll find a broad generalization that they are evil. The original lore would not be changed, at all, even if Blizzard adds a small faction of man'ari that splintered off from the Legion before the fall of Sargeras.

[Syegfryed]

It doesn't "clash" with any other variable. Scale of destruction is meaningless, as I explained.

of course it clash, one argument alone is meaningless when there are Other variables who completely make then meaningless to the point, scale of destruction means everything when it come to the point of allied races, joining factions and forgivenessand etc

There is no lore that says all man'ari are evil. At best, you'll find a broad generalization that they are evil. The original lore would not be changed, at all, even if Blizzard adds a small faction of man'ari that splintered off from the Legion before the fall of Sargeras.

There is lore saying all of then are Legion, thus all of they are evil, now its up to you to find if there is lore saying there are good manari and manari who don't are legion: spoilers you will not find

where's the source that say that all man'ari are evil? Or even that all of them joined the Legion willingly?(hint: they haven't) Also, there's nothing that says no man'ari have left the Legion after joining.

their wiki? something i already link? yes they do joined willingly the ones who don't are the broken and the draenei

And there is nothing to say manari left the Legion, this it didn't happen, the lore is: mana'ri are Legion, end.Creating theories don't make it true

[Directionalk9]

How would a splinter group of Man'ari that splintered post-Legion's defeat be a retcon? That's called story-telling.

[Syegfryed]

How would a splinter group of Man'ari that splintered post-Legion's defeat be a retcon? That's called story-telling.

splitting after Legion no, before yes, the retcon is they being good guys wishful to join the horde, and more retarded the Horde accepting then

After sargeras fall the demons would entire in war to see who will be the boss now, but Demons running away from the conflict, especially the mana'ri, because now they are good, and pledge themselves to a faction? thats totally bullshit, its not like sargeras is mind controlling then Like the LK

by all those reasons i say: its very unlikely, hard and not lore friendly do that, when they can do other things and don't fuck up the game even more

[Directionalk9]

Sure it's unlikely, but there are more than enough stories to be told to make it possible.

[The Anax]

Seems like you want to be edgy over things that don't concern or effect you in any way.

I'll tell you what it seems like, it seems like Dragonmaw are the new High Elves lol