Kinda fed up with the horde being lead by Villains.

[Trassk]

Lets face is, getting past all the shallow fanboys and girls unable to accept the hordes currently leadership is that of a villain with saturday morning cartoon villain ethics, one thats obviously being set up to fall, as it stands, I'm just so bored of this repeated plot dynamic.

The horde as a group are not villains, they consist of a mixture of different races just trying to survive, and so often that leads to them working alongside alliance races to ensure their survival when a major threat looms over them.

We just went though defeating the legion, from the start the petty rivalry between factions lead to nothing when we were defeated at the broken shore, and only when our characters acted on their own agency to lead their own group into battle did we defeat the legion, thats how blizzard wrote it, thats what happned.

So why after that, do we suddenly just fold back into the same crap of 'follow your faction leader you have no choice'? It makes our characters appear to have no agency or freedom to choose, despite showing how shallow the faction war is. Hell in the questline with teldrassil, we see how it effects Saurfang finally questioning his place in the current horde.

Sylvanas is following the exact same methods that Garrosh did, maybe with more success, but that just makes her into a successful bad guy all the more, and its so obvious she's being set up for a fall. The reason for that is just in the story alone, when you have someone like Saurfang just giving up and letting the alliance capture him, its obvious he sees nothing of honor and value in the horde. And he wouldn't be the only one thinking this.

When Sylvanas does some bad shit, we're forced to go along with it because the writers can't make a game with some agency in our choices, but in the end, we know the horde isn't going to be defeated for this, because that would be game breaking. Instead it will be the lore characters who are defeated while the faction survives, just like it happened with Garrosh.

This is why this repeated bs of having the warchief turn out to be a villain just pisses me off, because it just leads to the same conclusion, horde follows them because they have no choice because the plot demands it, plot goes the horde will survive but only when said warchief goes to far off the rails and they need to be taken out, rivalry continues between factions, rinse and repeat.

I just hope this is the last time in warchiefs story they do this, when syvlanas is dead or removed, whoever takes over just remains so, maybe have the alliance taken over by the villain for once and see how they turns out, or just end the faction bs, because it will never go anywhere outside of how it ended at the end of mists of pandaria.

[EbaumsTipster]

If you're getting mad that a villain/antagonist doesn't face consequences in a single patch of a two-three year expansion, it's time to play another game.

They said Garrosh was the endboss at Mists launch: you couldn't do shit about it until the final raid.

EDIT: And that's implying Sylvanas doesn't face consequences, when Baine and Saurfang are fed up with her to the point where one of them leaves the Horde as obvious set up for future plot developments.

[Trassk]

If you're getting mad that a villain/antagonist doesn't face consequences in a single patch of a two-three year expansion, it's time to play another game.

They said Garrosh was the endboss at Mists launch: you couldn't do shit about it until the final raid.

EDIT: And that's implying Sylvanas doesn't face consequences, when Baine and Saurfang are fed up with her to the point where one of them leaves the Horde as obvious set up for future plot developments.

yeah, its obvious thats how the setup is going. i'm talking about blizzard repeating this same trope again and again, when we already know how it will go down.

[Thage]

yeah, its obvious thats how the setup is going. i'm talking about blizzard repeating this same trope again and again, when we already know how it will go down.

To be fair, the company's had like four plot lines recycled through the entirety of their IPs from day 1. Also, careful with this thread, the Sylvanas Bootlicker Brigade won't tolerate any mean things being said about Glorious Leader!

[Verdugo]

we get a leader who actually embodies what the Horde is - Baine would be a good choice

Of course, a character that cuts off his third horn and sends it to his beloved king is a character that embodies the Horde.

[J012D4N]

So why after that, do we suddenly just fold back into the same crap of 'follow your faction leader you have no choice'? It makes our characters appear to have no agency or freedom to choose, despite showing how shallow the faction war is. Hell in the questline with teldrassil, we see how it effects Saurfang finally questioning his place in the current horde.

Poor writing for sure ..... They could have had something extra/more to "legitimize" the action for the horde to burn/sack Teldrassil. The whole Azerite deal doesn't really invoke any kind of Horde "unity". On Saurfang, honestly don't like that he's depicted as "sympathetic" or "conflicted". Makes him look weak, and certainly a shell of his former self ...

[judgementofantonidas]

It is simple. The horde is lead by villains because they are populated by villainous races only thinly veiled by Blizzard rewriting them as "misunderstood".

[Sangris]

Baine would be a horrible choice, it's not surprising the people that want him as Warchief are mostly Alliance. The person I would love to see as Warchief is Rexxar. He is no warmonger, but he would not sit idle and take action if the Horde was threatened. Plus they seem to set him up for more stuff in BfA. Only problem with Rexxar is he prefers solitude in the wilds.

[Aucald]

Thus far the Horde has been led by 4 individuals, only one of which was a confirmed and eventually executed villain (i.e. Garrosh). Thrall and Vol'jin were more or less heroic, and Sylvanas *may* be a villain or may be an anti-hero depending on how things go.

[Aeula]

Better a villain than a spineless coward such as Baine and Saurfang.

[Kyphael]

Baine would be a horrible choice, it's not surprising the people that want him as Warchief are mostly Alliance. The person I would love to see as Warchief is Rexxar. He is no warmonger, but he would not sit idle and take action if the Horde was threatened. Plus they seem to set him up for more stuff in BfA. Only problem with Rexxar is he prefers solitude in the wilds.

That and he's hardly been developed at all, he's had very tiny roles ever, the casual fans wouldn't even know him if not for Hearthstone, hell, I might not know him if not for Hearthstone, his presence has been that minimal since what, BC. And he only now, after 14 years just now got his own unique model. The problem with the Horde is, if Sylvanas gets the axe, there is literally no good Warchief to replace her.

They fucked Thrall up.
Lor'themar is like a blood elf Baine.
Everybody hates Gallywix and he's treated as comic relief.
Baine is like a Tauren Anduin (see the cycle of bad/bland characterization here?)
Saurfang is getting so damn old and redundant, even hardcore Horde players are fed up with his bullshit.

At this point the only thing to do is bring back somebody very cool from the dead to lead the Horde (not Vol'jin, he was like a troll version of Thrall if Thrall had no presence. I vote Cairne!

[Florena]

Lets face is, getting past all the shallow fanboys and girls unable to accept the hordes currently leadership is that of a villain with saturday morning cartoon villain ethics, one thats obviously being set up to fall, as it stands, I'm just so bored of this repeated plot dynamic.

The horde as a group are not villains, they consist of a mixture of different races just trying to survive, and so often that leads to them working alongside alliance races to ensure their survival when a major threat looms over them.

We just went though defeating the legion, from the start the petty rivalry between factions lead to nothing when we were defeated at the broken shore, and only when our characters acted on their own agency to lead their own group into battle did we defeat the legion, thats how blizzard wrote it, thats what happned.

So why after that, do we suddenly just fold back into the same crap of 'follow your faction leader you have no choice'? It makes our characters appear to have no agency or freedom to choose, despite showing how shallow the faction war is. Hell in the questline with teldrassil, we see how it effects Saurfang finally questioning his place in the current horde.

Sylvanas is following the exact same methods that Garrosh did, maybe with more success, but that just makes her into a successful bad guy all the more, and its so obvious she's being set up for a fall. The reason for that is just in the story alone, when you have someone like Saurfang just giving up and letting the alliance capture him, its obvious he sees nothing of honor and value in the horde. And he wouldn't be the only one thinking this.

When Sylvanas does some bad shit, we're forced to go along with it because the writers can't make a game with some agency in our choices, but in the end, we know the horde isn't going to be defeated for this, because that would be game breaking. Instead it will be the lore characters who are defeated while the faction survives, just like it happened with Garrosh.

This is why this repeated bs of having the warchief turn out to be a villain just pisses me off, because it just leads to the same conclusion, horde follows them because they have no choice because the plot demands it, plot goes the horde will survive but only when said warchief goes to far off the rails and they need to be taken out, rivalry continues between factions, rinse and repeat.

I just hope this is the last time in warchiefs story they do this, when syvlanas is dead or removed, whoever takes over just remains so, maybe have the alliance taken over by the villain for once and see how they turns out, or just end the faction bs, because it will never go anywhere outside of how it ended at the end of mists of pandaria.

We had no agency in Legion. Instead of following a faction for most of it, we followed Khadgar and took quests from order hall npcs. But we had no more agency in Legion than we did in any other expansion. It just so happened that our masters at the time happened to mostly not be alliance or horde members. We have always been slaves to the giant glowing exclamation marks and always will be. The player character will never have any meaningful agency in this game.

We didn't form the order halls. Other npcs invited us to them. We may have been 'leaders' but we were really still taking orders from quest givers for anything that mattered, while our actual agency was relegated to the mission board entirely.

That said, I understand not wanting to be lead by villains, and if they wanted things to be morally gray they mucked it up with Sylvanas.

[Super Dickmann]

The Horde has been lead by villains much longer than it's been lead by pussies, which is its sole other state. Get used to it.

[Hubbl3]

I agree, I'm very much hoping after Sylvanas we get a leader who actually embodies what the Horde is - Baine would be a good choice, or Thrall again - another idea could be Talanji, I know she's a new character but playing on the beta I think she is very much an awesome character and I would be more than happy with her as Warchief

Why you hate Baine? It's pretty obvious that Horde Warchiefs are going to die no matter what. If Baine becomes Warchief he will be a Vessel of the Void in 3 Expansions and bring the End Times of WoW. It's pretty clear at this point.

[Deleted]

Part of the crew, part of the ship buddy

[Vakna]

I'm still holding out on the hope that some outside force like N'zoth is affecting Sylvies actions. I refuse to believe that a former Ranger General would think "start a war to prevent a war" is a valid and good tactic. She's done nothing but put her people in more danger than they were before since she took the mantle of warchief, she's an embarrassment to the Horde.

[Trassk]

Thus far the Horde has been led by 4 individuals, only one of which was a confirmed and eventually executed villain (i.e. Garrosh). Thrall and Vol'jin were more or less heroic, and Sylvanas *may* be a villain or may be an anti-hero depending on how things go.

She killed her own people who just wanted to be with their families again, not even garrosh of that much a monster

[Super Dickmann]

She killed her own people who just wanted to be with their families again, not even garrosh of that much a monster

Her heinous act of killing twelve people, of which four to eleven were genuine defecting high officials is irredeemable. Who else could have committed such foul deeds?

[Kralljin]

Her heinous act of killing twelve people, of which four to eleven were genuine defecting high officials is irredeemable. Who else could have committed such foul deeds?

Well, killing 8 people because 4 people did something wrong is kinda a bad ratio.

[Aucald]

She killed her own people who just wanted to be with their families again, not even garrosh of that much a monster

Who may have been defected to the current enemy of the Horde with any number of state secrets (given that they were acting as the interim government of the Forsaken with Sylvanas serving in Orgrimmar as Warchief). While I don't agree with her actions at the Gathering at all, her actions are not nearly as transparently villainous as Garrosh's were.