Elegy and A Good War Fully Released

[Qualia]

If countries dropped out and rejoined NATO it would still be nato. Even if all the leaders changed.

Blizzard has stated time and again that the Alliance that is around now is the same organization that was formed in response to the horde invasion on Azeroth.

The organization would be the same, but its nature or behaviors would change. We don't say that Imperial Japan is the same as current Japan, or America under Lincoln is the same as America under Trump - they are the same countries, but their natures are different. Similarly, no one would claim that Sylvanas' Horde act the same as Thrall's (Saurfang clearly don't), or pre-Cata Genn is the same as pre-BtS Genn, which isn't the same as current Genn either. Genn has changed greatly since the time of the Alliance of Lordaeron, Velen isn't Daelin and Tyrande / Malfurion have completely different personalities from Terenas; There isn't any Onyxia sabotaging the unity from inside - let me ask you again: why would the Alliance, with its leaders having different personalities, behave the same as the Alliance of Lordaeron? Surely you don't think that Blizzard meant the two Alliance have no difference between themselves whatsoever?

[Darklurker]

“We can divide the Alliance only if the war to conquer Darnassus does not unite them against us. That only happens if the Horde wins an honorable victory, and I am not blind—the Horde does not trust me to wage war that way.”

"There is no honor in this! They will come for us now! All of them!"

I do like how the novellas and videos tie it all together.

[Deleted]

Honestly, I think both of those novellas were great, but the Horde one is almost a masterpiece. Not only for the story itself, but also in the way it describes how Sylvanas makes Saurfang not only join her war against the Alliance and above all, Stormwind, which she at the beginning of Before the Storm didn't quite know how to do yet, but also to actually make the plan, execute the plan and tricks him into being the one responsible for everything. From the first death to the burning of the tree, all his plan and the burning itself his fault because of his failure.
Really she even splits him from Baine along the way, because when he asks if it's Saurfang's plan or the warchief's he needs reassurance that it's going to be ok without him stepping in and maybe trying to stop it. And Saurfang tells him it is his plan.

I actually think this is all part of Sylvanas's plan and now I'm convinced the dreadlords should send their noobs to take some lessons from her. Absolutely stunningly genious evil.

[SirCowdog]

These novels were written months ago so you can't call retcon. The way they're rolling this story out in game is absolute shit though.

It would not have taken any established writing team "a couple of months" to write something so short. But yes, they were likely already written in some form, possibly as potential warbringer story candidates or supplementary lore that was altered to fit this new explanation.

But yeah, I'm salty. I make no excuses for that. I think I have good reason to be, though.

[Sinistrem]

But there's been so much inconsistency on what it actually means to be Horde and what they fight for that you now have some weird split in the Horde playerbase (from what I can see) of some people fist pumping going 'this is great' while the others are just confused thinking 'this isn't what I signed up for and Blizzard fucked up big time with that.

But that's actually amazing, big props to blizz showing that rift between two halves of the Horde, cause that's Exactly how the races in the Horde must be feeling right now!

• The Horde started out as Orcs, Trolls and Taurens being honorable savages who want to live peacefully and left alone.
• But then they invited Forsaken, whose goal in vanilla was to create a blight to wipe out all life, including Horde, and Sylvanas hoping to manipulate Horde to help her.
• Then came Blood Elves, radical revanchist faction that viewed Horde as a tool and frontline cannon fodder.
• Then Goblins who literally have no morals whatsoever and would gladly do anything to save their skin.
• Now we have Nightborne who went from openly saying they are going to rule the world to keeping it to themselves and Zandalari who literally proclaim to be Master race.

I count Highmountain as Tauren, and don't view Pandas as actual race since they are willing immigrants if anything.

Those races are from two camps, one that wants to peacefully coexsist and one that wants to gain more power at any cost. We also have Druid players who wouldn't accept Teldrassil burning no matter what and Death Knights throwing parties among Night elven corpses, praising Lich Queen.

We have Baine who probably sleeps with Anduin dakimakura, and we have Talanji, who thinks Zandalari were too passive and should really amp up the effort to claim their rightful place at the top.

And they probably want to explore this rift, to find out "what is the heart of the Horde?"

Both Sylvanas and Saurfang are specifically made extremly polarising to be loved by one part of the Horde and be called idiots by another part of the Horde.

[Nefarious Tea]

Sylvanas, and even Saurfang, conducted their war based on a flawed principle due to their inability to really understand the bond between Humanity, the Worgen, and the Night Elves. They thought the wound inflicted to the Kaldorei would foment infighting and chaos among the Alliance as Greymane and Tyrande fought over whose wounds deserved redress first - they couldn't conceive of a state where Greymane would put the Kaldorei ahead of his own people, conducting himself honorably and charitably in recognition of what his people owed the Kaldorei. Oddly enough, Saurfang didn't factor in to his equation that humans (or Worgen) could also be honorable - and that meant that the plan was always doomed to failure even if it had gone to plan in Darkshore.

Well exactly. Even as players we would never in a million years think Greymane would do that because thinking of anything but his quest for petty vengeance is SO OUTSIDE OF HIS CHARACTER THAT IT MAKES NO SENSE.

[NED funded]

This deffo caught my eye:

The warchief did not disappoint. “If a hundred years of peace ends with a war that annihilates both sides, it was not a worthy goal. It was a coward’s bargain, trading the future for temporary comfort. The Horde’s children, and their children’s children, will curse our memories as they burn.” Her voice softened, but only slightly. “If life had any mercy at all, you and I would exist in peace for the rest of our days. We both have seen enough of war, but neither of us has seen the last of it.”

A hundred years is a lot of time. I know Sylvanas is an elf and now undead, but it still quite the time, Anduin and Genn are probably going to die by then.

[owbu]

The kaldorei knew they were outnumbered. They knew their homeland was lost. Maybe a few of them knew in their hearts—just as she knew—that Darnassus would one day burn to ashes. All they could do, in their rage, was make these poor souls suffer.

And [Elune] wouldn’t be the only force beyond the Alliance to oppose Sylvanas’s true objective.
She had known this would happen. It had simply come sooner than expected. That was all.

Probably has been discussed somewhere, but..what the hell does that mean? Sylvanas thinks the first one before she even enters Darkshore. The second one is moments before she burns the tree.
Sounds like burning the tree was always part of the end goal and that it doesn't have anything to do with defeating the alliance.

The only thing that kinda makes sense is that she is trying to murder Azeroth. That would explain her obsession with the night elves and particularly Malfurion (they healed the last wound) and with inflicting wounds that cant heal and why she doesnt really seem to give a fuck about the whole "giant sword in world" situation.

[SirCowdog]

Saurfang isn't the beating heart of the Horde, at least no more than Sylvanas is. And I think that he has so much internal trouble despite being a brilliant general and fighter is what makes him one of the best characters the Horde has right now. The heart of the Horde and what brought him back was the next generation, which, represented in Zekhan is what brings Saurfang back for a little while and is what Sylvanas convinces him with.

Ion literally says that's how they're portraying him. :/

[Jastall]

I don't want to be rude to other people sensibilities. You like what you like and that is fine. But i can't help to find it funny how Horde fans feel that any shred of integrity, or moral fortitude, to be such ridiculous and alien concepts that they might as well be super powers. That a character helping others in need to be such an outlandish concept, and so far removed from reality, that it could only be bad writing.

This whole "morally gray" thing we're going through seems to have trained people to assume the worse in people, that any thing else should be restricted to comic books and disney movies. But acting on your flaws, indulging your vices to get what you want and claiming to regret it later, doesn't make you "interesting" or "complex", just another weak jerk that can't conceive of a worthy existence that goes beyond itself. It's easy i guess, no need for self reflection or sacrifices. No wonder is so appealing.

Me personally, i like to hear from the people that actually give a damn, and want to make things better, even if its hard and you're not always sure if you're accomplishing anything.

Is the WoW lore good enough to warrant this attention? God no, it still a video game trying to tell a story that can't have any consequence because of game play restrictions. But to say that the Alliance is badly written, because they have a sense of good and evil, is just weird.

There's a pretty large difference between ''these people have a moral compass'' and ''these people literally do not disagree on anything and everyone is 100% on board with all of each other's plans with no doubts, conflicts or second opinions whatsoever''.

The former could be good writing, the latter is just kind of boring to read. I'm not saying the Alliance should splinter or face the same amount of drama as the Horde does, but more disagreements and debate would have been more interesting than everyone following Anduin without question.

[metzger84]

I've yet to read the Horde part of the story, but the Alliance one was very emotional. It really carries the weight of how something as magnificent and serene as Darnassus can fall to the hands of complete assholes, while cementing the division between both factions.

Well done, very entertaining Btw death to Sylvanas. Saurfang and all his flunkies can go to hell, too.

[Aucald]

Well exactly. Even as players we would never in a million years think Greymane would do that because thinking of anything but his quest for petty vengeance is SO OUTSIDE OF HIS CHARACTER THAT IT MAKES NO SENSE.

I was surprised myself when I read the exchange between Genn, Anduin, and Tyrande - but having read it, and from Genn's perspective, I can see where he's coming from. The Gilneans do owe the Kaldorei their very souls if not their lives, as the ritual Belysra gave the Worgen restored them to themselves and saved them from having their sanity consumed by the curse. They took them in to their home and sheltered them when they lost Gilneas, they deserve the Gilneans and Genn's loyalty and patronage. Genn has a grown a lot since the days he walled his nation in and tried to ignore the plight of the rest of the world, and he's paid dearly for early ignorance and arrogance. He does backslide at times, such as his calamitous actions in Stormheim, but here he acquits himself nobly.

[Super Dickmann]

Tyrande is the one that strongly suggested to send the fleet, as the narrative indicates. And I find the idea of Genn deciding to focus on Gilneas alone to be a bit weird all around. He was OK with (or at least made no waves about) his people being exiles for several years, but now that their new home is under attack he'd ditch the Alliance if they don't retake Gilneas over all else during such a time? Nothing in his behavioral pattern indicates that. That's not a criticism of Sylvanas but of the story itself for entertaining such a thing. It's not the same as when he decided to build the wall which was after danger had passed.

I hadn't read all of Elegy at the time I wrote the comment about Tyrande, but despite her initiative on this, I think the basic approach makes sense. Were the Alliance to suffer such a crushing loss, they would have different ways to go about it and Anduin, due to his inexperience, would have a tough time being the driving force, or so Sylvanas assumes. She is wrong, but given the information she has, it's not an unreasonable assumption to make.

Total Wars are never brief, and if they are it means superweapons are involved in which case the Alliance has the upper hand and far more defensible strongholds, the tree set aside, at least until the Horde masters Azerite which they are far from accomplishing. And I never understood the whole winning only because of Jaina being held against Anduin, Sylvanas only won in Darkshore because 1) the NEs were dumb enough to advocate for stripping their borders bare in a time of tensions and 2) a plot device tunnel conjured up by a subordinate, so that makes them equal in their recklessness if anything.

There are super weapons involved and the Horde did have the edge in azerite at the time the war started, which is why Sylvanas wanted it to happen quickly before the Alliance, who have more industry and are only slightly behind catch up and war becomes unrecognizable. The thing with Jaina is that she's an unpredictable outside factor that neither Sylvanas nor Anduin envision at the time of the attack and who's absence would mean that Anduin and the Alliance would categorically lose to the Blight, as we see Genn yelling about and Anduin himself calling for Varian's help. Incidentally, I quite like Anduin in Battle for Lordaeron for the same reason I like him in the Broken Shore cutscene. Both have the right mix of idealism, goodness and inexperience, while Golden's portrayal nixes his inexperience for the most part, making him a weaker character.

By comparison, the Horde had won the moment the plan was set into motion in the sense of seizing those territories. Saurfang's army outnumbered them eight to one and even the night elves have no expectation of victory at any point after the fall scope of what's going on is revealed, focusing instead on evacuation. The absence of the tunnel would not have changed the outcome, only how soon it came. As for their forces being away, that was part of Saurfang and Sylvanas' plan, the first section of A Good War deals with their conning of the Alliance into opening itself up to make the attack possible. It's not a random, unpredictable element but a core part of the plan.

I do concede the Forsaken can reproduce far more rapidly than the Night Elves so it is a graver blow, you are right in this. That said, the NEs have a territory far better suited to unconventional warfare which they seem to put to good use, while the Horde has to deploy its entire war machine in Arathi to stop the Alliance from pushing out the Forsaken. And if there's one thign the Horde cannot afford it is to stretch its forces thin.

The night elf guerilla warfare has Kalimdor in an effective stalemate, leaning Horde, but I think the EK situation is often exaggarated. Both Gilneas and Stromgarde were essentially abandoned while Tirisfal is not an ideal staging area. Past that, Hillsbrad and Silverpine are both treated as fairly firmly Horde and Stromgarde itself actually increases in Horde presence relative to its state at any point before, it's just that it increases to being equivalent of the Alliance. Sylvanas does indeed fail in securing a speedy victory, but she does put the Horde into a
preferable position to what they had before. What happens from here on out we don't know.
@Shandalay

Yeah, I think just on a pure writing level, the Horde one is much better in its portrayal of both how fierce and brutal the night elf resistance is and how the Horde maneuver to this point. The way Saurfang is both Sylvanas' equal in planning and yet is essentially being gaslit into indulging in impulses he knows on some level are wrong are great and I think it makes both of them much more entertaining characters to read about. Saurfang reacting to the Burning was pretty harrowing stuff.

[Deleted]

Not really. The only leaders of the Alliance of Lordaeron remain in current Alliance is Genn and Mekkatorque. Among those two, only Genn was the one who broke off. Mekkatorque (and Magni / Varian, but Magni is no longer leader of the Dwarves now and Varian is dead) committed to unity. Velen, Tyrande, Malfurion and Anduin weren't around back then. Genn himself has changed for the better. Together with the fact that the Alliance of Lordaeron were actively sabotaged from within by Onyxia, I'd say that there isn't any reason to trust that current Alliance would behave the same way as the Alliance of Lordaeron if one think carefully about it.

With none of the same members except Genn? I'm not talking as a political entity (albeit I'm fairly certain the two are different, even if not sure), I'm talking about their decisions, and the current crop of the Alliance from vanilla onwards has really never faltered in their duties towards each other that I remember. Sure that makes them boring and whatnot, but it's in the story all the same.

it is indeed the same alliance whether you like it or not, exactly the same. the alliance NEVER disbanded. it just accepted new members and changed capital. it IS indeed though the exact continuation of the alliance of lordaeron. proof here by the mighty aquamonkey, and chris metzen himself.

It's the same Alliance according to the WoW manual:

The noble humans of Stormwind are a proud, tenacious race. They bravely fought the orcish Horde for generations as the patrons of the Grand Alliance.
[...]
Nearly four years later, the defenders of Stormwind stand vigilant against any who would threaten the sanctity of their lands. Situated in the foothills of Elwynn Forest, Stormwind City is one of the last bastions of human power in the world. The child-king Anduin Wrynn rules the people of Stormwind, who remain steadfast in their commitment to the Grand Alliance. Backed by their stalwart allies, the armies of Stormwind have been called away to once again fight the savage Horde on distant battlefields. With the armies gone, the defense of Stormwind now falls to its proud citizens.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 168

Even so, when the orcs invaded Azeroth and set out to conquer the human, elven, and dwarven lands, the dwarves offered to join the Grand Alliance.
[...]
An integral part of the Grand Alliance, the rugged dwarven armies have been called away to battle the merciless Horde in faraway lands. In these perilous times, the defense of the mountain kingdom falls to brave dwarves like you. The spirits of the dwarven kings watch over you, and the very mountains are your strength. The future of your people is in your hands.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 170

It's the same Alliance according to Genn, Tyrande, and Varian.

“It’s about the summit, Archdruid.”
“Of course. Gilneas is one of the most prominent reasons I sought to bring it to fruition. Your people’s admission to the Alliance is—”
“Re-admission, you mean,” the king growled with much bitterness.
--Wolfheart, p. 140

Tyrande, touching her husband’s hand, took command of events again. “You have witnessed the might of Gilneas and heard its request to enter back into the Alliance!”
--Wolfheart, p.332

Varian says: “As I’ve already said to many, I find nothing worthy, nothing honorable, in this pack of hounds . . . and so I will never vote aye to their admission back into the fold!”
--Wolfheart, p. 337

It's the same Alliance according to Metzen himself:

The various cultures of Azeroth, who were never fast friends. There was no love lost between them. They had no common heritage. They had no common history. They really didn't like each other down the stretch of years. But in the face of this onslaught—in response to these badass orc leaders—they came together. And they founded a union based on honor and righteousness. And a deep seeded drive to dispense indiscriminate justice upon those who threatened their homelands. This Alliance saved the world. Alliance, do you remember who you are!? YOU ARE THE ALLIANCE OF LORDAERON! Champions of justice and I love you for it. (BlizzCon2013)

Lordaeron, Dalaran, Quel'Thalas, Ironforge, and Wildhammer were all present. Gnomes, Stormwind, and Kul Tiras were still part of the Alliance, they just didn't make an appearance there as they were preoccupied. Gilneas left the Alliance before the Third War and Stromgarde was destroyed. NElves joined forces with the Alliance in Kalimdor. Draenei hadn't joined the Alliance yet.

[Sinistrem]

Prediction: Sylvanas will not be Garroshed, neither will Horde get redeemed in any way.

The entire expansion before old gods show up will be both sides commiting escalating atrocities against each other.

We've just got prepatch and players already hate each other this much, imagine how it will be after several more of these events on each side.

After this Blizz no longer have to justify, why Horde and Alliance are at each others throats after defeating another Big Bad, and no longer have to bear with ppl asking "faction barrier gone when?"

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

By the moons’ glow, listen.
Beside the river, listen.
Holding those you love, listen:
To the cries of the dying,
To the whisper of the wind over the silent dead,
To the song my broken heart will ever sing
Of the story of the Tree of the World
And the death of all the dreams
It once cradled in its mighty boughs.

~ Christie Golden
(from "Elegy")

[Goradan]

Thrall's biggest weakness was his inability to have people enforce his vision of the Horde and allow personal admiration of Garrosh get in the way. There was too few people to keep his vision alive and the moment someone DOES come when they die, it's gonna give assholes more power.

[Arrashi]

Oh look kolee makes yet another darnassus thread.

You really could had posted that in one of existing ones. Especially since you made them.

[Jastall]

By comparison, the Horde had won the moment the plan was set into motion in the sense of seizing those territories. Saurfang's army outnumbered them eight to one and even the night elves have no expectation of victory at any point after the fall scope of what's going on is revealed, focusing instead on evacuation. The absence of the tunnel would not have changed the outcome, only how soon it came. As for their forces being away, that was part of Saurfang and Sylvanas' plan, the first section of A Good War deals with their conning of the Alliance into opening itself up to make the attack possible. It's not a random, unpredictable element but a core part of the plan.

My beef is more that the NEs so easily fall for the plan. Masters of 10 000+ years of warfare, ardent defenders of their land, strip their borders bare to send their forces across an entire continent based on a few spy reports? They could easily have scouted any Horde displacement, hell a druid does in Elegy. It's a long way from the Barrens to Silithus, and the Horde war machine is a cumbersome thing that needs supplying by Kodos if marching on land. Sending an entire army as first response when they have ships, which are far faster than a landborne army, is very rash.

The tunnel absolutely changed the outcome and was unpredictable. Malfurion's wall meant that the Horde's number advantage counted for nothing, and Sylvanas had no means to bypass it entirely... until Saurfang had an eureka moment, went and found it as if guided by the writer's very hand. With his attack, the Wisps dispersed, the Horde could intercept the NE fleet before it fully made landfall, and overran the defense. It instantly changed a relatively stalemate into a crushing victory. That's just as significant as Jaina's dynamic entry.

And time is the most precious of resources in such an operation. Given time, the Night Elf fleet can come back and reinforce the defense rather than be gunned from by Demolishers from the shore (just how overpowered are these things, anyway?). Give more time and the Alliance army arrives, leaving the Horde with an almost certain defeat which ends the war before it truly begins.

[Arrashi]

"Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide."

How will sylvanas fanboys dig their way out of this one?

Well actually everything that we see is result of our varied and limited perception. As such statement "Sylvanas commited genocide" is both true and false at the same time.