Is it a Genocide? Lets settle this.

[Deleted]

So there is a lot of talk in Sylvanas threads about War of Thorns being a genocide or not in the end.

First lets have some sources on what is a Genocide:
Wikipedia
Urban Dictionary
UN site

So i would start ba saying that the original attack or the original intent clearly was not a genocide, she wanted to kill a symbol - Malfurion,
And capture the the world tree, which isnt merely a city, it is a whole country, homeland to Night Elves as Tyrande said in Elegy i think most of Night Elven population was locaten on Teldrassil.

I would personally take the UN definition as most accurate, so lets look at what UN has to say about this:

There are two partr, the definition and the elements of the crime itself:
Definition:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Elements of the Crime:

The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
The intent is the most difficult element to determine. To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. It is this special intent, or dolus specialis, that makes the crime of genocide so unique. In addition, case law has associated intent with the existence of a State or organizational plan or policy, even if the definition of genocide in international law does not include that element.

Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention (which excludes political groups, for example). This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. Genocide can also be committed against only a part of the group, as long as that part is identifiable (including within a geographically limited area) and “substantial.”

So lets break this down:

Mental element - The Intent, many argue that its not personal and that it could be any other race if they were in Darnassus, no. Intent of Sylvanas is to destroy "atleast" in part Alliance, plain and simple, she even actively intends to genocide Stormwind and raise the whole population. And honestly because genocide applies as destroying even a part of a group, there cant be discussion to be had about the intent of the genocide, even if that was a means to the end. You can even have "peaceful" genocide as seen above,

The Physical element:

She killed alot of people on massive scale,
It was systematic destruction, wasnt accidental, not being part of original plan doesnt make it non systematic:
Definition:

1 : relating to or consisting of a system
2 : presented or formulated as a coherent body of ideas or principles systematic thought
3 a : methodical in procedure or plan a systematic approach a systematic scholar
b : marked by thoroughness and regularity systematic efforts
4 : of, relating to, or concerned with classification; specifically : taxonomic

While unplaned, she as a responsible leader of a force consensually gave order to destroy the country/world tree.
The order was then systematicaly executed by the Army, with the intent of destruction,
Everyone knew what they were doing, nothing much to be said here.

And frankly as seen above in physical elements it doesnt even have to be systematic destruction or extermination

Genocide does not have to be as systematic as holocaust, done in concentration camps, nuking or bombing lets say Prague to ash, because the city defenders wouldnt give up after you failed to assassinate the president for example, would be genocide.
Even if your end goal isnt extermination and just subjugation or annexation and you sentence alot of people to death just so enemy surrenders is still a genocide in my understanding of UN definition.

So i guess Sylvanas did commit a genocide

[Accendor]

So i guess Sylvanas did commit a genocide

Very good post. However just a small correction:
Sylvanas ordered a genocide.
The horde commited a genocide.

[CerealLord]

If we go by her words, she was not trying to destroy the Alliance. She wanted to ensure the Horde's survival by controlling the flow of Azerite on Kalimdor. I wouldn't think this is a genocide. If she then followed around the Nelfs and killed them in every area, then yes.

But that is my lowly opinion.

[MrMatticus]

Wasn't genocide. No one wants nelfs around.

[Accendor]

If we go by her words, she was not trying to destroy the Alliance. She wanted to ensure the Horde's survival by controlling the flow of Azerite on Kalimdor. I wouldn't think this is a genocide. If she then followed around the Nelfs and killed them in every area, then yes.

But that is my lowly opinion.

I am very glad the UN does not share your opinion ;-)

[Deleted]

If we go by her words, she was not trying to destroy the Alliance. She wanted to ensure the Horde's survival by controlling the flow of Azerite on Kalimdor. I wouldn't think this is a genocide. If she then followed around the Nelfs and killed them in every area, then yes.

But that is my lowly opinion.

I dont think i get this, what i wanted to get across is that it doesnt matter what your end game is, you can commit on genocide on your way there, doesnt matter if you are trying to secure Azerite on Kalimdor, in the end she wanted to do it by destroying Teldrassil. You simply cannot destroy homes without destroying the people in them.

[Syegfryed]

Very good post. However just a small correction:
Sylvanas ordered a genocide.
The horde commited a genocide.

if she is part of he horde, and leader of the horde, she also committed...

[Deleted]

If we go by her words, she was not trying to destroy the Alliance. She wanted to ensure the Horde's survival by controlling the flow of Azerite on Kalimdor. I wouldn't think this is a genocide. If she then followed around the Nelfs and killed them in every area, then yes.

But that is my lowly opinion.

If we go by Hitlers word's i'd assume he would say the same. Replace Azerite with money.

[RobertMugabe]

We totally Need yet another thread about this. Where are the mods?

[MrSaggins]

It's an ethnic cleansing. For them, ideally there would either be no Kaldorei on Kalimdor or those remaining would be wholly subservient. The intent was to break spirits (like the a-bombs in Japan) but the side affect of the method was clearly killing most of them. So if your goal is to have sole control of a continent, and you're targeting an nation of people and making them exiles by destroying their homes with no intent to capture them then you're cleansing the continent of an ethnicity. Semantics. If they hunt the remaining Kaldorei down across the ocean with the specific aim of killing them it will be genocide.

[Steampunkette]

Your logic is flawed out of the gate.

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Genocide requires the intent to wipe out a people, culture, or way of life.

Sylvanas's intent was to commit a massacre and force the Alliance into a war.

Heinous and despicable, evil as the day is long in Alaskan Summer, but not Genocide.

[Deleted]

It's an ethnic cleansing. For them, ideally there would either be no Kaldorei on Kalimdor or those remaining would be wholly subservient. The intent was to break spirits (like the a-bombs in Japan) but the side affect of the method was clearly killing most of them. So if your goal is to have sole control of a continent, and you're targeting an nation of people and making them exiles by destroying their homes with no intent to capture them then you're cleansing the continent of an ethnicity. If they hunted the remaining Kaldorei down across the ocean with the specific aim of killing them it would be genocide.

Oh no it doesnt have to be totat destruction of the people, only partial one qualifies. In the end she inteded to burn the tree and by that commiting the mass murder.
She qualifies in three definitions:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

But the third is arguable, wouldnt change a thing if it did anyway

- - - Updated - - -

Your logic is flawed out of the gate.



Genocide requires the intent to wipe out a people, culture, or way of life.

Sylvanas's intent was to commit a massacre and force the Alliance into a war.

Heinous and despicable, evil as the day is long in Alaskan Summer, but not Genocide.

Even partly qualifies. The motive behind the bigger conflict doesnt apply tho. At the end of War of Thorns she burned the tree willingly and with intent to kill the people within.

[tyrlaan]

I'm confused by the underlying premise of this thread.

Is it only a bad thing if it we can label it genocide?

I feel like razing a capital city, most certainly chock full of children and unarmed civilians, with no warning qualifies as a pretty damn shitty thing to do, especially when you're not even at war yet.

Imagine if America bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki to start the war. Yeah, it wouldn't be genecide, but I'm not sure what knowing that does for anyone.

[Steampunkette]

Even partly qualifies. The motive behind the bigger conflict doesnt apply tho. At the end of War of Thorns she burned the tree willingly and with intent to kill the people within.

But not the intent to kill THE PEOPLE. Her intent wasn't to destroy Nelves as a culture or a society.

By the stretching of the definition of genocide to the degree you're doing, every conflict where "Some Number" of a cultural group are the victims of the attack is a "War of Genocide". Any war of conquest becomes a genocidal conflict by definition because civilians WILL DIE. There's no 2 ways about it in warfare.

[Deleted]

There is nothing to discuss. The writers outright stated in the short-novel Elegy that Sylvanas Windrunner committed genocide. It was not a biased in-universe character who made that statement, it was the 3rd person omniscient narrator.

[metzger84]

How you guys aren't tired of regurgitating the same topic over, and over again, I'll never know. Have at it.

[FriendOrTraitor]

There is nothing to discuss. The writers outright stated in the short-novel Elegy that Sylvanas Windrunner committed genocide. It was not a biased in-universe character who made that statement, it was the 3rd person omniscient narrator.

Baldercrap! The narrator clearly was out to get Sylvanas. Alliance bias strikes again!

/s

[MrSaggins]

Genocide requires the intent to wipe out a people, culture, or way of life.

There is precedent for the ruling of innocence in accidental genocide from the Yugoslav Wars:

The Chamber finds that in spite of evidence of acts perpetrated in the municipalities which constituted the actus reus of genocide, the chamber has not received sufficient evidence to establish whether the perpetrators had genocidal intent, that is the intent to destroy, the Bosnian-Muslim or Bosnian-Croat ethnic group, as such,” says the summary.

The only reasonable conclusion that could be taken from this formulation is that genocide took place in Bosnia merely by accident.

https://iwpr.net/global-voices/bosni...ental-genocide

[tikcol]

What a ridiculous post. You have no idea what genocide is if you think burning a tree which happens to have night elves in it is considered genocide.

[Deleted]

You can argue semantics all you want, fact is Sylvanas ordered the burning of the Night Elven capital ending countless innocent lives.