Children of the Stars or Children of the Forest

[Beloren]

Is it me or do the current version of night elves feel a lot more like children of the forest rather than children of the stars.

Where are all the star bits to them? It’s like blizzard only reinforced the forest live and went silent on the stars, but then when I looked back at Warcraft 3 and WotA, they went quiet on nearly everything about the night elves, quiet on Elune, quiet on the Well of Eternity, quiet on the highborne and the Kaldorei empire, quiet on the Amazonian warrior female.

It’s like all night elves became about post wow was the forest, what do they have to do with the stars? I get elves love forests and flowers a lot, but don’t they also love magic and aren’t the night elves supposed to be star focused?

Has blizzard lost the heart of this race? I may have been more interested in a truly star /moon themed group, but I have little interest in forest elves

[matrix123mko]

Highborne(Alliance) are interested in stars. We also have Nightborne and Blood Elves who research the stars. Night Elves lost their stellar identity when Malfurion forced them to his wicked relligion.

[ravenmoon]

Definitely the Stars, and they show it a lot, with your head buried up the horde's arse so much you dont see the full niht elf perspective, and blizzard has sucked on advancing them, legion was the first real advance since wow began.

If you also read the novels and comics, played wc3, you would see, you would also see it plainly in the nightborne too, everything about them is.

The nighthold mages, the Moon Priestesses and the balance druids, from the 3 night elven cores of the arcane, nature and the divine all cast star and moon spells.

Night elf mobs and npcs, whether kaldorei or shal'doreI speak of the Stars all the time. Stars guide you, we see the Stars once more.

It could do with more, but the art team show it plenty, look at Suramar, temples of the moon, zin'azshari it's all there.

It really is only the druids that are super into nature, and focused all on trees, but because outside night elf only specific content you only see druids, most of you goons who don't know night elf lore think of them more was children of the trees.

Blizzard shown a lot, but could do more

[Cradyz]

Well they pretty much swore off the arcane after WotA right? Like that's why we have belfs. I mean if you want arcane elves, look at you profile picture.

[Aucald]

I believe the "Children of the Stars" appellation is because of their nocturnal natures - Kaldorei are more powerful, more ferocious, and more adept at fighting at night (along with the skills to back that up). Their love of nature came later on, post-Sundering, when Druidism became the leitmotif of their culture over use of the Arcane. You could just as easily call them "Children of the Night" if you preferred, though I think "Children of the Stars" has a more poetic ring to it (and perhaps isn't as ominous).

[Astro420]

I guess the stars have judged them and found them...wanting.

[Raetary]

and no one thought of that maybe they call themselves children of the stars because they are born on kalimdor, the land of eternal starlight?

[Magnagarde]

They're a bit of both I'd say. Elune clearly affiliates them to celestial bodies, whereas the whole nature and forest theme comes as something that is supposed to humble them. Reaching out for the stars by the Kaldorei resulted in the near destruction of all of Azeroth, which is why sticking to the ground, forests and dirt has become equally, if not more important to them.

[Gothic Knight]

During W3 it was females are stars and males are forest. In WoW Blizzard fucked up this and whole Night Elf business. Pathological idiots what to say.

[viridian-716]

I believe the "Children of the Stars" appellation is because of their nocturnal natures - Kaldorei are more powerful, more ferocious, and more adept at fighting at night (along with the skills to back that up). Their love of nature came later on, post-Sundering, when Druidism became the leitmotif of their culture over use of the Arcane. You could just as easily call them "Children of the Night" if you preferred, though I think "Children of the Stars" has a more poetic ring to it (and perhaps isn't as ominous).

100% correct. NELFs believed Elune (the moon) slept in the Well during the day; in turn, they too slept during the day.

[Techno-Druid]

Kalimdor is the "land of eternal starlight" and Elune (Azeroth's largest moon, also called the White Lady or Mu'sha) is the patron goddess of the kaldorei.

[Soeroah]

As has been said.. they were named after Kalimdor, based on old titan ruins they found, and they worshiped the moon goddess, so they became nocturnal.

[Beloren]

As has been said.. they were named after Kalimdor, based on old titan ruins they found, and they worshiped the moon goddess, so they became nocturnal.

That sounds a bit made up and guess work. You could be right about the first bit, but the second bit is rubbish. No offense. They were always nocturnal, before they learned about the moon goddess.

And it is possible they are named Children of the Stars because of Kalimdor being the land of eternal starlight, but that doesn't really make sense, that would make them the children of the land, not the stars. I think blizzard meant it to be more than that. Just because it is a fantasy game doesn't mean we shouldn't engage hare heads. If Kalaimdore is the land of the eternal stalight, and they are named after that, it would make the children of the land, not the children of the stars. So that's obviously not the case.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe the "Children of the Stars" appellation is because of their nocturnal natures - Kaldorei are more powerful, more ferocious, and more adept at fighting at night (along with the skills to back that up). Their love of nature came later on, post-Sundering, when Druidism became the leitmotif of their culture over use of the Arcane. You could just as easily call them "Children of the Night" if you preferred, though I think "Children of the Stars" has a more poetic ring to it (and perhaps isn't as ominous).

I think it was more than poetry, the moon priests called down the stars, the mages call down the moon and stars (Nighthold casters ). It is probably meant more than we have been shown, an oversight on their part? Got a carried away with the nature side of them they forgot to show the moon/star side?

- - - Updated - - -

Definitely the Stars, and they show it a lot, with your head buried up the horde's arse so much you dont see the full niht elf perspective, and blizzard has sucked on advancing them, legion was the first real advance since wow began.

If you also read the novels and comics, played wc3, you would see, you would also see it plainly in the nightborne too, everything about them is.

The nighthold mages, the Moon Priestesses and the balance druids, from the 3 night elven cores of the arcane, nature and the divine all cast star and moon spells.

Night elf mobs and npcs, whether kaldorei or shal'doreI speak of the Stars all the time. Stars guide you, we see the Stars once more.

It could do with more, but the art team show it plenty, look at Suramar, temples of the moon, zin'azshari it's all there.

It really is only the druids that are super into nature, and focused all on trees, but because outside night elf only specific content you only see druids, most of you goons who don't know night elf lore think of them more was children of the trees.

Blizzard shown a lot, but could do more

i.e. in other words, blizzard meant more than they actually ended up ever making out to be. Gosh, when blizzard abandon you, they really abandonn

And fyi, my head isn't as far up the horde's arse as yours is up the alliance elves. But so far, I think you're right, it's just an aspect to the night elves we have yet to see.

Maybe because until Legion, they've been consumed with fighting the legion, so we haven't seen who they truly are, who they originally were before the sundering, and before this burden of retaliation. Suramar does show a lot more star/moon culture than we ever saw - but then, blizzard show night elves much better in every area in Legion, like they never have in wow. They show DHs better, Highborne better, pre-sundering kaldorei empire is shown for the first time in Suramar, druids are shown much better in Val'sharah, and although priests are still a bit mysterious, you get to see more in the Tomb of Sargeras and the death of Ysera scene.


So i suspect, they really haven't fleshed this race out in wow properly yet, for so big a race in WC3, , they started focusing on our faction and never got the chance to do it. and they may never.

Still it woudl be interesting, because the nightborne are also a part of this legacy. so with the m added to the horde, we might se more of the Kal in kaldorei. I wonder if the Shal'dorei are like the Quel'dorei - they consider themselves Kaldorei , but just a special type of kaldorei. Or if they are more like the blood elves in that they consider themselves something totally new. I really don't know, the Suramar quests they feel and sound very kaldorei, but like the quel'dorei highborne, you never once hear them refer to themselves as kaldorei - and it erally isn't a race change, it's more like Quel'dorei is name of distinction so it comes first, kaldorei is what everyone is, and the l lesser caste don't have any honourific to them.

[Techno-Druid]

I don't think you're meant to take the 'star' part of 'children of the stars' literally. They're nocturnal, worship Elune/White Lady and live in 'the land of eternal starlight'.

[ravenmoon]

I don't think you're meant to take the 'star' part of 'children of the stars' literally. They're nocturnal, worship Elune/White Lady and live in 'the land of eternal starlight'.

Not literal, but more than poetry, it I s a moon goddess they worship, they call their land the land of Eternal starlight, the focus is on the stars.

You hear them say Stars guide you, or we see the Stars once more. And their magic in all their caster classes has stars and moons being called out.

When I hear children of the stars I think of a people that look to the stars, where the stars and moon are a huge focus. Forest appeals to druids more than anyone. You can be forest loving but have other things like the arcane, the stars or Elune as your focus.

I suspect as we really hadn't seen much of actual kaldorei culture till Suramar, the Long vigil I suspect had a dual culture, but one that was not life as normal, it was life on a watch and on a task. So it was very order specific.

Druids had a task with the greenflight and the guardian wild gods of Azeroth, and priests fulfilled the Watch mandate, civilians? I don't think they had a normal life during this time, and we haven't seen much.

So my guess is the star culture is something that will emerge now the night elves are creating a civilization for themselves, probably a mix of arcane (now it's back), nature and Elune. This is my guess, and we will have to look to hints of this star culture in the pre-sundering era, but it is not like we have night elf books that flesh out cultural detail, WotA was not business as usual for the Kaldorei, it was a time the Light of lights had gone off the rails, and the highborne had become really arrogant and the first demons had been let through, this is where the booj starts, not night elf civilization at its best and purest, but already in decadent decline due to arrogance that has already led to thorough addiction in most of its elite caste..

Suramar shown in Legion picks up from that weird period, it is not the normal for night elves, and this is why I think the nightborne even as night elves will be a bit different from Farondis highborne who seem moulded after a pre-arrogance era, and shen'dralar who are post sundering "oh shit we really fucked up realization". Nightborne in Suramar are exactly like WotA describes Suramar, but showing you these night elves had nobility still in them. Lunastre wants to remind them who they once were as she asks us to help stir her people up to remember who they are, the demon defying , anti corruption kaldorei.

At least this is my assessment from reading many of your comments and the source material. This means we haven't really seen their unique culture properly, the extent of the star culture, where the name kaldorei is birthed from.

I think it gives blizzard something new to flesh out for them, and if my guess is right, I suspect they became this in the best period of their existence, I.e. before any legion, before the hardship of the Long vigil, when they were spreading across the globe and excelling in arcane and priestly knowledge, and had their nature respecting and living side. Before Azshara started getting super arrogant and pushing them like crazy to discover more. Life was full of wonder, peace, knowledge and discovery, the optimal setting to super excel and advance, before all the knowledge gets to your head or tempts you to think you are like a goddess, because of how wonderful things have become under your tenure and how you are the heart of a people that make the impossible possible all the time.

This is is the side of the night elves I'd love to see most of. We have seen a lot of the druidic culture, we know the arcane culture fairly well, the high alert vigil culture shown in the Sentinels and Wardens is also known - now it is just how these guys actually live normally and go about things. Comments like Stars Guide you, or Elune light your path or For Cenarius really aren't enough to show you what a Star culture or Elune culture or Druidic culture actually looks like.

So bearing in mind what has been done to show us druidic life in Val'sharah or the sisterhood of Elune in the temples, we need to see their actual culture, and Darnassus didn't portray this well, as if the devs who brought it to life could only think of wc3 sentinels, druids and priests, but as the night elves are only for the first time in 10k years starting a civilization, and they have the arcane still banned at this stage, the fuller meaning of their culture is undertandble yet to be brought out as it is missing a key facet, the arcane bit and has just emerged from a 10k year focused period of vigil.

[MikeBogina]

I don't know much about the current Highborne(besides Maiev killing them) but the Nightborne seem to be the closest to "Children of the Stars" more than the current Night Elves who became feral for a long time and are just now becoming more civilized. The night elves cut out arcane from their society and focus on Elune(light) and the Wild Gods(nature) where the Nightborne seems to have focused more on the stars(arcane).

High Elves(Blood Elves) are also arcane focused and their Sunwell is technically a named star well xD

Then you see that Azshara Warbringer and you see an even cooler Suramar,

So yeah I think it's fair to say the Night Elves who kept the Kaldorei name, are the ones to least represent what Children of the Stars is, if you believe it means some superior elf race that's all about that arcane.

[Techno-Druid]

Not literal, but more than poetry, it I s a moon goddess they worship, they call their land the land of Eternal starlight, the focus is on the stars.

You hear them say Stars guide you, or we see the Stars once more. And their magic in all their caster classes has stars and moons being called out.

When I hear children of the stars I think of a people that look to the stars, where the stars and moon are a huge focus. Forest appeals to druids more than anyone. You can be forest loving but have other things like the arcane, the stars or Elune as your focus.

I suspect as we really hadn't seen much of actual kaldorei culture till Suramar, the Long vigil I suspect had a dual culture, but one that was not life as normal, it was life on a watch and on a task. So it was very order specific.

Druids had a task with the greenflight and the guardian wild gods of Azeroth, and priests fulfilled the Watch mandate, civilians? I don't think they had a normal life during this time, and we haven't seen much.

So my guess is the star culture is something that will emerge now the night elves are creating a civilization for themselves, probably a mix of arcane (now it's back), nature and Elune. This is my guess, and we will have to look to hints of this star culture in the pre-sundering era, but it is not like we have night elf books that flesh out cultural detail, WotA was not business as usual for the Kaldorei, it was a time the Light of lights had gone off the rails, and the highborne had become really arrogant and the first demons had been let through, this is where the booj starts, not night elf civilization at its best and purest, but already in decadent decline due to arrogance that has already led to thorough addiction in most of its elite caste..

Suramar shown in Legion picks up from that weird period, it is not the normal for night elves, and this is why I think the nightborne even as night elves will be a bit different from Farondis highborne who seem moulded after a pre-arrogance era, and shen'dralar who are post sundering "oh shit we really fucked up realization". Nightborne in Suramar are exactly like WotA describes Suramar, but showing you these night elves had nobility still in them. Lunastre wants to remind them who they once were as she asks us to help stir her people up to remember who they are, the demon defying , anti corruption kaldorei.

At least this is my assessment from reading many of your comments and the source material. This means we haven't really seen their unique culture properly, the extent of the star culture, where the name kaldorei is birthed from.

I think it gives blizzard something new to flesh out for them, and if my guess is right, I suspect they became this in the best period of their existence, I.e. before any legion, before the hardship of the Long vigil, when they were spreading across the globe and excelling in arcane and priestly knowledge, and had their nature respecting and living side. Before Azshara started getting super arrogant and pushing them like crazy to discover more. Life was full of wonder, peace, knowledge and discovery, the optimal setting to super excel and advance, before all the knowledge gets to your head or tempts you to think you are like a goddess, because of how wonderful things have become under your tenure and how you are the heart of a people that make the impossible possible all the time.

This is is the side of the night elves I'd love to see most of. We have seen a lot of the druidic culture, we know the arcane culture fairly well, the high alert vigil culture shown in the Sentinels and Wardens is also known - now it is just how these guys actually live normally and go about things. Comments like Stars Guide you, or Elune light your path or For Cenarius really aren't enough to show you what a Star culture or Elune culture or Druidic culture actually looks like.

So bearing in mind what has been done to show us druidic life in Val'sharah or the sisterhood of Elune in the temples, we need to see their actual culture, and Darnassus didn't portray this well, as if the devs who brought it to life could only think of wc3 sentinels, druids and priests, but as the night elves are only for the first time in 10k years starting a civilization, and they have the arcane still banned at this stage, the fuller meaning of their culture is undertandble yet to be brought out as it is missing a key facet, the arcane bit and has just emerged from a 10k year focused period of vigil.

I wouldn't consider there to neccesarily be a seperate druid and priestess culture. I think each have taken up specific paths which entail different 'customs' (in the same way a Catholic Priest and a firefighter have different routines and norms) but they are both a part of a larger, common culture. Kaldorei druids hold Elune up above all other deities and any priestess in the Sisterhood of Elune would look to the dragons and wild gods will deep respect and veneration as Tyrande has done when she mourned for both Goldrinn when he fell and Ysera or when Cenarius commanded the sentinels (which are technically an extension of the Sisterhood) into battle against the Warsong Clan.

I think I would prefer for kaldorei to default to the architecture and aesthetic of WC3 because that in my opinion is the most unique and distinguishable appearance relative to the other elves, but I do believe that arcane should have a presence in modern kaldorei society, even if looked on with controversy by the more 'Pro-Vigil' elves but that also makes it somewhat more interesting.

[Soeroah]

That sounds a bit made up and guess work. You could be right about the first bit, but the second bit is rubbish. No offense. They were always nocturnal, before they learned about the moon goddess.

And it is possible they are named Children of the Stars because of Kalimdor being the land of eternal starlight, but that doesn't really make sense, that would make them the children of the land, not the stars. I think blizzard meant it to be more than that. Just because it is a fantasy game doesn't mean we shouldn't engage hare heads. If Kalaimdore is the land of the eternal stalight, and they are named after that, it would make the children of the land, not the children of the stars. So that's obviously not the case.

You're right. I checked Chronicle; the Dark Trolls were already nocturnal before they found the Well and became night elves.

However, it's pretty clear that they also found ruins that spoke of Elune and named the land Kalimdor, and other titanic words, and influenced by this knowledge they named themselves Kaldorei, "Children of the Stars". So while they may not have named themselves after the land, as such, they certainly took inspiration from it, possibly due to their nocturnal nature.

[Beloren]

I wouldn't consider there to neccesarily be a seperate druid and priestess culture. I think each have taken up specific paths which entail different 'customs' (in the same way a Catholic Priest and a firefighter have different routines and norms) but they are both a part of a larger, common culture. Kaldorei druids hold Elune up above all other deities and any priestess in the Sisterhood of Elune would look to the dragons and wild gods will deep respect and veneration as Tyrande has done when she mourned for both Goldrinn when he fell and Ysera or when Cenarius commanded the sentinels (which are technically an extension of the Sisterhood) into battle against the Warsong Clan.

I think I would prefer for kaldorei to default to the architecture and aesthetic of WC3 because that in my opinion is the most unique and distinguishable appearance relative to the other elves, but I do believe that arcane should have a presence in modern kaldorei society, even if looked on with controversy by the more 'Pro-Vigil' elves but that also makes it somewhat more interesting.

I happen to think the night elves were the purple version of the high elves. Their distincguishing factor is not ONLY wooden trees and homes, but in their character and extremity. It makes them more fluid, bigger and more intriguing than just some wood elf. Now if the wood elf is just a part of a larger whole, then they feel much more like THE original elven nation, as such you would have a much bigger variety to them, than some small niche.

It depends on blizzard, if they want small and narrow, restricted, then the only identity of the night elves would be your druidic type, but to me, the priests and amazonian warriror females struck me as very different from the druids. and then the arcane highborne, ah,there I could see how the night elves and the blood elves are very much connected. In WC3, the druids were rather mysterious, what we saw of the night elves were these beautiful women who could fight like men, and call down the stars. the men were more a mystery and Malfurion and Illidan were the only real interactions we had with night elf males.

The language of the preists and sentinels is also different from teh druids, all i get is a standard elf love for nature the high elvs and nightboorne have, the extreme lore is shown in the drudis and the fact they are in a forest, but if you factor in the circumstances blizzard proivdes for them being in a forest, then i can't even say they are particularly interested in living htis way, but they certainly seem compelled to their duty, , I think he is right on this front Techno, they are not as they seem. When the priests were amongst the arcane culture, they seemed a lot more arcane complicit, but i think they just serve their people whatever their people are doing or whatever situation is, if they can't build cities and must patrol teh forest keeping vigil, they serve that purpose, even though their life is temple life, there is no temple, they make do, and serve the people tht way.

You don't see them sleeping in barrrow dens or up in trees, that is always exclusively a druid thing.

I have been thinking based no you and RAvenmoon's discussions on what I would like more. I do like the night elves have a pruple version of elven civilization, and when I look at Suramar, I really do like that it is different from Silvermoon, it's like a richer more ornate Darnassus, and it's all in night elf colours. I like that they have this, gives me another elven front to like that is different, why just have 1 when you can have two. It's not just the night version, it is also a little different, just like their models are.

Remember they are elves so it's not going to be a complete difference, there is a lot of crosover, butenough distinction. On the physical appearances it is things like night and day, moon/stars and sun, purple & white skin etc. There is forest love in both, but night elves take it to stupid levels, there is arcane love in both, but the night elves who did arcane (and still do) also have it to stupid levels - such that they become unhealthy (nightborne) , the blood elf society is much better balanced overall - but it is an interesting way to view night elves having segregated cultures where everyone does their own thing.. whic makes the introduction of a capital like Darnassus or its replacement an interesting place. As it would be the only place they will all mix together and produce this new society you techno dpseak off.

so if both you and Ravenmoon are right, it is an intersting situation, in the various zones of the orders ( we assume the broken isles), we will ahve druids in val'sharah, highborne in Azsuna and priests in their various temples in each (Ravenmoon's projection), but in the Capital city Suramar, all the various groups will meet, from their various strongholds, citadels, vaults, lodges, ships - we'd have demon hunters, wardens, hunters, senitnels, moonguard, civilans, here and in only this place would be this culture mix producing nucleus society that's a new frontier (or maybe an old one, maybe it is like how they were before they got arrogant and they had primitive druids, mages, priests etc and went on to become an empire), but out in teh various zones, you get this distinct vlafour of each. The druid homes and towns like you see in val'sharah are so different from the quaint marble homes of Azsuna, then you have these huge elegant temples - and then a beast of a capital.

The way I am beginning to think is that the differences in the elves is much larger in our minds than it actually is in game. The night elves are more like the society split into 3 groups that are pretty much autonomous, as they are the ones still alive from the sundering, they have all the expertise there, but it is seaparated, the night elf druids have caught up to the Ancient tree druids that worked with the night elves in the arcane kingdom, but now pretty much do their thing devoted to nature and the emerald dream, the priests also great experts in their own field do their own thing, they hardly interacted with the druids, who slept, the only thing they had in common is that they both lived in the forest, but wher ethis was a druid's dream, it isn't a priests they had to make do becasue of an important job. Then the highborne who carry on the arcane that th eothers ban, live separately too, they continue with the mastery and wisdom. This is different from the high elf group btw, they had a 3,000 year break from the arcane and didn't have a fully intact city to cnotinue the Kaldorei civilization like the shen'dralar or the nightborne.

The high elves while not as expert in any of these individual areas to the extent the night elf groups are - which makes sense, they ednure a horrible exile, they diminish a bit, and they literally start from scratch, build something new, but they are integberated, just like the kaldorei empire was, however everything is at llesser state, it is less advanced. Less advanced arcane, frostr and nature love is not as developed via the botanists, and they haven't been dedicated to the Light or a goddess for nearly 15,000 years like the night elves.

however they are united, they all work together, and they are able to build an amazing civilziation, which is not on the level of the kaldorei empire, but is the closest thing to what it was. Meanwhile the night elves have nothing new. The druidic culture is the same today as it was nearly 10,000 years ago, the highborne and nightborne are in teh same cities, knowledge has advanced, but no new wonders..they are wonders for us because we never seen them, but Suramar is the same as it was 10k years ago, Edlre'thala fell to ruin 200 years ago (need to confirm if that number is corret), they are all stagnant. This is the condition the nightborne are in too. stagnant for 10k years, Thalyssra wants no more of that, and she looks at the kaldorei, nothing's changed, an dif she met the highborne nothing would have changed.

Although I am sure the night elves will once again change after the ramifications of Legion and BFA are fully filtered through, I suspect this might actually be beginning to work, live and build together ...but if they do that,they are more like everyone else -but then blizzard will say the story must go on, and i'm sure night elf fans wouldn't mind if their race improves as a consequence

- - - Updated - - -

You're right. I checked Chronicle; the Dark Trolls were already nocturnal before they found the Well and became night elves.

However, it's pretty clear that they also found ruins that spoke of Elune and named the land Kalimdor, and other titanic words, and influenced by this knowledge they named themselves Kaldorei, "Children of the Stars". So while they may not have named themselves after the land, as such, they certainly took inspiration from it, possibly due to their nocturnal nature.

But the inspiration doesn't come from the land, it comes from the enlightened knowledge. If you think about it, they are super intelligent beings, their knowledge and understanding is growing astronomical, they would know what stars mean, it indicates to mean they mean exactly what they say it is. No poetry,it is meant to be big, reaching high - this is not the broken high alert people we see in the long vigil, watching their backs, looking for demons and any sign of arcane usage that may draw them, unable to do literally nothing, not even rebuild their civilization. We must adjust our mindset from the Long vigil group and state of affairs, toe a people that look to the stars. Are climbing heights, reaching heights that have surpassed even Azeroths current civilizations, they are star focused. and the magic they wield testifies to it, when we see Suramar we see signs of it all over, and as this is the first original true night elven city we see, it speaks much more strongly than the vigil culture that has nothing to show for it but a village in Nighthaven and barrow dens. Yet even when the civilziation kicks off again after WC3, we are seeing in the new simple homes built, moon and star symbolism, but just no detail on exactly what they mean, or any fleshing out of this.

[Feanoro]

Sadly, I'm sure the only development that will happen is another kick in the balls from whatever Horde race needs to look tough at the moment.