[PTR] Alliance and Horde Darkshore questline SPOILERS

[derpkitteh]

So you would consider just wiping out the people you were trying to protect your entire life who were also abandoned by their goddess, because you are mad at that goddess for not protecting those people, and fight for the person who killed both you and your people. Pretty crazy.

i, as my normal self, wouldn't.

with dark magic compelling me to think more darkly? to feel hateful and vengeful in a different way? yeah, i could see it happening.

you aren't the same you when you died, the magic darkens your personality. there's people irl that snap and kill people after getting dumped, and that's just their own mental state break. now add a dark magic causing compulsions into the mix, some of them are bound to do some bad shit.

[Syegfryed]

If they are using that shit of how new forsakens are easily manipulated thats fine, if they continue serving sylvanas after this passes then its mental control or bullshit

ITs like saying sylvanas would help arthas without the LK control

[Every Pwny]

i, as my normal self, wouldn't.

with dark magic compelling me to think more darkly? to feel hateful and vengeful in a different way? yeah, i could see it happening.

you aren't the same you when you died, the magic darkens your personality. there's people irl that snap and kill people after getting dumped, and that's just their own mental state break. now add a dark magic causing compulsions into the mix, some of them are bound to do some bad shit.

If you were being more vengeful, you would be more angry at Sylvanas for killing you and your people, not want to wipe out your people.

[Feanoro]

This is from Wowpedia, and frankly, I don't know how much of it is canon, but I do think it make a bit of sense.

Upon first being raised, a Forsaken does not have free will. It takes more concentrated magic to release an undead's mind. Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them.

Sira and Delaryn are freshly risen, and both died in combat, so it makes sense they enter a "Violent, frenzied state", and Delaryn staring at her hand after the battle is over feels like a "omg what have I done" feeling to me.

I sure hope this is the reason, we don't need to tag Sylvanas with more #EVIL tbh.

Amazing how the second bold text is used as a battering ram when the mind control topic comes up, yet we somehow normally get so much as a hint of the first bold text. It's almost like that would make someone look bad!

[Kellorion]

Sira and Delaryn should have also taken on the Night Warrior, an elite guard of Nelf Sentinels and Wardens. Maybe have Sylvanas kill and rezz Maiev and Delaryn. But Delaryn escapes and gets back to Tyrande.

[derpkitteh]

If you were being more vengeful, you would be more angry at Sylvanas for killing you and your people, not want to wipe out your people.

you're not understanding that THE MAGIC IN THEM WARPS THEIR DESIRES AND THINKING. THEIR WORLDVIEW BECOMES WARPED.

where they feel the desire to protect these people in life, the hatreds and betrayals they feel upon death get focused on. their god didn't come, they feel betrayed, they feel it was all a lie, the magic fixates on it, hatred comes, and then that vengeance you feel turns on the people that you think lied to you, that you think forsook you.

THEY'RE NOT THINKING IN THE SAME WAY THEY WERE BEFORE THEY DIED.

[Deleted]

Delaryn at least gives the vibe from the Azsuna ghost-NPC that you have to free for... the enchantment quest? I think?. The one where you learn the Hidden Satyr thing. She lost faith and hope and decided to join Azshara and the Legion, but after having been turned into a satyr she was slain and it gained her nothing.
She actually wanted to use the power the Legion would grant her to help her people out and, as usual, didn't think things through really. But you free her from the Legion. Not from Undeath, as she still is a ghost afterwards, as all Nightelves in Azsuna are, but at least she's a happy ghost afterwards.

Maybe Delaryn is not yet completely decided and torn between her former duty and her hatred. Maybe that's why she is not looking at the Horde player directly.

As for Sira... I just don't know. I can understand how she'd be disappointed with Tyrande and even Elune, when they both always come for Malfurion but she just gets left behind and noone comes for her. And I can somehow understand how her fury would carry over to Maiev, even though I find that a little over the top. I mean, she was the second in command for the Wardens and if that was such a burden on her... why was she a Warden anyway? Her dialogue with Maiev for later (I guess for the warfront) seems whiny and nothing more. And as for her to join the Forsaken... I don't buy it. Go after Tyrande or Maiev themselves? yea. But actually fight for the Forsaken? wtf? She was stationed in Azsuna, if she wants to join some undead elves, why not go there after she's done with her revenge on the other two?

[Every Pwny]

you're not understanding that THE MAGIC IN THEM WARPS THEIR DESIRES AND THINKING. THEIR WORLDVIEW BECOMES WARPED.

where they feel the desire to protect these people in life, the hatreds and betrayals they feel upon death get focused on. their god didn't come, they feel betrayed, they feel it was all a lie, the magic fixates on it, hatred comes, and then that vengeance you feel turns on the people that you think lied to you, that you think forsook you.

THEY'RE NOT THINKING IN THE SAME WAY THEY WERE BEFORE THEY DIED.

If they are mind controlled that's fine, doing it out of their own free will is not fine.

[Whitedragon]

...Then what in the literal flying fuck was the whole point of freeing Odyn then?!

Happy thoughts and phat lootz? so sadly to answer your question honestly not much...

[derpkitteh]

If they are mind controlled that's fine, doing it out of their own free will is not fine.

it's not mind control.

it's more akin to sudden unset of a psychological disorder.

[Every Pwny]

it's not mind control.

it's more akin to sudden unset of a psychological disorder.

It absolutely is mind control otherwise they wouldn't be working for the person who killed them and their people, they would be trying to kill them.

[Toho]

it's not mind control.

it's more akin to sudden unset of a psychological disorder.

That is pure head canon.
With absolutely zero evidence or even past lore to point to.

you're not understanding that THE MAGIC IN THEM WARPS THEIR DESIRES AND THINKING. THEIR WORLDVIEW BECOMES WARPED.

where they feel the desire to protect these people in life, the hatreds and betrayals they feel upon death get focused on. their god didn't come, they feel betrayed, they feel it was all a lie, the magic fixates on it, hatred comes, and then that vengeance you feel turns on the people that you think lied to you, that you think forsook you.

THEY'RE NOT THINKING IN THE SAME WAY THEY WERE BEFORE THEY DIED.

So why did Sylvanas not willingly join Arthas?

[derpkitteh]

It absolutely is mind control otherwise they wouldn't be working for the person who killed them and their people.

if you can't fucking read what i just goddamned explained to you, whatever.

[Mixxy]

"Sylvanas murdered me and my people but you had the NERVE to fail in your attempts to stop her! So I'm siding with Sylvanas now. She's clearly the lesser of two evils."

Between this fucking nonsense, Derek Proudmoore's body being in PRISTINE condition despite being incinerated and left at the bottom of the goddamn ocean for decades, and Blizzard literally just choosing to pretend that the Vindicaar didn't exist because it would've been inconvenient for the 'story' they decided they wanted to tell (and being fucking PROUD of doing so)... it's clear that Blizzard just doesn't give a crap about their story anymore.

They just decide they want a specific end-point and to hell with the story or characters they need to fuck up in order to get there.



These hacks love to throw the "oh it's just a story beat!" defence out there, but it doesn't matter how cool you think the ending is if everything before that point is disconnected, confused, garbage with no characterisation or continuity.

[Deleted]

Also, I don't think brainwashing is too far fetched with being raised as undead. All we could ever read about it says it's a horrible ordeal you wouldn't wish upon your greatest enemies. So yea... your death was horrible, your last thoughts were horrible and afterwards you get tortured and yanked back into the horrible existence you just cursed with your dying breath by the ones who did all this to you. Stockholm syndrome material right there.

[Mixxy]

if i have dark necromantic energy surging through my body tethering my soul to my rotten corpse, darkening every emotion i feel as i think about how my whole culture was basically a lie for thousands of years of life?

yeah, maybe.

Except anger towards the one person solely responsible for your death, I guess?

with dark magic compelling me to think more darkly? to feel hateful and vengeful in a different way?

Again, "to feel hateful and vengeful" towards everyone except the single person who murdered you and your people, then forced you into undead servitude.

Sylvanas is literally a walking target for those feelings. Yet she seems to be basically the only person that it's never aimed at. Ain't that heckin' convenient.

- - - Updated - - -

you're not understanding that THE MAGIC IN THEM WARPS THEIR DESIRES AND THINKING. THEIR WORLDVIEW BECOMES WARPED.

where they feel the desire to protect these people in life, the hatreds and betrayals they feel upon death get focused on. their god didn't come, they feel betrayed, they feel it was all a lie, the magic fixates on it, hatred comes, and then that vengeance you feel turns on the people that you think lied to you, that you think forsook you.

THEY'RE NOT THINKING IN THE SAME WAY THEY WERE BEFORE THEY DIED.

And all of that, somehow, equates to "Also completely forgive the monster that killed you and your loved ones."

SUCH NEGATIVE EMOTIONS.

[Deleted]

Wait, so you basically kill both of them and raise them... then they join you?

What kind of horrible story-writing is that?
Especially the one you just killed would probably lunge out at you as soon she's raised...
Except if there's some kind of lich-king mojo going on; which to be honest has to be for the horde to follow sylvanas.

[Every Pwny]

if you can't fucking read what i just goddamned explained to you, whatever.

That's not really the problem, you framed it in a way to say she would turn on and want to kill all her people she was trying to protect because she was mad at her goddess for not protecting the people, so she works for the person who killed her and her people because of "not mind control". You are framing it pretty stupidly, it obviously has nothing to do with her own will that she would want to do that, so it's obviously mind control, not some just psychological disorder.

[Felixon]

Blizzard's writing these days - "We retconned the retcon,because the retcon before the previous one didn't make much sense". First they pull out of nowhere Derek Proudmoore (who should've been a skeleton in the best case scenario) and raise him as undead (cause these days,the power of Sylvanas is on par with Bolvar,DOH!") and now this night elf forsaken abomination writing. Seriously, if you thought,that WoD time travelling crap was bad,this is so freakin dumb I even don't know what to say.

And the cheap trope of Delaryn - wah,you see, Arthas killed me,while I was protecting my people,now I act like Arthas and kill you,because the sole purpose for existence of undead is to hate the living." And so,Delaryn becomes the new Sylvanas and Sylvanas becomes the champion of the LK.

[Mixxy]

That's not really the problem, you framed it in a way to say she would turn on and want to kill all her people she was trying to protect because she was mad at her goddess for not protecting the people, so she works for the person who killed her and her people because of "not mind control". You are framing it pretty stupidly, it obviously has nothing to do with her own will that she would want to do that, so it's obviously mind control, not some just psychological disorder.

This right here.
If Sylvanas is raising her Forsaken in just such a way that their wants and desires are twisted to a point where they juuuust so happen to line up with Sylvanas' own goals, then that's mind control.

Not all mind control leaves you a shambling zombie or a chanting zealot. Some mind control leaves you completely aware and "independent" but compelled to follow the wishes of their master. Like Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas, for example.