Why do people have a problem with titanforging?

[Nerovar]

Yes, there is randomness in loot. Always has been always will be. But the degree of a thing is integral to the function of the thing. It's the same difference as cutting your fingernails off and cutting your fingers off.

In addition to what i said originally, it also throws balancing out of whack. Without titan/warforging content can be created for a set ilvl. If Normal drops ilvl 300, heroics can be tuned for ilvl 300. and so on up the chain. But when normal drops ilvl 300-315 (we'll just use 15 as a base titan forging can go much higher, though it is also much rarer). That means that heroics are either undertuned for ilvl 315 or overtuned for ilvl 300. Again, so on up the chain. Now this might not seem like much, but even casual raiders understand and know how much a difference of even 5 ilvls raid-wide can make. This means that the more tightly tuned a encounter is the more harmful titan/warforging is. This is not anecdotal. We've seen it very heavily in legion, and BFA as 2 prime examples.

It's just a bad system. It has nothing to do with mythic raiding vs LFR raiders or raiders vs M+ or any type of player vs any other type of player. It's bad for the game on multiple levels not just progression raiding, but really every aspect of the game is affected by it to a obscene degree.

Reading this, I get the feeling that in the near future Blizzard will make all content scale within a 40 ilvl range just to "fix" their broken gear progression.

[Deleted]

Friends of mine do a warfront and get titanforged 395 gear while I kill mythic raid bosses and get 385 gear. I don't care that I have better gear overall. People doing the easiest content shouldn't have access to the best gear.

[Onikaroshi]

It's really the least of BfA's problems, and not something to quit over. But case in point about WHY TF is bad for the game (WF is mostly ok), Unstable Arcanocrystal (and any similar trinket or in some cases, tier). So many classes wanted this thing at a high ilvl, without TF it would have died out like all the rest of old gear, but nope... Mr. J'im was relevant 100% of the expansion and it felt like shit every time you killed him, not matter what you got.

There's no fun in the slot machines.

[Aydinx2]

Right now you can't make any goals as far as gearing goes.

While this isn't entirely true (you can still target items), the truth is even worse.
If I wanted to get the haste staff from Shrine of the Storm at my currently gear level, I would have to farm Mythic+ at the highest possible keystone while hoping for it to drop at a good forged itemlevel. This is annoying because:

1. It forces me into a game-mode that only rewards a single item from the entire loot pool, making the chances of the item slim.
2. If it does drop it needs to titanforge to a very high itemlevel.

That doesn't sound too bad, but step 1 is already incredible unlikely to happen, even if you're lucky enough to be able to run multiple +10 keystones.
Congrats, you now have a single item that you wanted. Now get the other 13.

Now you wonder "why not settle for a weaker version?". Because a better version exists, and when I hit a wall of how strong my character can get, I'd like that to be due to my own skill, and not because some dice won't roll in my favour.

So yeah, you can still say "I want that item" and go for it, but there's a lot more RNG involved and it takes way longer.

[slalmon]

Because, with enough "luck", you can literally run a heroic dungeon and get better gear then a mythic raider.

LOL no you can't...

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

While this isn't entirely true (you can still target items), the truth is even worse.
If I wanted to get the haste staff from Shrine of the Storm at my currently gear level, I would have to farm Mythic+ at the highest possible keystone while hoping for it to drop at a good forged itemlevel. This is annoying because:

1. It forces me into a game-mode that only rewards a single item from the entire loot pool, making the chances of the item slim.
2. If it does drop it needs to titanforge to a very high itemlevel.

That doesn't sound too bad, but step 1 is already incredible unlikely to happen, even if you're lucky enough to be able to run multiple +10 keystones.
Congrats, you now have a single item that you wanted. Now get the other 13.

Now you wonder "why not settle for a weaker version?". Because a better version exists, and when I hit a wall of how strong my character can get, I'd like that to be due to my own skill, and not because some dice won't roll in my favour.

So yeah, you can still say "I want that item" and go for it, but there's a lot more RNG involved and it takes way longer.

I mean if you refuse to equip it unless it's literally the best possible version I don't think that's the dev's fault. That's a user issue.

[Aydinx2]

LFR might be supereasy, but people who go in there and get gear are doing something, and the gear in there isn't great, and the superupgrades are superrare. No LFR raider will ever come close to a mythic raider. This is really not an issue.

The issue is that regardless of how many people do get the superupgrades, it is possible, meaning normal raiders are forced to do LFR if they care about gear (hint: every WoW player, save maybe RPérs and pet battlers, care about gear). And LFR only raiders have a chance of being rewarded with a better item than Normal even though they put in much less effort (no creating raid group, low tactics/difficulty, sometimes just be afk).

[IceMan1763]

I'm generally okay with warforging. The only way to insure you get tons of warforged pieces is to play a lot (i.e. lots of chances to forge).

I think the reason people dislike the system as a whole is the problem of agency. If you haven't read it yet, check out this excellent post on WOW reddit about why agency is important and how Blizzard has been steadily removing it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...zerite_traits/

There is no agency in the titanforging/warforging system other than running the content so many times that you eventually get lucky enough to get the item. On the opposite end, there is also no agency when someone kills the boss the first time and gets lucky enough to roll a max TF piece. In Legion, with a WF/TF range MUCH higher, random secondary stats, and random get slots, the problem was actually FAR worse. However, Legion had good content backing up the shitty ass direction the dev team took the loot systems. BFA does not have that benefit, so even a slightly improved version of the Legion loot system is not really appealing to people.

Now, you could add some agency into this system by providing some type of way for players to take a base piece and "level it up" to a TF piece. This is the same type of strategy that was praised by the vast majority of the community in WOTLK. The loot table was RNG (although all the stats/get slots/etc. were fixed), but there were appealing pieces of gear you could get by using valor or justice points, which you were guaranteed to get. WOW has always had RNG loot, we know that white knight fanbois, but the level of RNG balanced against systems that counter with guaranteed agency IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT AND CANNOT BE IGNORED.

The dev team has perverted the loot system into one infested with RNG while removing most of the counter "agency based" systems that we had when the game was at its height. I just don't think going in this direction has made the game better or more enjoyable in any way from my personal view point.

[Nnyco]

people blame their bad skill on titanforge because they cant raid mythic to get easy 385+

[slalmon]

Friends of mine do a warfront and get titanforged 395 gear while I kill mythic raid bosses and get 385 gear. I don't care that I have better gear overall. People doing the easiest content shouldn't have access to the best gear.

Or maybe you care way, way to much about the gear you get. So when your "friend" gets a nice sweet upgrade they will probably use until the next expansion instead of being excited for them you are salty.

Be honest, if you are running Mythic you will be in full 385+ and that 385+ can still titanforge, as you well know. When a casual like me will likely be using that sweet titanforge 5 times longer than you will be using that Mythic gear.

They mean different things to different people.... amazing how that works. Winning the lotto is fun, but you are a degenerate gambler in this scenario so your outlook on things is different.

[Deleted]

Why don't you just stop chasing after TF gear then. You know it's pointless. Just set your goal to get BiS without TF.

You can't get BiS if it is obviously base item level and no gem, it's nothing. With every item dropped you were getting closer to that bis accomplishment.. now.. with every base item level drop you feel meh. I would rather see them add yet another difficulty and let us have our max item levels with sockets.

[Aydinx2]

I mean if you refuse to equip it unless it's literally the best possible version I don't think that's the dev's fault. That's a user issue.

I never said anything about refusing to equip items? That wasn't what I ment with "why not settle for a weaker version?". Ofcourse you equip the best gear you have at the moment, but if it isn't the best version of that item I will want to go for the best version.

My characters power should be limited by the amount of time and effort I put into it, not random dice rolls. The only exception to this are the normal item drop rolls, which are neccesary because otherwise they would need to make an enemy per every item.

[Prime92]

People keep saying it's bad but I don't get why it is. I like it when I get a good upgrade.

Look at it the other way around: I hate it when I don't get an upgrade, despite running the same instance/killing the same boss for XXth time, while others get it on 1st/2nd, etc. Add to that the factor that there's some RNG bullshit like weekly chest, where people for little effort either get an amazing item (atm. 395 TF weapon for example) or fuck around with same cloak drop for weeks or months. There are people running with multiple titanforged items, there are people who loot titanforged gear literally all the time, while for example I looted 3 TFs +15 since launch despite clearing nm+hc raids weekly, progressing through Mythic, doing many dozens of high m+ keys, doing RBG's, etc. Who-the-fuck-knows why world bosses drop BiS trinkets, I got none so far -same thing as with arcanocrystal in Legion, while random people get these titanforged for LITERALLY NO EFFORT and those things are more potent than anything you can get from Mythic level Uldir. It's unfair, it's retarded, it's flawed in every way possible.
It's no longer "whoopie, I got and upgrade" but "fuck this, again basic ilvl shit".

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Are you ever really BiS? Even if you are, you're only gonna be for a short time until the next raid releases.

- - - Updated - - -



Maybe one piece but that barely makes a difference.

Getting your actual BiS list was normal if you were in a guild that cleared all content at a decent pace. In MoP this became a lot harder, with the random 6+ iLvl WFing. When the WoD prepatch hit, I think I missed two items for having actual BiS back in SoO. In WoD it became even more difficult with both 6+ iLvl WFing and random sockets.

With Legion/BFA TFing, getting your actual BiS gear is obviously not realistic, and that's not a good thing.


The main argument, is however that it "devalues" any non TFed gear. Getting your baseline Mythic iLvl BiS trinket feels bad atm, but you know that it could have been better if it TFed. Getting your Mythic BiS trinket should never feel bad, but it does atm, and that's a problem.

I still think WotLK/Cata had the perfect lootsystem, but Blizz had to fix something that wasn't broken in the first place.

[tehdef]

Holy fuck the amount of entitlement in this thread is giving me cancer.

[Rainyhealz]

Holy fuck the amount of entitlement in this thread is giving me cancer.

Probably another lfr hero

[tehdef]

I think the reason people dislike the system as a whole is the problem of agency. If you haven't read it yet, check out this excellent post on WOW reddit about why agency is important and how Blizzard has been steadily removing it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...zerite_traits/

There is no agency in the titanforging/warforging system other than running the content so many times that you eventually get lucky enough to get the item. On the opposite end, there is also no agency when someone kills the boss the first time and gets lucky enough to roll a max TF piece. In Legion, with a WF/TF range MUCH higher, random secondary stats, and random get slots, the problem was actually FAR worse. However, Legion had good content backing up the shitty ass direction the dev team took the loot systems. BFA does not have that benefit, so even a slightly improved version of the Legion loot system is not really appealing to people.

Now, you could add some agency into this system by providing some type of way for players to take a base piece and "level it up" to a TF piece. This is the same type of strategy that was praised by the vast majority of the community in WOTLK. The loot table was RNG (although all the stats/get slots/etc. were fixed), but there were appealing pieces of gear you could get by using valor or justice points, which you where guaranteed to get. WOW has always had RNG loot, we know that white knight fanbois, but the level of RNG balanced against systems that counter with guaranteed agency IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT AND CANNOT BE IGNORED.

The dev team has perverted the loot system into one infested with RNG while removing most of the counter "agency based" systems that we had when the game was at its height. I just don't think going in this direction has made the game better or more enjoyable in any way from my personal view point.

This whole agency bullshit is only valid you base your enjoyment on ONLY getting upgraded items.

The TF system was NEVER meant to be an entitlement. It was meant to be a bonus. But the majority of the negative shits here can't get past their own self-loathing to see that the system is fine, and they are just generally unhappy, and never fulfilled.

[Aydinx2]

Or maybe you care way, way to much about the gear you get. So when your "friend" gets a nice sweet upgrade they will probably use until the next expansion instead of being excited for them you are salty.

Be honest, if you are running Mythic you will be in full 385+ and that 385+ can still titanforge as you well know when a casual like me will likely be using that sweet titanforge 5 times longer than you will be using that Mythic gear.

They mean different things to different people.... amazing how that works.

No need to be degrading just because you disagree with someone.
More difficult content should, objectively, award more difficult rewards. It's a basic concept in game design.

[kaintk]

ok. good for you. if you really wanted to know just read the thousand posts about it or the million youtube vids.

" read all the whiner troll post about it " there, i repaired it, titan forge is fine, without it the game would have no surprise and be so boring (more boring because bfa is boring;p)

[tehdef]

Yes but there are more people unhappy than happy. Read the forum. Maybe you can count on your fingers to figure out how many side with you lol

BLHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHA....

Do you think MMOC is the fucking majority?

It's not.

The majority of the player base doesn't even go to forums. You are in an extreme minority. The 6 pages here are a fucking echo chamber. Same goes for general for forums.