Ret could use a buff (PVE)

[Groven4]

I just want my legion divine storm back pls that was the best thing i ever see in this game like divine purpose proc and divine storm pow that was heaven to watch oh i missed that trait...

I'll take WoTLK ret back honestly. I enjoyed the gameplay a lot with Exo and HW. As long as the 1 button cast sequence stays broken.

[Wrecktangle]

Gameplay changes I'd love to see:

Baseline Updates

• Wake of Ashes (generates 3 holy power not 5, 1m cd), Consecrate (existing), and Hammer of Wrath (existing) Baseline

Talents

Level 15

• Zeal - Zeal itself is fine, but also add auto attacks reduce the cooldown of Wake of Ashes. That would keep it the simple option in the tier
• Righteous Vengeance - needs to affect Divine Storm. Flat out. No excuses
• Execution Sentence - should remove Holy Power cost

Level 30

• Fires of Justice - Keep the same - maybe also have it become holy damage so it scales off mastery and does a little more damage (again simple tier)
• Blade of Wrath - Keep normal effects, but also bake Expurgation into it and have it function like the old Righteous Venegance from WotLK where you could roll the DoT effect with back to back crits.
• Hammer of Wrath - this talent removes the ability to use HoW during wings/execute, in exchange for allowing it to be used anytime with no cd when you land a critical ability (cannot proc off itself).

Level 60

• Divine Judgment (changed to Final Verdict) - Your TV becomes Final Verdict (think WoD, so increased damage and range) and boosts the damage of the next DS by x% (making you alternate finishers) in ST/cleave
• Consecration - Make talenting into it transform Consecration into kind of like the Liadrin Ring effect and have it follow you like the prot talent. This way it becomes a buff that generates steady Holy Power speeding up the rotation while also dealing passive AOE damage.
• Wake of Ashes - buffs WoA to generate 5 HP and reduces the CD to 45s baseline.

Level 100

• DP - Buff % chance back to 25%.
• Crusade - maybe change it so that it has a lower duration, but every Holy Power spent during increases duration.
• Inquisition - I suppose it's fine.

In summary my goals were to try and bring a few buttons back baseline and use talents to improve them. I wanted to try and keep a simple but effective option in every tier, one that asks you manage something, and another that changes gameplay in a decent way. I also tried to build in scalars based off secondaries like crit and mastery. Lastly I wanted to try and build in some synergy between talents like the WoA build where you can have a short CD WoA or a build based off procs if you like that, etc. Obviously needs to be tuned appropriately, just wanted to get concepts out there.

Thoughts?

[steenkie]

Gameplay changes I'd love to see:

Baseline Updates

• Wake of Ashes, Consecrate, and Hammer of Wrath, Execution Sentence- Baseline

Talents

Level 15

• Zeal - Speeds up next 3 auto attacks, changes auto attacks to holy
• Final Verdict -
• Double Execution - ES is now duplicated on 1 additional target

Level 30

• Fires of Justice - Crusader Strike is now holy and hits for 15% additional damage. Scales off Mastery.
• Blade of Wrath - No Change
• Hammer of Vengence - Replaces HoW. HoV can be used during wings and on enemies under 45%.

Level 60

• Divine Judgment - Judgment now hits all targets within 8 yards of target.
• Consecration Aura - Consecration now follows player and generates 2 HP.
• Wake of Ashes - HP spent to reduce the CD of Wake by 1s per HP spent

Level 100

• DP - Buff % chance back to 25%.
• Crusade - CD changed to 1m. Stacks to 15.
• Inquisition - No HP cost.

Thoughts?

Made some changes to your suggestions. My proposed changes should increase ST, 2-target cleave, and AoE. In addition, there will be more HP generating abilities off cooldown reducing or eliminating downtime. There should always be a generator available. Room for tweaking.

[Titans]

Remove divine judgment and replace it with final verdict. Remove crusade and replace it with sanctified wrath (shorter HoW cd during wings, wings lasts 10 secs longer). Would love to see some talent choice and synergy make a return, and those were two favourites.

[ipoststuff]

Gameplay changes I'd love to see:

Baseline Updates

• Wake of Ashes (generates 3 holy power not 5, 1m cd), Consecrate (existing), and Hammer of Wrath (existing) Baseline

Talents

Level 15

• Zeal - Zeal itself is fine, but also add auto attacks reduce the cooldown of Wake of Ashes. That would keep it the simple option in the tier
• Righteous Vengeance - needs to affect Divine Storm. Flat out. No excuses
• Execution Sentence - should remove Holy Power cost

Level 30

• Fires of Justice - Keep the same - maybe also have it become holy damage so it scales off mastery and does a little more damage (again simple tier)
• Blade of Wrath - Keep normal effects, but also bake Expurgation into it and have it function like the old Righteous Venegance from WotLK where you could roll the DoT effect with back to back crits.
• Hammer of Wrath - this talent removes the ability to use HoW during wings/execute, in exchange for allowing it to be used anytime with no cd when you land a critical ability (cannot proc off itself).

Level 60

• Divine Judgment (changed to Final Verdict) - Your TV becomes Final Verdict (think WoD, so increased damage and range) and boosts the damage of the next DS by x% (making you alternate finishers) in ST/cleave
• Consecration - Make talenting into it transform Consecration into kind of like the Liadrin Ring effect and have it follow you like the prot talent. This way it becomes a buff that generates steady Holy Power speeding up the rotation while also dealing passive AOE damage.
• Wake of Ashes - buffs WoA to generate 5 HP and reduces the CD to 45s baseline.

Level 100

• DP - Buff % chance back to 25%.
• Crusade - maybe change it so that it has a lower duration, but every Holy Power spent during increases duration.
• Inquisition - I suppose it's fine.

In summary my goals were to try and bring a few buttons back baseline and use talents to improve them. I wanted to try and keep a simple but effective option in every tier, one that asks you manage something, and another that changes gameplay in a decent way. I also tried to build in scalars based off secondaries like crit and mastery. Lastly I wanted to try and build in some synergy between talents like the WoA build where you can have a short CD WoA or a build based off procs if you like that, etc. Obviously needs to be tuned appropriately, just wanted to get concepts out there.

Thoughts?

Please be careful when asking for stuff to be baseline. Conescration is useless in PvP and hammer of wrath makes us too much dependent on Avenging Wrath that our DPS outside of it becomes a lot less threatening. I'd hate that we got buffed in the form of getting one of those abilities as baseline instead of something more useful. I'm ok with baseline WoA but the talent you suggested seems laking considering it's the same as live but it's not a new ability just buffing a baseline.

[Titans]

[QUOTE=ipoststuff;50398684]Please be careful when asking for stuff to be baseline. QUOTE]

Eh, I think asking for more baseline isn't asking for a buff though, it's just asking for more engaging gameplay

[Wrecktangle]

Please be careful when asking for stuff to be baseline. Conescration is useless in PvP and hammer of wrath makes us too much dependent on Avenging Wrath that our DPS outside of it becomes a lot less threatening. I'd hate that we got buffed in the form of getting one of those abilities as baseline instead of something more useful. I'm ok with baseline WoA but the talent you suggested seems laking considering it's the same as live but it's not a new ability just buffing a baseline.

You're thinking so one dimensionally though.

Consecration is useless in PVP sure. Except I could probably come up with 3-4 different PVP talents that make it instantly viable or even strong. The talented version would be fine in PVP.

Sure having anemic damage outside of wings sucks, but no if you're PVPing with Ret that's a live thing already.

Let me ask you then - what would you rather have when you say you'd hate to get something baseline instead of something "more useful". Try to keep in mind I'm only a lowly ~1850 ret (accomplished PVE'er tho).

[Filfa]

Couldn't agree more, but the encounters this tier also don't lend as well to ret as other specs.

Few examples, Fetid stack range, zul stack rogues and mages, mythrax stack multi dot classes and dk, ghuun why even consider a ret over a warrior.

I won't play Ret next tier unless we see significant changes, our abilities with the exception of TV hit like a wet noodle. TBH, I would just rather have seals back and replace Crusade with Empowered Seals on the level 100 tier

[Rhade1337]

Divine purpose was never 25% it was 20%.

[Lumineus]

Never? It was 25% for all of WoD, they've been chipping away at it for some time. You can't compare it to prior expansions because the effect was different. If it still proced from generators like it did in Cata and Mists, 15% might still be good. The main reason it's "viable" now is how gutted Crusade is, not that Inquisition is much better either. Our whole 100 tier is weaksauce.

[General Guderian]

It is entirely justified to blame Blizzard when a class gets the reputation for being bad, and they want to address these bad reputations. However, community perspective is often increased when players of a class constantly speak negatively of themselves.

Ret ist fine confirmed

[PaladinBash]

Ret ist fine confirmed

I knew there'd never be a single Blizzcon where someone doesn't take a snipe at Ret. When I read that this morning I knew EXACTLY who they were talking about.

[Kalisandra]

I just want my legion divine storm back pls that was the best thing i ever see in this game like divine purpose proc and divine storm pow that was heaven to watch oh i missed that trait...

Nah. The enhanced Divine Storm from WoD was the bomb - big area, lots of damage, and you wanted to weave it in with TV, making the rotation more interesting. Throw out Crusader and put that in, suitably tuned, instead.

[EternalBany]

Do you think they will ever change the sound of our main abilities?

they sound so wimpy and out of place, i loved the old exorcism sound
our main abilitiy templars verdict has the sound-file of rogues`s disarm, ridiculous

[Teleros]

Well we did fine w/o Templar's Verdict in WOTLK x'D

<__< i wonder whyyyyy

I'll take WoTLK ret back honestly. I enjoyed the gameplay a lot with Exo and HW. As long as the 1 button cast sequence stays broken.

Ditto. Still salty over the loss of Seal of Blood TBH. The T10 2pc (40% chance on AA to reset CD of Divine Storm) was also great though.

[Celebhil]

in "light" of the new animations. it gave me the idea of making consecration baseline, but if you talent for it in the current "aoe" line, standing in consecration enhances your divine storm to do more damage and/or proc our legion "divine hammer"

animation wise; revamp divine storm to be more reminiscent of the old Wotlk look: runic pattern on the ground and hammer spin...ok, but weave in crackling thunder or swirls light to make it look more explosive.

[Nfinitii]

I c a lot of ppl want HoW baseline. I personally don’t, but if they did I’d want it to work like sudden death. Remove it from usable w/ wings. I felt this made wings too strong and us too weak outside of wings.

I’d like to c some changes to ret mobility. Remove divine steed, and give passive 15% run speed and pursuit of justice back or something like tyrael sword throw/teleport thing would be sweet. If blizzard really wanted to keep divine steed I think it’s needs 2 charges and lower cd baseline. And change the talent to the d3 rune that lets u drag mobs behind u during its duration.

Aoe needs some love. Conc baseline, divine hammer baseline and let it share a cd w/ blade. Maybe a talent that lets crusader strike cleave when ur standing in conc.

I’d like one more ability for single target rotation. Maybe HoW w/ sudden death proc baseline? Exorcism? Maybe just a rotation revamp.

[FeinHammer]

Such a niche spec

[Deleted]

Gameplay changes I'd love to see:

Baseline Updates

• Wake of Ashes (generates 3 holy power not 5, 1m cd), Consecrate (existing), and Hammer of Wrath (existing) Baseline

Talents

Level 15

• Zeal - Zeal itself is fine, but also add auto attacks reduce the cooldown of Wake of Ashes. That would keep it the simple option in the tier
• Righteous Vengeance - needs to affect Divine Storm. Flat out. No excuses
• Execution Sentence - should remove Holy Power cost

Level 30

• Fires of Justice - Keep the same - maybe also have it become holy damage so it scales off mastery and does a little more damage (again simple tier)
• Blade of Wrath - Keep normal effects, but also bake Expurgation into it and have it function like the old Righteous Venegance from WotLK where you could roll the DoT effect with back to back crits.
• Hammer of Wrath - this talent removes the ability to use HoW during wings/execute, in exchange for allowing it to be used anytime with no cd when you land a critical ability (cannot proc off itself).

Level 60

• Divine Judgment (changed to Final Verdict) - Your TV becomes Final Verdict (think WoD, so increased damage and range) and boosts the damage of the next DS by x% (making you alternate finishers) in ST/cleave
• Consecration - Make talenting into it transform Consecration into kind of like the Liadrin Ring effect and have it follow you like the prot talent. This way it becomes a buff that generates steady Holy Power speeding up the rotation while also dealing passive AOE damage.
• Wake of Ashes - buffs WoA to generate 5 HP and reduces the CD to 45s baseline.

Level 100

• DP - Buff % chance back to 25%.
• Crusade - maybe change it so that it has a lower duration, but every Holy Power spent during increases duration.
• Inquisition - I suppose it's fine.

In summary my goals were to try and bring a few buttons back baseline and use talents to improve them. I wanted to try and keep a simple but effective option in every tier, one that asks you manage something, and another that changes gameplay in a decent way. I also tried to build in scalars based off secondaries like crit and mastery. Lastly I wanted to try and build in some synergy between talents like the WoA build where you can have a short CD WoA or a build based off procs if you like that, etc. Obviously needs to be tuned appropriately, just wanted to get concepts out there.

Thoughts?

Siiigh... you people don't know what you are saying when you ask for consecration baseline. That will result in a DS nerf.

Also, why do you want to nerf WoA? Decreasing CD and HP generation. That will reduce your burst as those 5hp are important to get DS's off.

This is all an exageration. What we need is a numbers buff.

But i will make clear that consecration is something I DON'T want. You people will regret it if it happens.

Talent tweaks are welcome though.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you think they will ever change the sound of our main abilities?

they sound so wimpy and out of place, i loved the old exorcism sound
our main abilitiy templars verdict has the sound-file of rogues`s disarm, ridiculous

What the?! Exorcism sounded terrible. A really loud "tchuan". There was pratically no animation aswell. Why do you people like the shitty spells i will never understand. This and consecration are terrible.

Also, you need to recheck what a disarm sounds like. It's a more "chingching" sound. TV is more like 2 knocks on wood "tomtom" like ^^.

[Wrecktangle]

Siiigh... you people don't know what you are saying when you ask for consecration baseline. That will result in a DS nerf.

Also, why do you want to nerf WoA? Increasing CD and HP generation. That will reduce your burst as those 5hp are important to get DS's off.

This is all an exageration. What we need is a numbers buff.

But i will make clear that consecration is something I DON'T want. You people will regret it if it happens.

You're being hyperbolic not me lol. I simply offered some ideas for gameplay mechanisms that I either miss or desire, or believe are underutilized.

It's true that all we NEED is a numbers buff, but it would still be an anemic gameplay experience. If all you care about is being top of the meters I can respect that, but there are some of us who also care about how a class feels or plays. I know I'm not alone in that. Your analysis is also shallow in that you acknowledge we need a numbers buff and that added an additional AOE ability would MANDATE a nerf to an existing one. That's an assumption, not a fact as you state. It's a good guess for sure, especially considering past dev behavior, but I wouldn't state it as a fact.

Consecration by itself is bland and boring, but it is a thematic element to Paladin class fantasy and as such is deserving of some mechanical complexity IMO. I cited a way to add that in. I could come up with a half a dozen more, but I kept it simple.

Regarding WoA - it's because it's insanely strong. I actually love it, it's by and far my favorite ability in the current toolkit, but it hogs up so much budget. It's why I advocate for a slightly different approach to design where talents empower your existing abilities in different fashions. I'm ok with WoA being nerfed if it gives room for other mechanically differentiating functions to exist. I'm ok with WoA being nerfed if I can talent into a better version of it.

Hope this helps you understand my logic a bit better.