I love the fact that he has no problem turning his back on the warchief if he doesnt represent the horde's interests.
He is loyal to the horde, not to the warchief...kinda like a reversed Nazgrim.
I never disliked Saurfang and I don't now. I still like him more than Sylvanas. I can't say I "lost respect" for the character per se, however the last cinematic piece made me despair over the fact that even Saurfang, among other characters before him, have been reduced to someone making Anduin's holy image shining brighter. It definitely looks like a solid step back from the way he was presented at Lordaeron, who despite his issues with Sylvanas he also treated Anduin with contempt and distrust. But now even Saurfang seems to have joined the Manduin's cult.
I have no horse in this race. However, I did like Anduin even less after this cinematic. Sacrificing nelves, too stupid to use his allies resources (Lightforged warriors, spaceship, etc..)
Oh look, you're still being purposefully obtuse and spouting blatant misrepresentations that you've already been corrected on.
Heart of Y'shaarj=Two Blizzard statements saying that Garrosh was in full control of himself
Blood of Mannoroth=Pretty clearly established as corruptive and binds the will of the imbiber to the Burning Legion
I see you're still willing to argue against canon, though.
No... In his eyes Sylvanas is the traitor to everything the Horde is supposed to value...
He has not allied himself with Anduin, Anduin has simply let him go, this is an "enemy of my enemy" situation, like Vol'jin and Varian both working to stop Garrosh in MoP, not a "we're friends now" situation... He is not a pawn or agent of the Alliance, they simply let him go so he could do what he wants to do.
A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don’t have one, you’ll probably never need one again.
Did Saurfang betray me as a player? Nope, I don't like being the bitch of Sylvanas and Nathanos. He is welcome to remove her from the Warchief position. My bigger concern anyway is the question of whom will follow Sylvanas, as we are lacking now any true leader to fill that already existing gap in.
Which is why the blood oath is garbage when the warchief is actively working against the well being of the Horde, and has strangely enough never been referenced again since the rebellion.
The trouble right now is that Sylvanas isn't, she does want the horde to survive. But she is working against the well being of The Horde's principles that they all unite under.
Ah, ok, so turning into a bloodthirsty, world domination craving supervillain and driving your faction to ruin is OK as long as it doesn't involve said corruptive magic selling them into slavery.
Slavery bad.
Death of entire faction on the sacrificial altars of the Old Ones good.
Thank you for clarifying.
For me , Saurfang is a traitor. Death to traitors! Long Live the Queen!
- Truth beneath the faith -
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Ráv/advanced
Unchanged
I don't want Warchief Saurfang, but I'd take any chance to off Sylvanas that I get
This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.
It continued the course his development had already taken, merely confirming that he's somewhat in cahoots with Anduin or at least they agree they have a mutual enemy in Sylvanas. Saurfang refusing to kill enemy leaders, or even stopping to participate in the war in general is very bad for the Horde. This war is fought for survival, neither side can back down at this point, so now is not the time to entertain such notions as honor. Avoid unnecessary cruelty, yes, but don't let it stop you from using effective measures.
Though some effective measures can be dangerous. We deposed Garrosh because he became detrimental to the Horde.
Spoiler:
Last edited by Zuben; 2018-11-05 at 07:33 PM.
Now you see it. Now you don't.
But was where Dalaran?
I'm going by how Sylvanas sold the war to Saurfang. She didn't paint Anduin as the threat. She painted Genn, or the man who Anduin could grow up to be. In her picture, Anduin was a boy king who wouldn't reprimand a subordinate who went off on his own to engage in reckless hostile action.
I don't think the moment Saurfang spared Anduin was some moment he deeply considered. I think we're missing story here, but he probably held back because he has a hard time seeing Anduin as a true threat. Not as a plan, but more as a subconscious thing he thought about later.
Jaina might be a threat. Genn too. The Night Elves he helped slaughter would definitely be out for his blood and want the Horde to pay in full. Anduin, however, is observably too soft. Taking out Sylvanas might not end the war, but Saurfang's priorities aren't on ending the war right now.
The way I see it, it was a fairly slim hope on his part and maybe not even a conscious one. He thinks Anduin can take out Sylvanas, and can tell that all Anduin cares about is Sylvanas.And yet despite all that, he's willing to not only let Anduin live (after judging him to be a threat), but begin a journey to depose Sylvanas with Anduin's blessing.
The war wouldn't actually end with Anduin's death. That'd be ludicrous. He's the type of golden boy who'd become a martyr for the people. The other side doesn't fall just because the leader was taken out. When Anduin Lothar was killed, his men rallied to avenge him.
So, not treating Anduin as a joke and merely judging him as a leader who is too soft and idealistic, I can reasonably expect him to want to take out Sylvanas. I can expect him to avoid damaging the Horde as much as possible. And considering the points Sylvanas used to manipulate Saurfang, I can expect him to lose influence the longer the war continues as it is. That'd be the realistic and cynical option.
If Anduin took out Sylvanas early, the Horde wouldn't be in an entirely different position than it is now. Someone else would have to step up as Warchief, but Anduin would probably declare "Mission Accomplished" and hold back until the Night Elves told him to fuck off and Alliance forces started moving on their own.
That is if Saurfang even considered this all in the moment, and not long, long after realizing that he actually had held back.
Right now, I'm waiting for a short story to drop, but what I see is mostly Anduin plying for sympathy to get what he wants and Saurfang being stripped of any excuse to keep sitting back. That last part being the most important.
It's not inspiring. It doesn't lead me to respect Saurfang. To me, this whole display is nothing short of pitiful, and I can't imagine it's supposed to be anything but pitiful. It's not a character interaction I like, and I might have preferred earlier versions of their conversation that they were thinking of, but he was always going to have a talk with Anduin here. Either with Saurfang initiating it or Anduin doing so.
If Saurfang initiated, as he was originally shown to in the beta, he would have sought and made an actual deal with the Alliance for his release. He'd have shown more initiative, and been less pathetic in that way, but it still wouldn't be a good look for him. In the current form, it's pathetic but there's no real deal. No bargain. Just an open door and an earnest plea.
I don't see it getting much worse than this, which is a rather hopeful perspective to me. Things can only get better.
Loved him before...love him even more now
Take it back Saurfang...reclaim the horde!!!
It confirmed my suspicions about him. So significantly less respect, which is a lot considering I didn’t respect him before this. I’ll be siding with Sylvanas in 8.1 without a doubt. Even if there’s a neutral option.
How you feel about it is irrelevant, it's still canon. How long it's been since it was last referenced is irrelevant, it's still canon until stated otherwise.
Since we were taking a trip down memory lane earlier, do you remember the time when you tried to claim there was no in-game reference to the Blood Oath?
"The Horde's principles" as a concept separate from the ideology of the Warchief is a non-canonical post-hoc rationalization of the events of WCIII. It's not codified, and while "felt" by people, is not binding or obligatory in any real sense.The trouble right now is that Sylvanas isn't, she does want the horde to survive. But she is working against the well being of The Horde's principles that they all unite under.
Yeah, see the slavery and demons bit is the bad part. With regard to "bloodthirsty and world domination craving" they were in a state of total war for dominance prior to that. Wrathion's statements throughout the MoP Legendary questline made it pretty clear that the war was being viewed as such. That this didn't happen rests entirely on the existence of a Horde rebellion.Ah, ok, so turning into a bloodthirsty, world domination craving supervillain and driving your faction to ruin is OK as long as it doesn't involve said corruptive magic selling them into slavery.
Yep. Glad we agree.Slavery bad.
[Citation Needed] for sacrificial altars of the Old OnesDeath of entire faction on the sacrificial altars of the Old Ones good.