Saurfang is not a traitor

[Fullmetal89]

Sylvanas on the other hand is the piece of scum, modern Western illness incarnate (3rd wave feminism run amok, so to speak).

"How to spot a flaseflagging 4channer in one sentence" the post.

Saurfang is a traitor to the Horde. He disobeyed a direct order from the Warchief and refused to kill Malfurion, who was not a civilian and a prime target for the Horde. I'm not saying his actions led to the burning of Teldrasil, Sylvanas has become increasingly unpredictable. All said, she hasn't done anything that previous Warchiefs wouldn't have done, not including the pathetic pacifist Thrall. Sylvanas has been a fairly decent general, regardless of how people feel about her character, Horde has had more gains than losses so far in this new war. Personally, I don't care about the morality of it all. I didn't main a Horde because I wanted to be "the good guy" I mained and Undead Rogue in vanilla because I was an edgy teen. Over the years, the faction has grown on me and I'm die hard Horde. The whole "honor" nonsense is hillariously hypocritical coming from a Saurfang, a character that butchered hundreds of innocent Draenei, fell into the custody of the alliance and betrayed his Warchief. The last truly 'honorable' orc was General Nazgrim. He disagreed with Garrosh but followed him to his death because he was his Warchief.

[Katchii]

For as long as Sylvanas is the leader of the horde he swore to serve, he will be a traitor, as by definition, he is conspiring with the Hordes enemies to get rid of it's leader which is treason, therefore making him a traitor.

If leadership changes, his treason may be re-evaluated. But to the current Horde leadership he is a treasonous traitor.He's doing it for what he believes are the right reasons, but that doesn't change what the definition of "traitor" is.

[LuminaL]

I said it before.

A traitor is someone who trades his/her beliefs/country/life of his people in return for money/power/rank or anything selfish.
saurfang is doing it FOR his faction, he is not trying to help the alliance for the sake of helping alliance.
if anything, saurfang is the opposite of that. he stands on what he believes and is doing it for the Horde and not for the Alliance.

but ofcourse sylvanas people call him a traitor because they rather sylvanas dirty and honorless warfare, mostly because they fail to see the actual picture of a war that wasnt needed in first place.

[Faroth]

if anything, saurfang is the opposite of that. he stands on what he believes and is doing it for the Horde and not for the Alliance.

This is what kind of makes me chuckle at people saying he's a coward.

It's easy to do what you're told and follow orders.
It's hard to do what you think is right no matter what the consequences may be.

People can feel Saurfang is making the wrong choices, but he's no coward. He may not be proving loyal to Sylvanas, but I don't see him as a traitor to the Horde. The Horde is more than solely its Warchief. I think Garrosh didn't see that and I don't think Sylvanas cares to acknowledge it.

[Weeps]

Sylvanas supporters are as blind as Trump supporters. Same MO

[Evilfish]

People can feel Saurfang is making the wrong choices, but he's no coward. He may not be proving loyal to Sylvanas, but I don't see him as a traitor to the Horde. The Horde is more than solely its Warchief. I think Garrosh didn't see that and I don't think Sylvanas cares to acknowledge it.

I think people feel like he betrayed the Horde because he only left his cell when Anduin implied he needs Saurfang's help and not when the Horde player finds him. That was probably the biggest mistake in this entire story. And even if some choose to look past that there's still the issue that it seems like another MoP repeat. You can defend Saurfang all you want right now, I think people already made up their minds.

[Torrasque]

Thrall is a Mok'gora cheater, is generally boring and bland, and bows to Alliance terrorism. Saurfang is a TRAITOR and completely against the Horde's right to freedom to do whatever it wants.

Vote Sylvanas, she's our only real choice for freedom against the Alliance's evil communism/fascism.

[Beerbill Society]

Basically this new generation of players that don't have a clue of the horde stands for or any of its history.

I think you should be required to play "The Foundation of the Durotar" campaign as a requirement to create a horde character.

Unfortunately the vast majority of those casuals never even set foot in Warcraft 3, hopefully War3 Reforged will change that.

Like Saurfang said, I just want my old Horde back.

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Thrall is a Mok'gora cheater, is generally boring and bland, and bows to Alliance terrorism. Saurfang is a TRAITOR and completely against the Horde's right to freedom to do whatever it wants.

Vote Sylvanas, she's our only real choice for freedom against the Alliance's evil communism/fascism.

It was not a Mak'gora, they haven't follow any of the rites, Garrosh had it's honor tainted ever since he entered a Mak'gora with a poisoned weapon.

Don't talk about honor you don't seems to know any.

[Zaktar]

This is what kind of makes me chuckle at people saying he's a coward.

It's easy to do what you're told and follow orders.
It's hard to do what you think is right no matter what the consequences may be.

People can feel Saurfang is making the wrong choices, but he's no coward. He may not be proving loyal to Sylvanas, but I don't see him as a traitor to the Horde. The Horde is more than solely its Warchief. I think Garrosh didn't see that and I don't think Sylvanas cares to acknowledge it.

Definitely not a coward, a quitter. He wanted to lay down and die after the battle for Lorderon, and only didn't thanks to the mercy of Anduin. There is nothing wrong with Saurfang, I empathize with his feelings, but he should not be a leader to the Horde.

Also regardless of his feelings toward Sylvanas, he supported the war enough to fight in it, then spared one of his people's most dangerous enemies due to feeling unhappy with his leader's choices. He knew who and what she was before this latest war started. Mid-war is not the right time to start asking yourself the hard questions about what you believe in and why. He himself seems to have understood that it was not the time for a coup against Sylvanas, perhaps that is why he chose to give up. The Horde needs a leader who will not give up on them. Not Sylvanas, certainly not once this war is concluded, but also not Saurfang.

[dope_danny]

All other orcs are cucks. Saurfang for Warchief 2020

[Tantypops]

He’s a traitor because his first option to replace sylvanas and reclaim his honor was to run to the alliance, he says so himself, sparing anduin so that he can defeat sylvanas. Papa anduin please kill her, for me (

[Beerbill Society]

"How to spot a flaseflagging 4channer in one sentence" the post.

Saurfang is a traitor to the Horde. He disobeyed a direct order from the Warchief and refused to kill Malfurion, who was not a civilian and a prime target for the Horde. I'm not saying his actions led to the burning of Teldrasil, Sylvanas has become increasingly unpredictable. All said, she hasn't done anything that previous Warchiefs wouldn't have done, not including the pathetic pacifist Thrall. Sylvanas has been a fairly decent general, regardless of how people feel about her character, Horde has had more gains than losses so far in this new war. Personally, I don't care about the morality of it all. I didn't main a Horde because I wanted to be "the good guy" I mained and Undead Rogue in vanilla because I was an edgy teen. Over the years, the faction has grown on me and I'm die hard Horde. The whole "honor" nonsense is hillariously hypocritical coming from a Saurfang, a character that butchered hundreds of innocent Draenei, fell into the custody of the alliance and betrayed his Warchief. The last truly 'honorable' orc was General Nazgrim. He disagreed with Garrosh but followed him to his death because he was his Warchief.

See that's the problem with undeads their brains get rotten.

Disobeying a order from a superior is not treason, it's called insubordination. Learn the difference.

Refusing to kill Malfurion was his belief and his sense of honor, orcs live by it and they die by it.

No matter who did burn Teldrassil, genocide of civilians is a warcrime, even in Warcraft. Ask Garrosh.

The same way you enjoy your character fantasy, people created Orcs, Trolls and Tauren to enjoy theirs, for what it looks like Forsaken are not the vast majority of the Horde.

Saurfang is not a hypocrite, he like all other fel taint orcs lived for bloodshed and rage, they know what lurks within, thirsty for blood. That's why they hold honor so dearly it's a concept that allows them to control the beast within, how long would take to the horde turn against each other like the old orc clans did without it? Having your brother in arms betray you?

Orcs are like drug addicted that got cured by still strive to keep clean, it's their whole history, if you don't understand this there is no point to explain it further.

Nazgrim died because he acknowledged that if Garrosh was at fault, he was too. Not because he was blind, but because he knew that he was to blame, he wages the war Garrosh wanted and he became as guilty as his warchief.

"Make sure you know the difference between loyalty and honor. And pray you never have to choose between them."

If you think Nazgrim made his last choice based on loyalty, think again.

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He’s a traitor because his first option to replace sylvanas and reclaim his honor was to run to the alliance, he says so himself, sparing anduin so that he can defeat sylvanas. Papa anduin please kill her, for me (

You are probably trolling but in case you aren't.

He actually tries to kill all the Alliance party in the battle for Lordaeron, he was after his honourable death.

After he is subbed, he became a prisoner. In lost honor, it's clear that the one asking for help is Anduin, he knows the only way to fight the Horde without bloodshed is to have another rebellion.

[Torrasque]

It was not a Mak'gora, they haven't follow any of the rites, Garrosh had it's honor tainted ever since he entered a Mak'gora with a poisoned weapon.

Don't talk about honor you don't seems to know any.

The elements themselves disagree. After Thrall's massive cheating they abandoned him, and rightly so. This is why the player gets Doomhammer.

[seleri]

Doomhammer challenged Blackhand to mak'gora so I wouldn't call him a traitor. The rest are traitors, but, depending on your views and who you support, that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Edit: Didn't see Cairne was in there. He challenged Garrosh to mak'gora so he isn't a traitor either.

[ChairmanKaga]

He is a traitor.

[Beerbill Society]

Now about your Saurfang part:

No Saurfang did not want scalation of War. Sylvannas conviced him otherwise to lure him into her plot.
The killing of Maulfurion would only work on a clean fight, not on a backstab and assassination of a captured leader. That would have the contrary effect of what Saurfang had planned. He says it, the victory would need to be fair and honored to have the effect he wanted. Sylvannas distorted it to cause the situation that ended with the scalation of the war because she wanted it, Sarfang was just used by her.

Varok's thinking and action was based on a strategy that failed when Sylvannas LOST on a 1v1 against Malfurion and needed him to save her. You cant decapitate a wounded and captured enemy and expect people to think it was honorable or just, it would make the Alliance unity stronger not weaker, as Varok itself suggested when he made the strategy.

So it is either Sylvannas fault for manipulating the events, or her fault for losing on a 1v1 against Maulfurion and not accepting the loss there. She burned the tree out of spite, and doomed the horde, and then pinned it on Saurfang. It just words, her actions are CLEAR.


Want me to judge Saurfang withtout talking about Sylvannas?

Saurfang didn't want to escalate the War, but he was conviced otherwise by his Warchief. He still didnt like the idea, but accepted the logic behind it.
He made a strategy to win fairly against the Alliance on Darnassus and let Alliance infight to see if they would recapture Darnassus or help Guilneass.
Then they invaded. His warchief lost a fair fight against enemy leader, he interveined in a a backstabbing way, and felt dirty for doing this, but he did because he had the duty to protect the Warchief.

The Warchief proceeds to tell him to kill a wounded and captured enemy. He refuses because it would not be honorable. Questioning his Warchief motives and still not in good shape after having delt a backstab, and after witnessing the weakness of his warchief against enemy leader, he stay there thinking about what to do. Then his enemy wife appears, and requests him to give him back or she would kill him. Wanting no more there, he says that she may have him if they both get out of darnassus and flee, else he would kill them both. She does so. He goes back to see his Warchief deciding to burn the city with civilians inside, and his Warchief pins on him the blame, a blame that was caused by the Warchief own weakness to deal with the enemy.

He then goes back to defend the city of the Warchief, that was expected to be the target after Darnassus fall. He feeling that he lost his honor, and the faith im his Warchief, decided it was better if he died on the battlefield, then to be there with his doubts about the Warchief goals. He is an old and scarred warrior, he was thinking that he had given enough, and it was his time to die.

Then Zapboy gives him some motivation to go back and fight, not for his Warchief, but for the people of the Horde, sons and daughters of old friends that died on the battlefield with him. The Horde still needed him. He goes to fight, and in the end he got captured. He could have killed Anduin, but he knew killing the pacifist King would only make things even harder for those Horde people he was now trying to protect.

He was imprisioned. Some Horde invasion group tried to take him out. He refused, he was not ready to go back, he was morning the helpless situation he was on, and thinking how he could save the Horde from its new Warchief.

Then Anduin walked in and talked with him. Saurfang didnt kill the boy in the past because he knew Anduin was a pacifist, and if there was any hope of saving the common people of the Horde it would be on him, and not on other leaders of the Alliance that hated the Horde. Anduin said that he needed Saurfang, wille Saurfang was counting on Anduin to get ride of his Warchief.

Even then Saurfang wasnt happy with the situation, and showed the boy king that he was not serving, but was dealing the cards there. He want his Horde back, the Horde that he sacrificed everything to, and that in his view the Warchief was destroying.

Anduin then say that he cant save the Horde from his Warchief alone, and left the door open for Saurfang to leave/flee the stockades.

And then Saurfang proceds to leave, be hunted by his old Warchief assassins, and get final confirmation that the Warchief has no Honor.

Saurfang is fighting for the PEOPLE of the Horde. To save the sons and daughters of his old friends. To save the people that lives on the Horde cities. To save the Honor of Azeroth Horde, the Horde he did everything to protect. And the Warchief is using the people, sacrificing people for an ultimate goal of undeath and world domination.

The Warchief is so insane that he uses plague against it is own troops, and that are the people that Saurfang want to protect.


Saurfang is a Hero! He lost his will to fight. He lost everything. He lost his post as High Warlord, and gave up on everything... and then he came back, not for the Warchief, not for vengeance, not for hatred, but to save the PEOPLE of the Horde. To save HIS HORDE from the Warchief.

He is the definition of a Warrior Hero. He is the militar leader that we should be inspired by. The guy that gives everything, and goes against what he truly want to do, in this case to just finally find the enternal rest, to protect the PEOPLE that he fought his whole life to defend, even if it means accepting help from Anduin, something he does with a fair share of disagreement and rage.

Saurfang is a perfect example of a truly dedicated and heroic warrior, with flaws, honor, and a terrible past. He is the Honor of the Horde as Varyan told Anduin.

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Exactly what he hates about his past. And you know, demonic blood and all right? He is a guy with a dark past that he tries all he can do correct knowing he will never be clean.

Dude I love you. You described with perfection a complex character with a few sentences.

Thanks for this, for anyone that have a shed of doubt about Saurfang just read this, and if after you still have doubt, read again because you probably have a hard time understanding english.

[Caerule]

The Alliance clearly hopes releasing him will be in their benefit. They are desperate for any way to change the current state of the war. Does that make Saurfang a traitor?

No way! All Saurfang did was walk out a door Anduin opened for him. In the quests we learn that Anduin did more than that to make sure he would escape without getting caught. So sure. Anduin is doing a lot here. But he is doing it unconditionally. Saurfang did not negotiate. He did not agree to terms. All Saurfang did was step out an open door, deciding his own desires can't be met in prison.

Sure, Anduin's going by the whole "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" here. But what did Saurfang actually do here? Are we really claiming it is treason to walk outside of jail when the enemy opens it for you? Should he have sat his ass back down? Would you have not walked out?

[Beerbill Society]

The elements themselves disagree. After Thrall's massive cheating they abandoned him, and rightly so. This is why the player gets Doomhammer.

Which is just a fan theory that for what was able to see has no official grounds.

This would be lackluster at best because the elements in AU dreanor are not the same of Azeroth, just like the Outland ones are not the same.

He used them in someone that endorsed and allowed the practice to Dark Shamanism the most cruel and vile way to treat the elements that ever existed.

Probably a lore screw up from the new team, that should know better, they needed a excuse to give Doomhammer after all.

Feel free to share a source of you have any.

[bledgor]

He is a coward (tried to commit suicide twice, then asked Anduin to deal with Sylvanas becasue he is a bitch), and refused to stand up to Sylvanas despite apparently disagreeing with her post Tree burning.

He betrayed the horde by not killing Malfurion or Anduin, resulting in countless more deaths, as he had a chance to kill 2 leaders effectively dealing a massive blow to Alliance leadership. Why didn't he do it? because of some bullshit honor HE felt (not even like either were unarmed, or not on a battlefield, both times the leaders were fighting the Horde). He values HIS honor above the lives of everyone else on the horde, and for that he can go fuck himself; he is a selfish, whiny, bitch, and a traitor.

[Torrasque]

Which is just a fan theory that for what was able to see has no official grounds.

This would be lackluster at best because the elements in AU dreanor are not the same of Azeroth, just like the Outland ones are not the same.

He used them in someone that endorsed and allowed the practice to Dark Shamanism the most cruel and vile way to treat the elements that ever existed.

Probably a lore screw up from the new team, that should know better, they needed a excuse to give Doomhammer after all.

Feel free to share a source of you have any.

LMAO, you seem to be ALL ABOUT THE LORE. However, now that it's against you "oh, it's a screw up." Convenient, isn't it?. It looks like you don't play a Shaman, at all.
I already gave you a source, if you want to directly ignore the lore of the Doomhammer questline and call it a "lore hiccup", that's your issue. You have your "proof" right there in front of you and I can BET you'll ignore it again.