Titanforging is here to stay

[InfiniteCharger]

The problem isn't TF by itself it is the entire gearing system in general which has evolved over time to what we have now.
Blizzard themselves have said in various venues that they don't want players looking at stats for gear drops and just look at ILVL.
In their minds, it shouldn't matter what drops you should just be happy for some sort of ILVL increase, no matter how trivial.
With that system in mind, WF/TF are supposed to be bonus "surprises" that give the player a boost ever so often to ILVL.

This philosophy is fundamentally different in many ways, but primarily it goes against the original concept of 'tiered gear'.
Meaning as you played, you had different tiers of gear based on the content you consumed. The formula was generally:
Green gear = easy content, which mostly was questing content.
Blue gear = more difficult content, requiring a group, could be quest content or dungeon content
Blue tier set = hardest dungeons and required defeating certain bosses to get a full set with set bonuses
Purple gear = raid content (most difficult tier of content)
Purple tier set = hardest raid content with tier set bonuses
Orange gear = legendary gear extremely rare and hard to get solo + group content

It was simple and easy to follow even though there was a lot of time gating originally that was relaxed eventually in going from tier to tier.

The new game has squashed all of those tiers basically into one tier: Purples from everything endgame.
Now, everybody is showered with purple gear (or in legion, legendary gear) just from playing normal content.
Because of that there is no sense of tiers of gear in the way that it used to exist. Now the only thing that matters is ilvl progression.
In the past, only the few who were doing the most difficult raid content cared about ilvl progression. Everyone else was moving up the tiers to get to that point. And that is what Blizzard wants. Every body is just looking for a little bit of ilvl progression over time within their purple gear tier.


The other problem with this other than the squashed or totally absent concept of tiers is that Blizzard has removed secondary stat importance. By making secondary stats totally randomized, they are saying that gear is gear and as long as it has a better ilvl you should be happy. But most players don't think that way. Many players still want to stack those traits they feel will be best for how they play the class. And as we have seen since WOD, by pruning and tweaking the classes every expansion along with the effects, this is becoming less useful. So they have removed another way players could customize their class for the build they wanted.

So in this new world of no well defined "tiers" and many different "alternate" forms of content outside raiding TF/WF makes sense.
But in the actual game it really doesn't, not in the current incarnation. Having logical tiers of content does provide the feeling of progression that people need. The current game doesn't provide that. And the systems they use to try and promote that feeling of progression like zone scaling actually do the opposite.

The problem with this is that now everybody plateaus at a certain ilvl fairly quickly and then it is very hard to move up after that.
Even when doing the most difficult content, the increase in ilvl over time is drastically diminished. And god forbid no concept of BiS at the high end or a "tier set" to go with it. TF makes that an impossible goal at endgame.

[Playintrafic]

Believe it or not, people complained about the badge system on forums and here everyday, just like they do about TF now.

Yeah they did, but it was more the special snowflakes pissed off because you get epix from doing 5 man content.

[swatsonqt]

I haven't said that I'm part of the majority, nice strawman there. The majority of players simply do not care. Nothing would change for PvE content even if they removed TF.. Titanforging does not inflate ilevels as much as you seem to think. Without TF players would only drop a couple of ilvls. Going from 370 to 368 doesn't matter at all.

Even without TF people would still require other players to have a similar or higher ilvl to their own and people would still require a high raider.io score for higher keys. The ilvl req for raids wouldn't change either. The good HC pugs would still require 365-370 ilvl and would still require AOTC.

So let's say they remove TF, let's assume you are correct and that TF inflates ilvl by a lot. Now you and all other casuals sit at 350 ilvl, all low key groups require 350-360+ while 10 and over keys require 370+. So what is the difference? You will still have a problem joining groups, heck it's even going to be harder for you to join groups because now the difference between someone that has done 100 +10 keys and someone that only do it weekly is huge.

Oh, you won't go down to 350 ilvl if TF goes away? No shit, because TF doesn't inflate ilvl by that much as I've said several times already. If you are at 370 ilvl right now, if TF goes away you will at most go down to like 365 but you will probably drop less than that.

you're really a special kind of..thinking.

These few ilvl drops are exactly the point? If you don't have the opportunity to bypass these by wf/tf then you have to actually take every step of progression.

And of course this would change ilvl requirements? If it's known that for example 355 is gathered by only doing (let's assume) +5 m+ runs you can absolutely say that someone with 355 has learned his way up to join your +6 and won't fuck up that hard. Right now you can't tell wether it's hard work put in the ilvl or if it is by a few lucky wf/tf.

It doesn't matter if it "does not inflate ilevels as much as you seem to think" because a handfull of people are enough to start a snowballeffect on this. And as soon as it started, as soon as someone with wf/tf performs really bad in your key you will likely put the requirement alot higher next time so that you don't get "the bads".

But...you said severel times that tf isn't that great of a deal..so i assume you're right saying it and i am wrong for saying that it is a big deal hm?^^

[Chillside]

the fact is that titanforging sometimes completely kills the desire to 'farm' a particular item. I've been trying to get this one item for about 2 months now ( still don't have it ) and literally 2 days ago i saw a newly 120 guy having a different item ( with same stats ) from normal mythic titanforged to 390... This is not okay.

[Aynen]

The should rebrand the 'titanforged' versions of items to look like they're the 'normal' versions. Then rebrand the 'normal' ones to look like they're 'weakened' or 'broken' versions. Then add upgrade tokens to the loot tables that 'fix' the broken ones into the 'normal' ones. You can still get the normal items to drop, at the same rate items used to drop before titanforging.

[Deleted]

you're really a special kind of..thinking.

These few ilvl drops are exactly the point? If you don't have the opportunity to bypass these by wf/tf then you have to actually take every step of progression.

And of course this would change ilvl requirements? If it's known that for example 355 is gathered by only doing (let's assume) +5 m+ runs you can absolutely say that someone with 355 has learned his way up to join your +6 and won't fuck up that hard. Right now you can't tell wether it's hard work put in the ilvl or if it is by a few lucky wf/tf.

It doesn't matter if it "does not inflate ilevels as much as you seem to think" because a handfull of people are enough to start a snowballeffect on this. And as soon as it started, as soon as someone with wf/tf performs really bad in your key you will likely put the requirement alot higher next time so that you don't get "the bads".

But...you said severel times that tf isn't that great of a deal..so i assume you're right saying it and i am wrong for saying that it is a big deal hm?^^

Your logic is flawed.

There are and have been before legion/bfa several sources of welfare gear like world-bosses, professions and weekly events for either normal or heroic level gear.

But thats basically why i love warcraftlogs and r.io, your gear doesn't matter to me.

[Chillside]

Your logic is flawed.

There are and have been before legion/bfa several sources of welfare gear like world-bosses, professions and weekly events for either normal or heroic level gear.

But thats basically why i love warcraftlogs and r.io, your gear doesn't matter to me.

You actually believe that logs and r.io can be mentioned in the same sentence?

[HuxNeva]

Yeah they did, but it was more the special snowflakes pissed off because you get epix from doing 5 man content.

No, it was because it was a boring chore to 'cap'.

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you're really a special kind of..thinking.

These few ilvl drops are exactly the point? If you don't have the opportunity to bypass these by wf/tf then you have to actually take every step of progression.

And of course this would change ilvl requirements? If it's known that for example 355 is gathered by only doing (let's assume) +5 m+ runs you can absolutely say that someone with 355 has learned his way up to join your +6 and won't fuck up that hard. Right now you can't tell wether it's hard work put in the ilvl or if it is by a few lucky wf/tf.

It doesn't matter if it "does not inflate ilevels as much as you seem to think" because a handfull of people are enough to start a snowballeffect on this. And as soon as it started, as soon as someone with wf/tf performs really bad in your key you will likely put the requirement alot higher next time so that you don't get "the bads".

But...you said severel times that tf isn't that great of a deal..so i assume you're right saying it and i am wrong for saying that it is a big deal hm?^^

Guess what: TF maxes out in practice on overall ilvl at about 7-8 ilvl (normal weekly play), in extremely rare circumstances (persistent farming) up to about 10-12 ilvls. 'Tiers' are 15 ilvls apart. You don't get to 'skip ahead'.

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You actually believe that logs and r.io can be mentioned in the same sentence?

Since both are related to your actual performance history they go very well together.
ilvl/gearscore on the other hand, has always been daft as a measurement.

[Chillside]

Since both are related to your actual performance history they go very well together.
ilvl/gearscore on the other hand, has always been daft as a measurement.

There is a biggest gap imaginable between logs and r.io when it comes to your actual performance, r.io is just as useless as ilvl. You check someone's logs and you can see how/she he did individually under different circumstances, but all that r.io gives you is just a number that's been given to him as a result of completing dungeons as part of 5m group

[HuxNeva]

There is a biggest gap imaginable between logs and r.io when it comes to your actual performance, r.io is just as useless as ilvl. You check someone's logs and you can see how/she he did individually under different circumstances, but all that r.io gives you is just a number that's been given to him as a result of completing dungeons as part of 5m group

Actually it gives you a whole history of the player's M+ runs, their raid progressions and kills, experience on their main (if you are on an alt).
Reducing r.io to 'M+ score' is the same as reducing WCL to the 'Best perf. avg'.

[arkanon]

Titanforging might be here to stay, but the players are not. People are speaking with their wallets and leaving wow in record numbers. And the only defense the blind fans have is "prove it herp derp"

[arkanon]

The real reason people are leaving in record numbers is because they gave Sylvanas pants.

I cant prove this wrong, so it is confirmed.

[Chillside]

Actually it gives you a whole history of the player's M+ runs, their raid progressions and kills, experience on their main (if you are on an alt).
Reducing r.io to 'M+ score' is the same as reducing WCL to the 'Best perf. avg'.

No no and no, logs give you everything you need to know about the guy behind the character and you can determine his capabilities out of those logs. Actually the fact that i have explain this is already a tragedy, r.io runs don't give you anything other than how a 5m group performed, let me tell you something, MOST people don't give a flying banana about m+ score, they just do weekly +10 run once per week and it doesn't matter whether or not they finish the dungeon in time, because in most cases there is that one friend that's getting boosted on his 320 ilvl character. How do you judge someone individually based on his mythic score.. and most importantly why do you think that you can judge someone based on that

[HuxNeva]

No no and no, logs give you everything you need to know about the guy behind the character and you can determine his capabilities out of those logs. Actually the fact that i have explain this is already a tragedy, r.io runs don't give you anything other than how a 5m group performed, let me tell you something, MOST people don't give a flying banana about m+ score, they just do weekly +10 run once per week and it doesn't matter whether or not they finish the dungeon in time, because in most cases there is that one friend that's getting boosted on his 320 ilvl character. How do you judge someone individually based on his mythic score.. and most importantly why do you think that you can judge someone based on that

Ok, so you list your Shrine +12 key, and get 40 dps applicants.
If I'm going to do a single key I don't give a rats ass about 'score'. I'm going to check first of all who of these has done a Shrine >=10 in time already, preferably on the same main affix (Tyrannical or Fortified). If it is an alt and the main has done it, I will check the ilvl of the alt (but if I'm honest in this case only if the main's score is good enough or if i lack applicants. Call me lazy or efficient as you like). I might also give preference to the class/specs that are meta against the secondary affixes.
What are you going to do with your warcraftlogs? See if someone did mechanics while pushing their buttons on Taloc?

And in case you are wondering, in your case you would be fine for me. Even though you've only done the 9, you have plenty of experience on Shrine across the affixes, so I assume you know the pulls, and know how to deal with G'Huuns from your other keys. Took me less than 20 sec to see this.

[Fkiolaris]

Titanforging might be here to stay, but the players are not. People are speaking with their wallets and leaving wow in record numbers. And the only defense the blind fans have is "prove it herp derp"

To be fair, they updated their excuses to include "if you don't like TF it means you support Trump" and "you think you had a BiS list but you didn't"

At some stage you realise there is absolutely no reason to try and argue with them, you just leave them and Blizzard with their merry game and go and spend your money elsewhere.

[Chillside]

Ok, so you list your Shrine +12 key, and get 40 dps applicants.
If I'm going to do a single key I don't give a rats ass about 'score'. I'm going to check first of all who of these has done a Shrine >=10 in time already, preferably on the same main affix (Tyrannical or Fortified). If it is an alt and the main has done it, I will check the ilvl of the alt. I might also give preference to the class/specs that are meta against the secondary affixes.
What are you going to do with your warcraftlogs? See if someone did mechanics while pushing their buttons on Taloc?

Yeah, i agree, however what i'm saying is that logs give you precisely everything, how much dps the guy did, how much dps was actually relevant dps and not aoe abuse just to get the dps up, how much damage the player took from avoidable sources, all of those little details. Now you obviously will never check these things while forming a random +10-12 group because.. who has time for that, and r.io LOOKS like an easy way to determine how capable the player is, but in reality it only shows how well the group did. Let's say you're trying to find a rogue for shrine, for shroud and short cooldown on kick right... makes perfect sense, and you found one with ~1100-1200 score, how do you know that he isn't an absolute moron, dying on every single boss, taking every sinle avoidable damage while missing half of his kicks but yet the rest of the group is good enough to carry. It's a different story when you're taking about 18-22 dungeons, but r.io is very misleading when it comes to 10-12 dungeons

[HuxNeva]

Yeah, i agree, however what i'm saying is that logs give you precisely everything, how much dps the guy did, how much dps was actually relevant dps and not aoe abuse just to get the dps up, how much damage the player took from avoidable sources, all of those little details. Now you obviously will never check these things while forming a random +10-12 group because.. who has time for that, and r.io LOOKS like an easy way to determine how capable the player is, but in reality it only shows how well the group did. Let's say you're trying to find a rogue for shrine, for shroud and short cooldown on kick right... makes perfect sense, and you found one with ~1100-1200 score, how do you know that he isn't an absolute moron, dying on every single boss, taking every sinle avoidable damage while missing half of his kicks but yet the rest of the group is good enough to carry. It's a different story when you're taking about 18-22 dungeons, but r.io is very misleading when it comes to 10-12 dungeons

Hey, it's not perfect, but it is a tradeoff between recall and precision.
For me, I don't pug anymore in BfA as we now have enough guildies running M+, so building up a PUG CV isn't necessary.
In Legion I pugged because we had few people interested in M+, and raider.io was a godsend for that.

We use live warcraftlogs extensively for raiding, and everyone loves it. However, the best raiders aren't always the best M+ players. Basic skills overlap ofc, but responsibilities and knowledge requirements tend to be higher in M+, while practice opportunities are often lower.

[Loveliest]

TF has led to way too many people getting into content they aren't suited for and ruining runs.

Yes, yes. TF is to blame, not boosts and the like. Because everyone taking you on a M+ checks your gear and not your raider.io or wowprogress score.
Can we stop this already?
Do you even remember WoD for example, where people were selling even CM run boosts (not medal) for the purple they gave? Or Legion, where people were boosting other's people's keys because they were limited and it was better to +3 certain keys than run higher ones? People weren't even joining your runs because it was easier and faster to just get a boost from a well geared team than just make a +1 timer. I'm not sure why people like to perpetuate myths like "TF is the reason people have good gear and no experience".

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Non mythic raider here. Heroic only.
I HATE titanforging. I hate the amount of added RNG to loot. I hate that every week I get something considerably worse from my M+ chest than I'm wearing from 6 weeks ago. I hate that I did an M+11 this week and got forged leggings that were worse than I'm already wearing (which are not from a high M+ key).

The system is ass. I hate that I can't go after a "BiS" list, I hate that my upgrades are just random and not something I chase actively or work towards, I hate how disappointing loot is now to the point where I can't be bothered doing M+ and have no aspirations of doing mythic raids for that top end shit when I can just do whatever and might get it anyway. They need to rethink this.

I really don't get you. Let me ask you:
When a WF/TF gear drops that's actually better or a whole lot better than what you have, what's your reaction? Like that piece you got 6 weeks ago?
How does it feel when you do a raid and you get no useful loot? (because nothing drops / you already have them / you have 380 from M+ weekly chest on the slot, not a TF/WF)
Would getting 370 useless legs from your +11 been better than getting TF/WF useless ones?
Are you convinced you can get decked in Mythic gear from doing 'whatever' compared to a Mythic raider? Because I'm also a heroic raider only and I've been doing a lot of M+ and I'm only 378 (two titanforges and two worforges in all)
Is gear the only thing that would make you do Mythic raids?

Look, some things I get, like getting a higher ilvl piece and it being worse than your current one, but that applies to every source, not just TF/WF. Azerite system is the same - you get something 15 lvls higher and you can't use it because it doesn't have your trait. Trinkets are also pretty bad and their ilvl kinda seems pointless. Secondary stats make or break rings and maybe even other pieces. A socket adds 40 stats which is HUGE and it makes you keep lower ilvl pieces. It's a lot of factors, TF and WF themselves are probably the smallest evil of the bunch. When a piece is crap it's gonna be even more crap at lower ilvl.

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People need a true end goal, this is not a looter game its an RPG, there needs to be a goal, whist that goal can be hard to obtain it needs to be mathematically possible at the very least in a reasonable amount of time.

Yes and the goal is killing your bosses with your friends. DOING, not HAVING, cause it's a game. [Boosting anyone? gets you faster to your true goal since gear in itself is all that matters, not how you get it; gear isn't a reward, but a purpose?]

I really really want to know how many people here had their one true goal set as getting bis gear before MoP came out.
No, wait, the real question is how many reached this "true goal" and what did they do after?
Also, what happens if the end of the expansion comes and you didn't get it - did it keep you through a year of the same raid just to get it? And how devastated are you when a new expansion or even a new tier comes and your BiS gear is no longer BiS?

This BiS thing seems like something someone came up with and it's being propagated because it sounds like a good enough reason. Do you guys remember how people used to spit on you when you said you're raiding for gear? And yet here we are, claiming getting gear as our one true goal.

[Deleted]

I just watched preach stream. He got 370itemlvl from world boss doing nothing and then on his alt priest with 280 itemlvl he got 385 imtemlvl trinket without even killing boss from bonus roll. I really had good laugh watching how pathetic this game is. https://clips.twitch.tv/EmpathicFunTaroOptimizePrime

#doyouneed?

[arkanon]

I just watched preach stream. He got 370itemlvl from world boss doing nothing and then on his alt priest with 280 itemlvl he got 385 imtemlvl trinket without even killing boss from bonus roll. I really had good laugh watching how pathetic this game is. https://clips.twitch.tv/EmpathicFunTaroOptimizePrime

#doyouneed?

At this point i put anyone who defends warforging in the same basket as those who defend good gear dropping from LFR. Its just 2 different spokes on the same wheel, and that wheel is the issue.

The mental gymnastics these people go through to defend getting gear you have no earned is just amazing, and they honestly seem to think they have the high ground. The current loot systems have been a major factor in the decline of this game, coupled with poor class design. Other factors? sure, but these are the ones we are seeing in ENDLESS threads on different forums, from players of all difficulties and levels of the game.

But this is fine. everything is fine.