Shuriken Combo removed on PTR.

[precious]

Lets not forget start of legion especially on cenarious the stack of shadow priests and the pre surrender to madness to burn the boss.

Priests were bursting at least 500k dps more from the second finishing the fight with 50% more dmg above all the rest. Later they nerfed it. We get abilities removed instead.

[Deleted]

Lol at all the comments saying that is was a good move to remove more abilities (even if it was a passive), just as long as your class isnt hurt right?

[Kralljin]

Priests were bursting at least 500k dps more from the second finishing the fight with 50% more dmg above all the rest. Later they nerfed it. We get abilities removed instead.

Due to the fact that Surrender was nerfed into a non competitive state, the talent was basically removed from the game past EM.

Besides, the burst from SP was not limited to Cenarius, Cenarius was just the only relevant fight in EM.

The comparison doesn't work, it's not like SP still have this magical ability that burns down difficult bosses.

[omeomorfismo]

affli survivability and single target was nerfed
multidot wasnt.

and that's also the point, the mechanics inherent to the fight were broken. they never shouldve let zul be like that.

the adds being useless doesnt add anything to the fight, it just detracts from it in every conceavable way.

imagine if they made a boss who's max health started at 20%(for which there's actual precedent)


should they then remove execute after?

there was an encounter so problematic as zul for executes?

then we can talk about zul's adds poor design all day, still the only problematic spec is sub. there isnt a single other spec that could do the same. the "niche" turned out to be too problematic

Lets not forget start of legion especially on cenarious the stack of shadow priests and the pre surrender to madness to burn the boss.

Priests were bursting at least 500k dps more from the second finishing the fight with 50% more dmg above all the rest. Later they nerfed it. We get abilities removed instead.

spriest were reworked in 7.1.5 and then surrender to madness was relegated only for fun speedkills. it wasnt simply nerfed

[shaunika123]

there was an encounter so problematic as zul for executes?

I like how you just admitted to the encounter being the problem


also, yes there was, albeit ~13 years ago, called vaelastrasz

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spriest were reworked in 7.1.5 and then surrender to madness was relegated only for fun speedkills. it wasnt simply nerfed

but the alternatives got buffed, SPs actually got compensation.

which is all we're asking for.

and surrender was broken across the board mind you not just on the 4th hardest boss in an 8 boss raid.

shadowpriests beat any other class on basically any fight that wasnt just mass AOE

sub rogues are beating(well not even that anymore) others on one fight and falling on their faces on the rest.

hardly a fair comparison.

[omeomorfismo]

I like how you just admitted to the encounter being the problem


also, yes there was, albeit ~13 years ago, called vaelastrasz

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but the alternatives got buffed, SPs actually got compensation.

which is all we're asking for.

and surrender was broken across the board mind you not just on the 4th hardest boss in an 8 boss raid.

i was saying that the problem was the interaction of sub and "zul environments"....
then i hardly take vanilla style design as example. i mean, it was the iteration with -XXX% elemental damage encounters, that in fact disappeared for right reasons very soon.

finally i doubt that the rework could be called compensation. the "niche" rightfully was killed (oh btw, a burst niche, so surprising!) after basically the spec lived as nothing more than affly's shadow (pun!! )

[shaunika123]

i was saying that the problem was the interaction of sub and "zul environments"....
then i hardly take vanilla style design as example. i mean, it was the iteration with -XXX% elemental damage encounters, that in fact disappeared for right reasons very soon.

finally i doubt that the rework could be called compensation. the "niche" rightfully was killed (oh btw, a burst niche, so surprising!) after basically the spec lived as nothing more than affly's shadow (pun!! )

lol STM was anything BUT burst

it was literally about ramping up lol

it's as anti burst as it can get.

also, we get it, you hate burst, too bad it's here to stay (or I'll quit, im fine with both) because it's as old an RPG archetype as RPGs themselves.

and it's not like dot classes havent been problematic in the past (I mean when was the last time warlocks werent OP?)


zul isnt the only problematic fight in the game, hell it's not even the only one in the raid.

ghuun is just as brokenly designed (hello it was unkillable without 4 warlocks before the nerfs)
how come changing the fight is completely fine when its warlocks who are being abused, but when sub rogues are they just take them out of the game.

[Kralljin]

also, yes there was, albeit ~13 years ago, called vaelastrasz

Okay, what's the next goalpost you are going to move to?

(Frost) Mages on Viscidus?

[shaunika123]

Okay, what's the next goalpost you are going to move to?

(Frost) Mages on Viscidus?

you realize that's why I said "albeit" and even "13 years ago" specifically to say it's irrelevant. I just thought to mention it because it did happen.

also, dont use big boy words if you dont know what they mean.

that's not what moving the goalpost means.

but hey, 'Ill just use another big boy word

you just strawmanned me with that.
gj

[Kralljin]

that's not what moving the goalpost means.

Dragging up Encounters from Vanilla is most certainly moving the goalpost as the encounter design from over a decade ago has absolutely no relevance for a discussion related to the current encounter design.

No "albeit" changes or justifies that.

And going by the past discussion i've had with you regarding this topic, you have a real thing for dregging up encounters that have no longer been part of the current content for years by now.

The fact that the perspective, opinion or even people on the developer team has changed over the last 10 years might have eluded you.

you just strawmanned me with that.

It was actually a rhetorical question, but whatever.

[shaunika123]

Dragging up Encounters from Vanilla is most certainly moving the goalpost as the encounter design from over a decade ago has absolutely no relevance for a discussion related to the current encounter design.

No "albeit" changes or justifies that.

And going by the past discussion i've had with you regarding this topic, you have a real thing for dregging up encounters that have no longer been part of the current content for years by now.

The fact that the perspective, opinion or even people on the developer team has changed over the last 10 years might have eluded you.

the oldest encounter i've dragged up in this discussion was chogall.
and cata was already kinda part of the "nuwow" and the new team
so I think that's kinda fair.

I also brought up plenty of examples from this very fucking raid and the one bfore it, apparently you seemed to ignore that.

I didnt drag it up though, He specifically asked if it had ever happened, and I responded that it had. that's not me dragging it up, that's me answering a question.
or what, should I have lied and said "no"?
No I said it did happen with the caveat that it's irrelevant now.

yoU're the one moving the goalposts now.


but hey keep hating on sub because it has the audacity to be good on one boss.

- - - Updated - - -

Dragging up Encounters from Vanilla is most certainly moving the goalpost as the encounter design from over a decade ago has absolutely no relevance for a discussion related to the current encounter design.

No "albeit" changes or justifies that.

And going by the past discussion i've had with you regarding this topic, you have a real thing for dregging up encounters that have no longer been part of the current content for years by now.

The fact that the perspective, opinion or even people on the developer team has changed over the last 10 years might have eluded you.

the oldest encounter i've dragged up in this discussion was chogall.
and cata was already kinda part of the "nuwow" and the new team
so I think that's kinda fair.

I also brought up plenty of examples from this very fucking raid and the one bfore it, apparently you seemed to ignore that.

I didnt drag it up though, He specifically asked if it had ever happened, and I responded that it had. that's not me dragging it up, that's me answering a question.
or what, should I have lied and said "no"?
No I said it did happen with the caveat that it's irrelevant now.


also, if taloc was the 6th boss of the raid people would be stacking the shit out of execute on him.

but hey we dont even need to go that far

people have stacked execute for ghuun since the only phase that matters dps wise is the last one.

for all intents and purposes, that boss starts on 20%

[Kralljin]

the oldest encounter i've dragged up in this discussion was chogall.

No, that was Yogg.

You complained how Affliction was totally broken on that fight and didn't receive any nerfs.
So yeah, you missed the decade mark by ~5 months (Ulduar was released Apirl 2009).
My bad.

But i'm not going to dig through that thread to proof you wrong unless ask for the reminder.

also, if taloc was the 6th boss of the raid people would be stacking the shit out of execute on him.

True, but i guess there's a reason why he's the first boss.
If Zul would have been the first boss, we wouldn't having this discussion, as most guilds would have one or two shotted him even without 5 sub Rogues - because he would the first boss.

people have stacked execute for ghuun since the only phase that matters dps wise is the last one.
for all intents and purposes, that boss starts on 20%

Even Top 10 Guilds had like 2-3 Warriors at most in their raid, which is within norms.
The Warlock were primarily there for the portal, P3 there was just the bonus.

Whether people would have still geared Warlock alts *just* for P3 is speculation on your part.

And i'm not going argue further with you about G'huun in that regard, done that already.

[Critical92]

You know why they had only 2-3 warrirors? Because ghuun is anti melee.
If ghuun had no spread mechanic the first kills would be 4 wls, 2 tanks, a few heals, remaining buff classes and the rest stacked with warriors.

You are really pathetic with your excuses. It is totaly irrelevant when an encounter was current content. Many encounters in the past favored some specs, but only when sub rogue abuses lazy designed adds it is ok to nuke the passive into the n'th dimension. Suddenly the ability is the culprit and not the boss design. We had the same in beta when subs lvl 100 talent row was just 1 ability and the rest was added a short time before the patch went life. Oh did i forgot that secret technique didn't work once it was implemented? No real testing possible. We didn't even really know what that spell did right before the patch. Now we are in the same situation.
8.1 hits next week and we have no idea if sub gets any compensation. Maybe tiny % adjustments, that won't really do much.
The hope we still have is that the new tfd doesn't get nerfed and trust me it will.

We all get it, you hate every other class.
Maybe you will get your goal and sub gets reworked into a range spec. We all know how good that worked for sv hunter.
See this thread when 9.0 alpha starts.

[shaunika123]

Even Top 10 Guilds had like 2-3 Warriors at most in their raid, which is within norms.

stacking even 3 of them on that fight means they were super broken there.

cos melee on that fight is just a nono.

also the whole "fire mage execute is actually broken" thing wasnt found out until too late (which method themselves have admitted)


and why NOT keep arguing about ghuun?

I mean you're calling sub OP for being mandatory on a 6th boss, but locks are apparently fine for being mandatory on the last one?

how does that make sense?

and for the record you COULD kill zull without stacking sub rogues unless you're going for world first

ghuun without the nerf was quite literally impossible without 4 locks.

[Critical92]

How long are lock portals being abused? How about we remove that. I can't think of 1 fight where you don't get a small advantage having a portal. Remember kj? Lock Portal abuse!

Sounds fair, am i right?

I hope you now see how stupid it looks and sounds removing abilities because they get abused at 1 boss.
Oh locks abuse every boss. NERF THIS!

[omeomorfismo]

lol STM was anything BUT burst

it was literally about ramping up lol

it's as anti burst as it can get.

also, we get it, you hate burst, too bad it's here to stay (or I'll quit, im fine with both) because it's as old an RPG archetype as RPGs themselves.

and it's not like dot classes havent been problematic in the past (I mean when was the last time warlocks werent OP?)


zul isnt the only problematic fight in the game, hell it's not even the only one in the raid.

ghuun is just as brokenly designed (hello it was unkillable without 4 warlocks before the nerfs)
how come changing the fight is completely fine when its warlocks who are being abused, but when sub rogues are they just take them out of the game.

blizz literally nuked from orbit STM literally because it was becomimng stack many spriests as possible to skip and make fast as possible the end of bosses, basically the same of zul stacking.
and the warlock niche in ghuun is nerfed, meanwhile there isnt a way to let other classes to do the same of sub

[Kralljin]

stacking even 3 of them on that fight means they were super broken there.

cos melee on that fight is just a nono.

That's an issue regarding Melee vs. Ranged, not a class stacking issue.

and why NOT keep arguing about ghuun?

Because i've been arguing with you about that boss already in the past, so i'd be just repeating myself like below now.

I mean you're calling sub OP for being mandatory on a 6th boss, but locks are apparently fine for being mandatory on the last one?

Because you fail to understand the difference between the two encounters and more importantly, the impact on future bosses.

Warlocks were mandatory because Blizzard had the brilliant idea to design a boss where you have to carry two orbs to two different locations at the same time that slows and pacificies you.

On top of that, the distance to travel is like 150 yards and on the way are pustules that slow you by 70% alongside roots that root you if you walk into them.

Sub Rogues are OP on Zul because multiple adds spawn around a boss, which just happen to be not that dangerous.

G'huun is a flawed encounter in that regard, without question, but the scenario that made Warlocks mandatory is rather specific, which makes it easily avoidable in the future, because it is such a very special scenario and as such rather easy to avoid without limiting design for any boss fight.

Zul at its core however was not a special scenario, encounters like these existed in the past, however then there was no spec that could leverage that much ST while doing so little AoE damage (which would render too many Sub rogues ineffective as adds then would die).

And this is the point i've been telling you quite a lot already, every boss with adds (which is an extremely general scenario) needs to be looked and checked how long are those adds are allowed to live in order to make said Zul strat not viable.

That is the problem, every AoE pack that spawns on a Boss must have some 10-15 second "enrage" timer (alongside a decent gap until the next spawn) in order to prevent any Zul strat.

That what happened on Zul would have happened on Zek'voz as well if the encounter itself would not be that easy, because the adds aren't that dangerous and the gain from it would be insane if you have like 5 Sub Rogues, you could just invite another healer in order to counter the bleed as those sub rogues more than make up a single dps.

How long are lock portals being abused? How about we remove that. I can't think of 1 fight where you don't get a small advantage having a portal. Remember kj? Lock Portal abuse!

AFAIK KJ required a single Lock portal, which is entirely legit.
Also, quite a few rogues were present on both KJ and Fallen Avatar, but i guess that's something we need not mention.

[shaunika123]

blizz literally nuked from orbit STM literally because it was becomimng stack many spriests as possible to skip and make fast as possible the end of bosses, basically the same of zul stacking.
and the warlock niche in ghuun is nerfed, meanwhile there isnt a way to let other classes to do the same of sub

yeah they nerfed the ghuun niche by nerfing the boss

and they nerfed the zul niche by nerfing sub

if you cant notice the difference between the two then I cant help you.


also STM was broken in literally every aspect of the game.
not just one boss, there's a fucking difference.

[elfporn]

Why is there any argument here?

Blizzard's stated design intent for sub's aoe damage is to create the funnel effect as their niche aoe. That has not changed officially.

That one fight in uldir favors sub rogues significantly due to the designed niche element to their aoe is perfectly okay.

Removing the ability and abandoning(or severely curtailing) the funnel niche with no compensation because they fucked up is not okay. All agree?

There are a ton of past examples that support the situation we have with zul as being okay, and within design tolerances - if it wasn't, it would have been handled much much sooner, not months later.

There are also examples where a spec was so overpowered that action was taken. This situation is 1 boss fight. The spec sucks on everything else.

Finally, this thread is pointless until we get official word. No point in arguing over what-ifs - we all think it's a dumbass decision from the worst dev group to date.

[Crookids]

Sub is just a wash in BFA. Bad in pvp and extremely niche and gimmicky in over. From my understanding, sub might have decent ST dps in 8.1 because the first dance trait is currently overtuned but that is gonna get nerfed. The spec is pretty much what survival was in HFC; dead and blizz will do nothing about because (hopefully) a rework is planned for the spec. I would argue that the spec should be built from the ground up because so much of the stuff that made it work in Legion is gone.

What? Sub is amazing in M+ with Secret Technique and will likely still be going forward in 8.1.

Perhaps a bit niche in raid environments, but there is always going to be the "better spec" overall for a 3 DPS class. Nevertheless, Sub is excellent for adds on Fetid, obviously it's the go to for Zul, solid on G'huun, better than Sin but not as good as Outlaw on Mother.