Bellular is wrong and his kind of mentality is what is wrong with WoW

[Coffeexbean]

wow is suffering because there is no active social community like there used to be which made rewards worth getting. If you get a fancy mount/title/or tmog no one gives a fuck and if youve been playing this game for long enough it isn't satisfying to yourself anymore either. There is no reward they can put in that will make the game worth playing. In mop we blamed the theme of the game, in wod we blamed the time travel, in legion some players with distracted enough with legendaries shit but a lot of others gave up after seeing that even with a proper theme the game does not live up to old expectations, now with the legendary shit out more people are starting to realize how empty and pointless it is to play an mmo when rewards dont mean shit when theres no one to share your victories with

[Soon-TM]

You don't know shit about what "most customers" seem to enjoy.

Actually I do, for we all know how subs went from Vanilla all the way to WoD

Most people like the RPG in MMORPG. That's kind of the point. Those flavors and toppings are the RPG elements.

And this.

[Nebron]

Wow, it's the most ignorant post I have read this week.

Every youtuber/ streamer continue to say the same thing about the WoW's problem. It's not a secret anymore. And yet posts like this happen to appear.
Everything you wrote is actually said by those content creators - including Bellular. This entire post feels like you have watched this videos for like 3 mins?

It's not only about making WoW harder or something. Warfronts don't feel challenging, mythic+ don't feel like a funny repeatable content, island expeditions feels like a pointless grind. The curve of power for a character is broken and instead of being steady, it raises exponentially.

Whatever you say, it's still all about rewards. You play to be rewarded. You take some goals, because at the very end there is a reward waiting for you. I don't understand your problem? They took challenge modes off, and put mythic+ instead. They realized people need a challenge so they added Mage towers in 7.2. Now, at Blizzcon they told that Mage Tower may return (maybe in a different form). The question is: if Mage Tower is a continuation for CMs, and it's so desired by players, why did they take it in first place?

It's only rewards that you play for... what are mounts, achievements, better gear, better xmogs, more power if not rewards for playing?
Long term goals:
Fame - be the best in server - through rewards that game provides.
Power - through items that are rewards.
Love for gameplay - you love the game that rewards you equally according to your efforts. Am I wrong?
Social aspects of the game - to pursue long term goals with a friends/ guild? Rewards?

Give it a better thought instead of making that discussion. Each aspect of the game you brought up is based on rewards.

[Th3Scourge]

wow is suffering because there is no active social community like there used to be which made rewards worth getting. If you get a fancy mount/title/or tmog no one gives a fuck and if youve been playing this game for long enough it isn't satisfying to yourself anymore either. There is no reward they can put in that will make the game worth playing. In mop we blamed the theme of the game, in wod we blamed the time travel, in legion some players with distracted enough with legendaries shit but a lot of others gave up after seeing that even with a proper theme the game does not live up to old expectations, now with the legendary shit out more people are starting to realize how empty and pointless it is to play an mmo when rewards dont mean shit when theres no one to share your victories with

This is very accurate. I'm sure they'll fix it by adding another 50 pets as rewards in the next patch

[MatadorMedia]

Everything is boring about WoW. The whole game has become an RNG slot machine with no way to impact rewards through play.

[clevin]

I'm probably repeating what someone has already said but....

To me the game needs to do a few things:

1) Make what you play be fun (content design)
2) Make how you play feel fun (class design)
3) Make repetitive activities fun/engaging/etc. (Encounter design).
4) Because there's a limit to 1-3, release new content often enoug that the majority of your players don't have long periods of nothing to do.

If I have stuff that's fun to do by definition I"m enjoying myself. If the mechanics of my class and of the content are engaging and fun then even repetitive content will be somewhat engaging at least for a while. If they release content often enough, then by the time most content is stale for most people, there will be new things to do.

[Strippling]

I think WoW has passed it's expiry date. Don't get me wrong, it had a good run but I think after 14 years there's not much Blizz can do to make WoW feel new and exciting again without creating a new game entirely.

And there is a common trend I'm seeing in Blizz lately, they are milking every cent they can from their various franchises and not really bringing anything new and fresh to the table. I mean, look at Blizzcon... no new games of franchises announced. WCIII reforged.... I mean yeah it'll be cool to see updated cinematics, but come on.. they're literally reselling a game that they created over 15 years ago. Where is the creativity? It's just a cash grab and to me it I just don't like this concept of milking your games dry and then milking them some more.

Compare Blizz to Bethesda (and yes I know they're not perfect either)... Bethesda have roughly only 1/4 of the assets and revenue that Blizz have, yet at E3 this year they announced 4 AAA games (again, not perfect games but still new games) on top of 2 mobile games. Compare that to Blizzcon, 1 new game (a reforge of an existing game, lul), 1 mobile game for a franchise that has had nothing major introduced for years now, some heroes added to their other franchises, oh and a new hearthstone expansion (which is to be expected). Blizzard used to set the standards in the gaming industry, now they're focused on milking old games.

- 14 years of WoW.... I think it's time for WoW 2.0 or just a new franchise altogether.
- WCIII reforged... how about WC4 instead?
- Diablo immortal... should have been announced along with Diablo 4 (which I understand is in the making) or at least a Diablo 4 teaser at the end of Diablo Immortal.
- Hearthstone/HoTS/Overwatch... doing fine I guess, but for how long?

[Heladys]

If you enjoy BfA then you don't enjoy MMO-RPGs. Sorry.

This isn't an RPG anymore.

Uh huh. Please do let your ass continue with the talking.

[Volitar]

Considerin we had mythic raiders, the supposedly epitome of best player, yell during the big bot-banwave that they cant raid anymore without a rotation bot just shows that your achivements mean nothing about knowledge.

So if a pro sports athlete is doping that means the whole sport is disqualified and they suck? That logic is pretty flawed.

[Destinas]

Why this is a flawed design? (a design focused on rewards)

Every game has rewards. Sometimes it's for the benefit of the game (like a strong weapon), sometimes it's cosmetic for, y'know, fun.

-What happens when Blizzard creates the "ultimate cosmetic of mass destruction everyone wants"? What happens to the rewards after that?
Its impossible to keep making a reward better than the previous one. And if they made the "ultimate" one, everything after that would feel boring...

Collection equilibrium isn't really something that could happen for people interested in collections. No one has the exact same tastes. On this very forum when the WoD armor and weapons were being datamined, there were people saying that they were all ugly, while others were excited to get those pieces for their orcs and draenei.

-Whats the point in having mount number #324 or transmog #222 i ask you.
What are you supposed to do when you get the transmog you want? Stop?

I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I use the rewards that I've earned. I just add every mount to my favorites, and use the "random favorite mount" button often. I create transmog sets that I cycle through when the mood strikes me. I often use the /randompet macro, and I love using toys all the time. It's not just about getting the collectible items, it's about using them too. That should be obvious.

Thing is, there is always something to get. Despite the fact that I've been playing regularly since WotLK, there are still pets, toys, mounts, and tons of transmog that I don't have - most of the class sets are incomplete for me, missing a piece here and there. Lots of things are rare droprates, and they add new stuff all the time. When there are content lulls, collectors like myself often go back to older content to try for stuff we've missed before.

Is it a playstyle for everyone? No. Is there something for nearly everyone to enjoy? Sure - throw enough spaghetti at a wall and some of it will stick. There are certainly people who don't care about collectibles at all and still play, as well. It's difficult for a game as big and repeatable as Blizzard to stay relevant without rewarding players - all modern MMOs do it, and all of them have some sort of collection and/or transmog system, and some even have player housing on top of that. It isn't a game where the reward is the game itself for most, like a single-player game on Steam.

[Soon-TM]

To me the difficulty should be more constant than it is. Sure, gear can make things a bit easier, but the degree to which you can cheese heroic raiding with gear is absurd. There's no satisfaction to killing it when you can ignore all but one shot mechanics (and by the way, that's why raids just have like 3 million one shot mechanics in them).

This is a good point. Right now, the game's difficulty is a constant flip flop between "trivial af" (95% of content) and "1 shot ur ded lolz" (high M+ and Mythic raiding). It's incredibly offputting, especially for a new player.

[Deleted]

Every game has rewards. Sometimes it's for the benefit of the game (like a strong weapon), sometimes it's cosmetic for, y'know, fun.


Collection equilibrium isn't really something that could happen for people interested in collections. No one has the exact same tastes. On this very forum when the WoD armor and weapons were being datamined, there were people saying that they were all ugly, while others were excited to get those pieces for their orcs and draenei.


I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I use the rewards that I've earned. I just add every mount to my favorites, and use the "random favorite mount" button often. I create transmog sets that I cycle through when the mood strikes me. I often use the /randompet macro, and I love using toys all the time. It's not just about getting the collectible items, it's about using them too. That should be obvious.

Thing is, there is always something to get. Despite the fact that I've been playing regularly since WotLK, there are still pets, toys, mounts, and tons of transmog that I don't have - most of the class sets are incomplete for me, missing a piece here and there. Lots of things are rare droprates, and they add new stuff all the time. When there are content lulls, collectors like myself often go back to older content to try for stuff we've missed before.

Is it a playstyle for everyone? No. Is there something for nearly everyone to enjoy? Sure - throw enough spaghetti at a wall and some of it will stick. There are certainly people who don't care about collectibles at all and still play, as well. It's difficult for a game as big and repeatable as Blizzard to stay relevant without rewarding players - all modern MMOs do it, and all of them have some sort of collection and/or transmog system, and some even have player housing on top of that. It isn't a game where the reward is the game itself for most, like a single-player game on Steam.

So...WoW is a collection game?
I dont know, i have no idea how other people play.

But watching Asmongold youtube videos...if all people are like him, this is a collection game.

This is an alien concept for me. Should wow be a collection game?

[Gref]

You don't know shit about what "most customers" seem to enjoy.

yes most of 14million has left the game. clearly "most customers" had no idea.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

My opinion:
Gameplay & Community > Everything else

Completely agree. The people who are asking for cosmetics and the like from already competitive content really just don't actually like playing the game for what it is.

I do wish there WERE more options like he said, but they do not need to "innovate" within this scope. If people dislike the stuff they have now, when there is just way too many things already, then they just don't like the game.

[Destinas]

So...WoW is a collection game?
I dont know, i have no idea how other people play.

But watching Asmongold youtube videos...if all people are like him, this is a collection game.

This is an alien concept for me. Should wow be a collection game?

For some people it is. For others it's a competitive PvP near-e-sport. For others it's all about raids, and even then some of them quit when there's nothing new. Some people roleplay. Some people twink for PvP or to experience raids/dungeons at certain level thresholds.

No, not all people are like Asmongold. I apologize if I sound condescending, but this very forum should show you that different people have different tastes, and different experiences. Not all people are anything collectively, other than people.

As far as collectors itself, WoW always had things to collect - but there weren't always viable means to keep those collections. I have been playing regularly since WotLK, but I started in late Vanilla. I collected pets when I discovered them. I simply stored them in my bank. WotLK added places to permanently store pets and mounts (which back then was on the character screen). That was added simply by demand. Eventually they added transmog, and storage for transmog, heirlooms, and toys. Even now you can collect things like book items, even though there's nothing to store it in (other than the bank/bags).

However. Not everyone collects things. Some do, and even then to different degrees. It's not for everyone, but there is a community for it, same as there are communities for PvP, raids, roleplay, etc. It's there for those that want it, but it can also be entirely ignored. The people that want rewards are the ones that asked for places to store the things they collected in the game already.

To answer your question, though, no, WoW shouldn't become just one thing. It shouldn't be a collection simulator, because there are plenty of people that don't collect things. It shouldn't just be about raids. It shouldn't just be about PvP, or any other one category. It's fine as an addition to everything else. I doubt the majority of WoW's players only collect everything. It's just a bonus to whatever else people are already doing.

If a collection item is an incentive for someone to do an activity - whether they collect all the time or not - and they enjoy themselves the whole time, does that really affect you?
If their incentive is the activity itself, and they happen to get a collection item that they enjoy, does that really affect you?

[Zyky]

Useless to say this is a short term thing and, to my knowledge, is not "rewards" that make people play the game on the long run.

You need to accept that you're wrong here. Rewards were always the reason that players stayed in raiding and there's a reason that since Titanforging guilds have shown less and less interest in raiding, players too. The same argument applies to M+, M+ is at an all time low in terms of the amount of players doing it because Blizzard reduced the rewards from doing it. It was an extremely popular feature all of Legion so saying "it's people being burned out" will not apply at all here.

[elynos]

No. They didn't. They just made certain classes and specs more mandatory than before.

If you aren't going to give certain specs the tools to deal with these situations. You shouldn't add them.

This all comes back to Class Design one way or another.



It's like Ion in the Q&A claiming that they really wanted to highlight specs strengths and weaknesses. That everyone should have them.

Is that why a Rogue is basically mandatory for high Mythic+ keys? The only other worthwhile melee is a Havoc DH.

I wonder why? What does an Arms Warrior bring to Mythic+? Basically nothing. Poor defensives, poor utility, poor sustain.

I won't even touch on tank balance in Mythic+. Where Blood DKs are king.

You cannot add mandatory things that need to be dealt with to trash packs when over 50% of the specs can't deal with them. Especially when the content is a fucking race to the finish.

arms warrior brings insane burst, battle shout, rallying cry, mortal strike to reduce enemy healing, great mobility, good interrupt, disarm.

[Deleted]

You need to accept that you're wrong here. Rewards were always the reason that players stayed in raiding and there's a reason that since Titanforging guilds have shown less and less interest in raiding, players too. The same argument applies to M+, M+ is at an all time low in terms of the amount of players doing it because Blizzard reduced the rewards from doing it. It was an extremely popular feature all of Legion so saying "it's people being burned out" will not apply at all here.

If people do content for the rewards and the rewards only (and they hate the content)
That will not take them far.

[Muajin76]

I am confused by the term *content creator* what game content do they actually create? Do they work with devs to create content for the game or what?

[elynos]

If people do content for the rewards and the rewards only (and they hate the content)
That will not take them far.

I don't see why anyone would hate the content, it's wow and wow is wow the more things change the more they stay the same.