The Horde has been hijacked by cartoon villains

[Darth-Piekus]

Who cares if he lived for an extra day, an extra week or an extra month. 10 or more years he and his kingdom were not even mentioned. He made his presence known and painted himself a target for elimination the moment he joined the new war with a side. The worst thing is that unlike what happened with Jaina in Tides of War he wasn't even threatened to be forced to pick a side or to help his allies.

The point is that he became the first victim amongst many on a needless conflict

[Verdugo]

Who cares if he lived for an extra day, an extra week or an extra month. 10 or more years he and his kingdom were not even mentioned. He made his presence known and painted himself a target for elimination the moment he joined the new war with a side. The worst thing is that unlike what happened with Jaina in Tides of War he wasn't even threatened to be forced to pick a side or to help his allies.

The point is that he became the first victim amongst many on a needless conflict

Alliance killed him, not Sylvanas.

[Arrashi]

Alliance killed him, not Sylvanas.

No you don't understand, sylvanas FORCED alliance to kill him. Just as planned.

[sighy]

Who cares if he lived for an extra day, an extra week or an extra month. 10 or more years he and his kingdom were not even mentioned. He made his presence known and painted himself a target for elimination the moment he joined the new war with a side. The worst thing is that unlike what happened with Jaina in Tides of War he wasn't even threatened to be forced to pick a side or to help his allies.

The point is that he became the first victim amongst many on a needless conflict

There is a point to be made that he was pressured into it by Talanji. Who sought outside help, with the internal issues of Zandalar that have festered to the point of threatening it's very existence. We've arrived just in time to stop and/or mitigate the effects of plots and schemes that have been going on for many years before BfA. And ahd we not intervened there is a very real chance the Zandalari Empire would have been entirely obliterated resulting in release of G'huun.

You can't in good faith claim that the Zandalari have not benefited from their aliance with the Horde. Their fleet was a bargaining chip to get help they sorely needed.

[Super Dickmann]

Who cares if he lived for an extra day, an extra week or an extra month. 10 or more years he and his kingdom were not even mentioned. He made his presence known and painted himself a target for elimination the moment he joined the new war with a side. The worst thing is that unlike what happened with Jaina in Tides of War he wasn't even threatened to be forced to pick a side or to help his allies.

The point is that he became the first victim amongst many on a needless conflict

That's moon logic. Sylvanas ordering us to free Talanji and then having us support the Zandalari is the sole reason Zandalar isn't giant maggot country right now.

[Jastall]

That's moon logic. Sylvanas ordering us to free Talanji and then having us support the Zandalari is the sole reason Zandalar isn't giant maggot country right now.

There's maybe a slight argument to be made that we also freed Zul who was instrumental to G'huun's plans, and letting the Horde in probably turned many Zandalari against Rastakhan which allowed Zul to recruit enough followers that his outnumbers the Rastari. So perhaps without us G'huun wouldn't have been an immediate problem which then required our aid, albeit with the head in the sand management going on at the Golden Throne that's a small comfort.

But even as someone who really dislikes Sylvanas and everything she represents, the idea that she's responsible for old Rasta biting it is total nonsense, considering even the Alliance didn't want him dead at first.

[Super Dickmann]

There's maybe a slight argument to be made that we also freed Zul who was instrumental to G'huun's plans, and letting the Horde in probably turned many Zandalari against Rastakhan which allowed Zul to recruit enough followers that his outnumbers the Rastari. So perhaps without us G'huun wouldn't have been an immediate problem which then required our aid, albeit with the head in the sand management going on at the Golden Throne that's a small comfort.

But even as someone who really dislikes Sylvanas and everything she represents, the idea that she's responsible for old Rasta biting it is total nonsense, considering even the Alliance didn't want him dead at first.

It's a pet theory of mine that Zul deliberately accompanied Talanji and let them get ambushed because the conspirators plan could essentially go on without him, whereas without Talanji there, there's no check on the blood troll army or on raising Mythrax. And so long as Jakra'zet raises Mythrax, the plan succeeds, since their win condition is breaking the seal. You have to remember that without Talanji, Ateena is alive and all the Nazmir loa short of Bwonsamdi are either corrupted servants of G'huun or chow for the blood trolls.

[Jastall]

It's a pet theory of mine that Zul deliberately accompanied Talanji and let them get ambushed because the conspirators plan could essentially go on without him, whereas without Talanji there, there's no check on the blood troll army or on raising Mythrax. And so long as Jakra'zet raises Mythrax, the plan succeeds, since their win condition is breaking the seal. You have to remember that without Talanji, Ateena is alive and all the Nazmir loa short of Bwonsamdi are either corrupted servants of G'huun or chow for the blood trolls.

I suppose, but without Zul and his all-important powers of prophecy leading the Zandalar conspirators it seems unlikely they would move against Rastakhan, so the city would be far more heavily defended against Mythrax. You do have a point regarding Nazmir, plus Taloc would lead the charge. So the end result is probably similar, the difference is that if the Horde is there, it has a team of champions who have a lot of experience killing Old Gods and thus the seal being broken mostly means it's open season on giant maggot gods.

None of that changes that Sylvanas is hardly responsible. She has done enough actual bad things, no need to invent more.

[Verdugo]

None of that changes that Sylvanas is hardly responsible. She has done enough actual bad things, no need to invent more.

Feel free to disagree, but obviously @Darth-Piekus has the entire expansion figured out.

[Jastall]

Feel free to disagree, but obviously @Darth-Piekus has the entire expansion figured out.

Well to be fair, the expack is fairly predictable as of now unless Blizzard veers wayyyy off course from their usual storytelling. But blaming Sylvanas for the battle of Dazar'alor and Rastakhan refusing to surrender would be far sillier than blaming her for the Wrathgate.

[Syegfryed]

The question is would you rather follow an oathbreaking deserter and traitor or your people's greatest hero who is just as ruthless as she was, when she was the Ranger General, except leading everyone instead of just the military?

Sylvanas is an Oathbreaker traitor as well, stop the hypocrisy, she already blackmail lorthemar forcing him to help in nortrend and tried to resurrect blood elves in his face, if she is fucking up the horde and causing blood elves do die he would not follow her no matter what she was in life

Again, its common sense, they would rather chose the living and survive

[Super Dickmann]

I suppose, but without Zul and his all-important powers of prophecy leading the Zandalar conspirators it seems unlikely they would move against Rastakhan, so the city would be far more heavily defended against Mythrax. You do have a point regarding Nazmir, plus Taloc would lead the charge. So the end result is probably similar, the difference is that if the Horde is there, it has a team of champions who have a lot of experience killing Old Gods and thus the seal being broken mostly means it's open season on giant maggot gods.

None of that changes that Sylvanas is hardly responsible. She has done enough actual bad things, no need to invent more.

I'm not bothering with the Sylvanas point since it's pretty clear and the only with that position hasn't replied yet. That and the Zandalar conspiracy is more interesting. One could spin it into how much credit Sylvanas deserves for adding allied races into the Horde and how that already causes problems since they have no frame of reference for what the Horde is before hers, but still.

Essentially, the end result are stronger blood trolls + Taloc, but Rezan is alive unless Yazma just does the stabbing with the soul poison in Zul's place. Without the Horde appearing, G'huun infests the continent so while we might eventually kill him, their civilization is destroyed.

[sighy]

Sylvanas is an Oathbreaker traitor as well, stop the hypocrisy, she already blackmail lorthemar forcing him to help in nortrend and tried to resurrect blood elves in his face, if she is fucking up the horde and causing blood elves do die he would not follow her no matter what she was in life

Again, its common sense, they would rather chose the living and survive

You actually don't have proof that she acted, before Garrosh went coocoo and announced that there are only orcs, in his Horde.(Lor'themar is in the same boat there)

A reminder that you have to pull your weight, if you want to be a part of the Horde.

Also do you believe she is so meta as to lie, in her inner monologue or actually cares about he future of the Horde? She is brutal in the pursuit of it, but your "she wants to kill all the living" assumption is just that... an assumption.

[Darth-Piekus]

That's not the point.We can all speculate what could might have happened but we don't know if that would have happened for sure.However we know 100 percent that Rastakan ensured his death the moment he joined Sylvannas. It's not Sylvannas fault that he died but he was a victim of her needless war.

[Super Dickmann]

That's not the point.We can all speculate what could might happen but we don't know what will happen for sure.However we know 100 percent that Rastakan ensured his death the moment he joined Sylvannas. It's not Sylvannas fault that he died but he was a victim of her needless war.

That logic is retarded. Let's go over this again. The Alliance capture his daughter and grand vizier, then the Horde under Sylvanas free them and help keep his empire from being completely destroyed by a pseudo-Old God and save his life. Then the Alliance invade his city with the aim to capture him and take it over but instead 'accidentally' kill him, the clumsy fucks. Afterwards it's the Horde that repels the Alliance from fully taking over the city and stand by his daughter at his funeral.

Without the Horde, he'd still be in conflict with the Alliance, but hey, he and his subjects would be dead earlier, preventing him from being killed during the Battle for Dazar'alor.

[Darth-Piekus]

Would he? Let me remind you that the only reason the Alliance went to capture Rastakan was because they wanted to weaken the Horde by severing their ties with the Zandalari. The point remains that Rastakan painted himself a target the moment he joined the Horde and unfortunately he didnt get captured. The end result remains the same.Call it what you want. In the end he was another victim of Sylvannas's war.

[Super Dickmann]

Would he? Let me remind you that the only reason the Alliance went to capture Rastakan was because they wanted to weaken the Horde by severing their ties with the Zandalari. The point remains that Rastakan painted himself a target the moment he joined the Horde and unfortunately he didnt get captured. The end result remains the same.Call it what you want. In the end he was another victim of Sylvannas's war.

When the Alliance kills you, the Horde is responsible. The Alliance had already captured Talanji and Zul well before Sylvanas made contact. Without the Horde, under Sylvanas, he and his Empire would be wiped out. Of course Rastakhan would assist them, he has zero reason not to.

[Syegfryed]

You actually don't have proof that she acted, before Garrosh went coocoo and announced that there are only orcs, in his Horde.(Lor'themar is in the same boat there)

what? LUL

Also do you believe she is so meta as to lie, in her inner monologue or actually cares about he future of the Horde? She is brutal in the pursuit of it, but your "she wants to kill all the living" assumption is just that... an assumption.

she don't care about the future of the horde, she only care about the horde as long is being useful for her archiving her own goals, you need to be blind or dumb to believe otherwise, she is not "brutally fighting for the horde" she is wasting horde lives for something of her own selfish desire.

I never said she want to kill all the living, even when is heavily implies that, i said the living would rather stay with the living

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When the Alliance kills you, the Horde is responsible. The Alliance had already captured Talanji and Zul well before Sylvanas made contact. Without the Horde, under Sylvanas, he and his Empire would be wiped out. Of course Rastakhan would assist them, he has zero reason not to.

i mean, if the horde didn't ally with him, they would not be direct alliance enemies by raw

saying that, i still can't figure out how the fuck sylvanas did know all the things about zandalar and how we should totally make then join us, neither why talanji and zul are in alliance prison, if the start of the expansion is such a shitshow we can expect to continue this way i guess

[Ardourdan]

TLDR; Blizzard have failed to recognise their player base is now much older and yearns for a darker game.

[Darth-Piekus]

what? LUL




she don't care about the future of the horde, she only care about the horde as long is being useful for her archiving her own goals, you need to be blind or dumb to believe otherwise, she is not "brutally fighting for the horde" she is wasting horde lives for something of her own selfish desire.

I never said she want to kill all the living, even when is heavily implies that, i said the living would rather stay with the living

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i mean, if the horde didn't ally with him, they would not be direct alliance enemies by raw

saying that, i still can't figure out how the fuck sylvanas did know all the things about zandalar and how we should totally make then join us, neither why talanji and zul are in alliance prison, if the start of the expansion is such a shitshow we can expect to continue this way i guess

Considering the character of Anduin having Talanji in prison might have lead toa completely different scenario as we literally have no idea when they got captured. The fact remains that we can only speculate about the future. The only thing that's certain is that Rastakan got dragged and killed in a needless war from someone who doesnt care either for the Horde or the Zandalari but cares only to kill the living and bring them back as undead.