If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[cuafpr]

Agree. I'd like a system where you don't have to respec your talents before every boss.

this i can agree with.. thankfully i don't push M+ or mythic raids so i just choose a spec and stick with it entire raid.

[Avengerx]

It seems like people somehow remember talent builds differently as I do. Iirc most was 80-90% cookie-cutter build, last few points were up to you. Wow I leveled, I can increase my crit by 1%, or damage of one ability by 5%.

[mostvp71]

Wow I leveled, I can increase my crit by 1%, or damage of one ability by 5%.

Yeah, and to me personally, that made leveling a toon more enjoyable, felt like your character was actually developing something BfA is sorely lacking.

[Kaver]

Imo, If Blizzard had chosen to go back to the old talent system they could have done something great with Legion's Artifact Traits in combination with BfA's Azerite Traits, Talents (PvE+PvP) and a few WoTLK talents. I feel like BfA classes are lacking so much depth atm that there's not much that distinguishes classes anymore so got bored and kinda customized the Arms Warrior tree in an attempt to how I would give classes more depth like they had in previous expansions:

**Note before anybody says "Wow that would be too OP" each class would be getting this kind of depth back in their trees, this is only the Arms Warrior tree I haven't done the fury/prot trees yet or any other classes**


Warriors gain Charge Stun back
Warrior Baseline Abilites learned from levels:
Spell Reflect
Intervene
Disarm
Shockwave
Reinforced Armor
Shattering Throw
Sunder Armor
Bloodrage
Arms Warrior Baseline Abilites learned from levels:
Duel
Skull Spliter
Rend
Impending Victory
Collateral Damage
Rude Interruption
Thunderclap


Talents starting top at left going diagonally:
1. Unending Rage: Increases maximum rage by 50; Rank 5/5
2. Stormbolt:Hurls your weapon at an enemy, causing (16.38% of Attack power) Physical damage and stunning for 4 sec.
3. Touch of Zakajz: Heals you for 9% of the damage you deal with Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst/Shield Slam; Rank 3/3
4. Shadow of Colossus: Charge resets the cooldown on Overpower/Raging Blow/Shield Slam and increases rage from charge by 15; Rank 2/2
5.Tactical Advance: When heroic leap lands, you gain 50% armor and a chance to parry for 4 seconds; Rank 5/5
6. Many Will Fall: Increase damage of Whirlwind by 15%; Rank 3/3
7. War Machine: Your auto attacks generate 2% more rage in addition to generating 2 rage and increasing movement speed by 6% for 8 seconds after a killing blow; Rank 0/5 (Rank 5 10%/10 Rage/30% movement)
8. Soul of the Slaughter: Spending rage has a 1.00% chance per rage spent to heal you for [1,500% of attack power]; Rank 1/1.
9. Impale(WoTLK talent): Increases critical strike damage bonus by 20%; Rank 2/2
10. Deep Wounds: Striking an enemy with Mortal Strike, Execute and Bladestorm inflicts deep wounds dealing 48% of your weapon’s average over 6 seconds; Rank 3/3
11. Seasoned Soldier: Your auto attack criticals generate 30% more rage and increases your damage by 3%; Rank 3/3.
12. One Against Many: Cleave increases damage dealt by your next Whirlwind by 4% for each target hit; Rank 2/4(Rank 4 8%)
13. Fervor For Battle: Whirlwind does 5% increased damage, and Slams your primary target; Rank 0/2 (Rank 2 10% damage)
14. Death Sentence: Execute now has a 15 yard range, causing you to charge to targets when used; Rank 1.
15. War Banner: You throw down a war banner at your feet, rallying allies. Increases movement speed by 30% and reduces the duration of all incoming crowd control effects by 50% to all allies within 30 yards of war banner. Lasts 15 seconds; Rank 1.
16. Avatar: Transform into a colossus for 20 seconds, causing you to deal 20% increased damage and removing all roots and snares.
Generates 20 rage; Rank 1
17. Second Wind: Whenever you are struck by a stun or immobilize effect, generate 20 rage and 10% of your total health over 10 seconds; Rank 2/2
18. Shattered Defenses: After using Colossus Smash/Warbreaker, your next Mortal Strike deals 50% increased damage; Rank 1.
19. Ravager: Throw a
whirling weapon at the target location that inflicts [7 * (44.226% of Attack power)] damage to all enemies within 8 yards over 5.9 seconds.
Generated 7 rage each time it deals damage; Rank 0/1
20. Crushing Assault: Increases damage dealt by slam by 10%. In addition, Your melee abilities have a chance to increase the damage of your next Slam by 4638 and reduce its Rage cost by 20; Rank 2/2.
21. Deathblow: Execute is now usable on targets below 35%, and increases the critical strike chance of Execute by 15%; Rank 3/3
22. Corrupted Blood of Zakajz: Your attacks cause an additional 20% shadow damage for 5 seconds after using Colossus Smash/Warbreaker; Rank 3/3.
23. Warbreaker: Smash the ground and shatter the armor of all enemies within 8 yds, dealing (150% of Attack power) Physical damage and increasing damage you deal to them by 30% for 10 sec; Rank 1/1.
24. Double Time: Increases maximum number of charges on Charge by 1, and reduces it’s cooldown by 3 seconds; Rank 1/1.
25. Executioner’s Precision: Execute causes the target to take 75% more damage from your next Mortal Strike, Stacking up to 2 times; Rank 1/1.
26. Gathering Storm of Destruction: Reduces the cooldown of Bladestorm by 33%, and Bladestorm now also applies Mortal Wounds to all targets you hit. In addition While Bladestorming, every 0.8 seconds you gain 5% movement speed and 220 strength, stacking up to 6 times, lasts 6 seconds; Rank 1/1.
27. Sudden Death: Your melee attacks have 9% chance of making your next Execute cost no rage, be usable on any target regardless of their health, and deal damage as if you spent 40 Rage; Rank 3/3.
28. In For The Kill: Warbreaker increases your haste by 10%, or by 20% if any target is below 20% health. Lasts 10 seconds; Rank 1/1.
29. Dreadnaught: Overpower has 2 charges, and it increases the damage of your next Mortal Strike by an additional 10%; Rank 2/2.
30. Anger Management: Every 20 Rage you spend reduces the remaining cooldown on Warbreaker, Bladestorm and Avatar by 1 second; Rank 5/5.
31. Sharpen Blade: When activated, your next Mortal Strike will deal 15% increased damage and reduce healing taken by 50% for 6 seconds, Rank 1/1.

Thoughts, Comments?

If Blizzard combined the Old Talent Trees + Legion Traits + BFA Traits, it would only work if people stopped crying about balancing all the time because it would definitely be more challenging to balance the classes.

Right now there is very small difference between the classes of the game. But people are still complaining if they do 2 % less damage compared to others. Your suggestion would cause a complete shit-storm if people don't change their mindsets.

[Exquis]

I miss the old trees so much, even if classes were a tad unbalanced, but each class had its Strength on a specific boss or bit of content id love it.

I like the idea but the illustration just kind of seems like "we have enough points to grab literally everything" resulting in just about 0 depth.
There would have to be choices and varying options with limited points to create any meaningful depth.

[Piesor]

except to get gear you actually have to play what you dont like for 5 months

You are right, but that was just a problem because of the high respec costs not because of the talent system itself.
If you want to play competetive you have to go with the best performing build. Does not matter if you have just 7 talents to pick or 51 points to spread in a talent tree.

[Halyon]

Its horrific, and its one of the reasons why the player base isnt supporting the blizz development team the way they used to. it doesnt need to be like Path of Exile, just in depth enough to feel like our character is our own not some cookie cutter copy of who ever is leading the ranks

Except it will always be cookie cutter. Unless everything is homogenized to shit, there will ALWAYS be cookie cutter builds. And most people will run them outside of gimmicks or niche situations where some stats/items makes something else marginally better.

[Skildar]

The old system has not much to offer, and makes optimization horrible.
I trully don't want them to go back to this system, but I'd like them very much to explore new concepts.

[mostvp71]

If Blizzard combined the Old Talent Trees + Legion Traits + BFA Traits, it would only work if people stopped crying about balancing all the time because it would definitely be more challenging to balance the classes.

Right now there is very small difference between the classes of the game. But people are still complaining if they do 2 % less damage compared to others. Your suggestion would cause a complete shit-storm if people don't change their mindsets.

I mean that’s true, but they balanced it in Legion and most of these traits are just BfA talents/Arms Warrior artifacts and one or two wotlk talents. The point I’m trying to make is that they built up classes in Legion that they could have built upon in BFA but instead scrapped the entire thing.

[MasterMirror]

I agree, I'd love to have the talent tree back. Course, for high end content everyone would be running the exact same build, but a talent tree surely would give the feeling of a more "personal" build.

[Avengerx]

Yeah, and to me personally, that made leveling a toon more enjoyable, felt like your character was actually developing something BfA is sorely lacking.

I agree that the leveling process could use some rework, but I think people just rate vanilla talents too high because of the nostalgia.

[bledgor]

You mean the old talent system with cookies cutter builds? Where you changed it a few days after patch when everyone figured out the best build? And it was bloated with useless talents like 5% wand damage? I will HARD pass on that.

[Lochton]

Though I miss it, it wouldn't be more than cookiecutter builds most people use anyways.

[mostvp71]

The old system has not much to offer, and makes optimization horrible.
I trully don't want them to go back to this system, but I'd like them very much to explore new concepts.

I agree, even if they stuck with the newer talent system they need to bring make more abilities and older passives that they had before, make them unlock as you leveled.

[Kaver]

I mean that’s true, but they balanced it in Legion and most of these traits are just BfA talents/Arms Warrior artifacts and one or two wotlk talents. The point I’m trying to make is that they built up classes in Legion that they could have built upon in BFA but instead scrapped the entire thing.

Definitely. Legion was a success on many points. They added M+ which was a huge success. Legendaries were also great besides the way you collected them.

In BFA they scraped a lot of great content ideas from Legion and then they added shit like Warfronts and Island Expeditions... So I'm very concerned about the design standard Blizzard is following. How can you go from Legion class design to BFA class design? How can you go from adding M+ to adding Warfronts? I just don't understand where Blizzard are going...

[mostvp71]

You mean the old talent system with cookies cutter builds? Where you changed it a few days after patch when everyone figured out the best build? And it was bloated with useless talents like 5% wand damage? I will HARD pass on that.

Pretty sure WoTLK cleaned up the wand damage sort of talents, my point was mainly to increase class depth weither it be old talent system or abilites/passives unlocking by level.

- - - Updated - - -

Definitely. Legion was a success on many points. They added M+ which was a huge success. Legendaries were also great besides the way you collected them.

In BFA they scraped a lot of great content ideas from Legion and then they added shit like Warfronts and Island Expeditions... So I'm very concerned about the design standard Blizzard is following. How can you go from Legion class design to BFA class design? How can you go from adding M+ to adding Warfronts? I just don't understand where Blizzard are going...

Lmao, don’t ask me seems everybody besides Blizzard knows what’s good for the game.

[Zantera]

Sure the old talent trees had cookie cutter builds and even though the options seemed limitless, in the end it boiled down to the same few builds, that's always gonna be a factor and it is in many ways still today. Yeah I know some specs now change around 1 or 2 talents if it's AoE heavy or ST but that's about it.

I guess it depends what you want. In a perfect world you could have both a more in depth and dynamic talent tree AND options.

[Philomene]

People talking about cookie cutter builds like if they don’t exist anymore lmao. It is just tied to RNG loot azerite traits now but as long as WoW is a thing there will be cookie cutter builds that serious people will lean towards. New system isn’t better than the older, it’s designed so you can’t make retarded choices so clueless players are less likely lost in their choices.

New talents are meant to make the game easier to understand and maintain, period

[bledgor]

Pretty sure WoTLK cleaned up the wand damage sort of talents, my point was mainly to increase class depth weither it be old talent system or abilites/passives unlocking by level.

- - - Updated - - -


Lmao, don’t ask me seems everybody besides Blizzard knows what’s good for the game.

THE ONLY thing old talents would bring is have more things while leveling to pick, and there were still plenty of useless talents in Wrath, they just weren't necessarily 5% wand damage. If you want more things while leveling I'd think it would be far better for them to revamp levels and make 60 max level next expansion. Picking passive % damage buffs, healing, or damage mitigation isn't going to increase class depth, it will just further enable you to do things you already do.

[kamuimac]

Imo, If Blizzard had chosen to go back to the old talent system they could have done something great with Legion's Artifact Traits in combination with BfA's Azerite Traits, Talents (PvE+PvP) and a few WoTLK talents. I feel like BfA classes are lacking so much depth atm that there's not much that distinguishes classes anymore so got bored and kinda customized the Arms Warrior tree in an attempt to how I would give classes more depth like they had in previous expansions:

**Note before anybody says "Wow that would be too OP" each class would be getting this kind of depth back in their trees, this is only the Arms Warrior tree I haven't done the fury/prot trees yet or any other classes**


Warriors gain Charge Stun back
Warrior Baseline Abilites learned from levels:
Spell Reflect
Intervene
Disarm
Shockwave
Reinforced Armor
Shattering Throw
Sunder Armor
Bloodrage
Arms Warrior Baseline Abilites learned from levels:
Duel
Skull Spliter
Rend
Impending Victory
Collateral Damage
Rude Interruption
Thunderclap


Talents starting top at left going diagonally:
1. Unending Rage: Increases maximum rage by 50; Rank 5/5
2. Stormbolt:Hurls your weapon at an enemy, causing (16.38% of Attack power) Physical damage and stunning for 4 sec.
3. Touch of Zakajz: Heals you for 9% of the damage you deal with Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst/Shield Slam; Rank 3/3
4. Shadow of Colossus: Charge resets the cooldown on Overpower/Raging Blow/Shield Slam and increases rage from charge by 15; Rank 2/2
5.Tactical Advance: When heroic leap lands, you gain 50% armor and a chance to parry for 4 seconds; Rank 5/5
6. Many Will Fall: Increase damage of Whirlwind by 15%; Rank 3/3
7. War Machine: Your auto attacks generate 2% more rage in addition to generating 2 rage and increasing movement speed by 6% for 8 seconds after a killing blow; Rank 0/5 (Rank 5 10%/10 Rage/30% movement)
8. Soul of the Slaughter: Spending rage has a 1.00% chance per rage spent to heal you for [1,500% of attack power]; Rank 1/1.
9. Impale(WoTLK talent): Increases critical strike damage bonus by 20%; Rank 2/2
10. Deep Wounds: Striking an enemy with Mortal Strike, Execute and Bladestorm inflicts deep wounds dealing 48% of your weapon’s average over 6 seconds; Rank 3/3
11. Seasoned Soldier: Your auto attack criticals generate 30% more rage and increases your damage by 3%; Rank 3/3.
12. One Against Many: Cleave increases damage dealt by your next Whirlwind by 4% for each target hit; Rank 2/4(Rank 4 8%)
13. Fervor For Battle: Whirlwind does 5% increased damage, and Slams your primary target; Rank 0/2 (Rank 2 10% damage)
14. Death Sentence: Execute now has a 15 yard range, causing you to charge to targets when used; Rank 1.
15. War Banner: You throw down a war banner at your feet, rallying allies. Increases movement speed by 30% and reduces the duration of all incoming crowd control effects by 50% to all allies within 30 yards of war banner. Lasts 15 seconds; Rank 1.
16. Avatar: Transform into a colossus for 20 seconds, causing you to deal 20% increased damage and removing all roots and snares.
Generates 20 rage; Rank 1
17. Second Wind: Whenever you are struck by a stun or immobilize effect, generate 20 rage and 10% of your total health over 10 seconds; Rank 2/2
18. Shattered Defenses: After using Colossus Smash/Warbreaker, your next Mortal Strike deals 50% increased damage; Rank 1.
19. Ravager: Throw a
whirling weapon at the target location that inflicts [7 * (44.226% of Attack power)] damage to all enemies within 8 yards over 5.9 seconds.
Generated 7 rage each time it deals damage; Rank 0/1
20. Crushing Assault: Increases damage dealt by slam by 10%. In addition, Your melee abilities have a chance to increase the damage of your next Slam by 4638 and reduce its Rage cost by 20; Rank 2/2.
21. Deathblow: Execute is now usable on targets below 35%, and increases the critical strike chance of Execute by 15%; Rank 3/3
22. Corrupted Blood of Zakajz: Your attacks cause an additional 20% shadow damage for 5 seconds after using Colossus Smash/Warbreaker; Rank 3/3.
23. Warbreaker: Smash the ground and shatter the armor of all enemies within 8 yds, dealing (150% of Attack power) Physical damage and increasing damage you deal to them by 30% for 10 sec; Rank 1/1.
24. Double Time: Increases maximum number of charges on Charge by 1, and reduces it’s cooldown by 3 seconds; Rank 1/1.
25. Executioner’s Precision: Execute causes the target to take 75% more damage from your next Mortal Strike, Stacking up to 2 times; Rank 1/1.
26. Gathering Storm of Destruction: Reduces the cooldown of Bladestorm by 33%, and Bladestorm now also applies Mortal Wounds to all targets you hit. In addition While Bladestorming, every 0.8 seconds you gain 5% movement speed and 220 strength, stacking up to 6 times, lasts 6 seconds; Rank 1/1.
27. Sudden Death: Your melee attacks have 9% chance of making your next Execute cost no rage, be usable on any target regardless of their health, and deal damage as if you spent 40 Rage; Rank 3/3.
28. In For The Kill: Warbreaker increases your haste by 10%, or by 20% if any target is below 20% health. Lasts 10 seconds; Rank 1/1.
29. Dreadnaught: Overpower has 2 charges, and it increases the damage of your next Mortal Strike by an additional 10%; Rank 2/2.
30. Anger Management: Every 20 Rage you spend reduces the remaining cooldown on Warbreaker, Bladestorm and Avatar by 1 second; Rank 5/5.
31. Sharpen Blade: When activated, your next Mortal Strike will deal 15% increased damage and reduce healing taken by 50% for 6 seconds, Rank 1/1.

Thoughts, Comments?

my thought is this :using 1 cookier cutter build is soooooo much more fun ye ?

old talent trees were a joke - current talents are way better