So, item levels are getting spiked for no reason. Again.

[Mardux]

And so far that is actually one of the larger changes in raid design compared to what they have been doing both in TBC and Legion.

When SWP was released they also nerfed the previous raids - including removing attunements. In Legion as far as I recall there were raid-wide auras nerfing previous raid tiers, combined with the release of the next one.

However, this time, as far I recall, there hasn't been any major nerf to Uldir - except for the new items (and some of them are less useful in Uldir).

That seems like an improvement from Blizzard's side (assuming it is intentional). People tire of doing the same raid, and explicit general nerfs don't feel right. Thus a nerf of the previous tier makes little sense.

A few uldir bosses had some "hard nerfs" but they were mostly for mythic diff iirc. Uldir had "soft nerfs" though in the form of reorigination array.

[Osmeric]

A few uldir bosses had some "hard nerfs" but they were mostly for mythic diff iirc. Uldir had "soft nerfs" though in the form of reorigination array.

And also nerfing via -forged drops.

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I'm not sure ilvl padding works as a raid nerf.

Of course it works as a general process, although not every -forged drop will be an upgrade. If I have item X, and later I get a higher -forged version of item X, then of course that will be an upgrade.

The better criticism would be that it slows down over time, as higher -forged items are less and less likely to drop.

[niil945]

The better criticism would be that it slows down over time, as higher -forged items are less and less likely to drop.

Right, but only for that specific person. That's good for the whole group because it allows those who got bad titanforge luck to get passed items by those who don't need them as a raid tier sunsets. This in combination with the ilevel maximum means that everyone gets pushed slowly towards that maximum with reduced progression the closer you get, but the next raid tier doesn't require the old maximum to complete. It requires significantly less than that. Which means immediately upon entering a new tier, you jump into the hardest content you can do and get upgrades (big ones if the loot titanforges). It makes sure that there's always progression to be had but ensures that the min/max mentality doesn't drive people to insanity trying to itemlevel cap every slot because eventually the gains just aren't worth doing things like split runs or (even applied to M+) chain running for end of dungeon rewards infinitely. There's a line that's a little subjective as to where it sits, but it encourages people to step back at a point but if they go along to help others there's still a slight chance they could get something better than what they have. This is a very good thing as the min/max crowd has demonstrated over and over again that they'll engage in behaviors that are unhealthy for themselves personally and the game as a whole if there isn't some kind of limit put in place.

Edit: That was a rather longwinded way of saying that that's not a criticism. It's intentionally designed that way. They are fully aware of the ramifications to loot distribution as raid tiers transition from progression to farm. And while it's possible for someone not to like that specific design, saying "I don't like chocolate" isn't a criticism of chocolate.

[rohoz]

Right, but only for that specific person. That's good for the whole group because it allows those who got bad titanforge luck to get passed items by those who don't need them as a raid tier sunsets. This in combination with the ilevel maximum means that everyone gets pushed slowly towards that maximum with reduced progression the closer you get, but the next raid tier doesn't require the old maximum to complete. It requires significantly less than that. Which means immediately upon entering a new tier, you jump into the hardest content you can do and get upgrades (big ones if the loot titanforges). It makes sure that there's always progression to be had but ensures that the min/max mentality doesn't drive people to insanity trying to itemlevel cap every slot because eventually the gains just aren't worth doing things like split runs or (even applied to M+) chain running for end of dungeon rewards infinitely. There's a line that's a little subjective as to where it sits, but it encourages people to step back at a point but if they go along to help others there's still a slight chance they could get something better than what they have. This is a very good thing as the min/max crowd has demonstrated over and over again that they'll engage in behaviors that are unhealthy for themselves personally and the game as a whole if there isn't some kind of limit put in place.

Edit: That was a rather longwinded way of saying that that's not a criticism. It's intentionally designed that way. They are fully aware of the ramifications to loot distribution as raid tiers transition from progression to farm. And while it's possible for someone not to like that specific design, saying "I don't like chocolate" isn't a criticism of chocolate.

I wish people would understand that bolded line.

ugh. "I do not like thing" isn't feedback that anyone can use.

[MalfLFT]

Welcome to World of WarCraft that has been like this for 15 years.

Lol, thats objectively a false statement. It has been like this for perhaps 10 years tops, but it has certainly gone crazy the last 2 or 3 expacs

[rohoz]

Lol, thats objectively a false statement. It has been like this for perhaps 10 years tops, but it has certainly gone crazy the last 2 or 3 expacs

I dunno, there was a similar explosion when you could get warlord pieces for tokens in vanilla.

[niil945]

Lol, thats objectively a false statement. It has been like this for perhaps 10 years tops, but it has certainly gone crazy the last 2 or 3 expacs

I'm in agreement with rohoz. The only way your claim that OneWay's statement is objectively false is true is if you ignore the honor farm in Classic. There have been catchup mechanisms in place during every expansion and in classic. Though I will agree, it's gotten more prolific over time. It used to be once or twice an expansion we'd see something like this. Timeless Isle. Broken Shore. Argus. In Wrath it happened when they introduced badge farm and the Icecrown dungeons around the release of Trial of the Crusader. I'm a little fuzzy on the timeline as it's been so long. Etc. I don't know how I feel about it happening between every single raid tier like we've had since the end of Nighthold.

[MalfLFT]

I dunno, there was a similar explosion when you could get warlord pieces for tokens in vanilla.

That was in the pre-patch... not remotely comparable, and the difference between warlord gear and greens was smaller than tier-to-tier in BFA.

[rohoz]

That was in the pre-patch... not remotely comparable, and the difference between warlord gear and greens was smaller than tier-to-tier in BFA.

No it fucking wasn't, because you could legit 2shot someone in greens if you had warlord gear.

[MalfLFT]

Pvp was just different back then and a lot more bursty in general. Look it up, the fact of the matter is that someone freshly dinged was only 50% weaker statwise than someone in full naxx. Its not really debateable, it's facts. The difference nowadays in 5 ilvls is a lot bigger than the difference between Mc and BWL in most cases.

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No it fucking wasn't, because you could legit 2shot someone in greens if you had warlord gear.

Pvp was just different back then and a lot more bursty in general. Look it up, the fact of the matter is that someone freshly dinged was only 50% weaker statwise than someone in full naxx. Its not really debateable, it's facts. The difference nowadays in 5 ilvls is a lot bigger than the difference between Mc and BWL in most cases.

[rohoz]

Pvp was just different back then and a lot more bursty in general. Look it up, the fact of the matter is that someone freshly dinged was only 50% weaker statwise than someone in full naxx. Its not really debateable, it's facts. The difference nowadays in 5 ilvls is a lot bigger than the difference between Mc and BWL in most cases.

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Pvp was just different back then and a lot more bursty in general. Look it up, the fact of the matter is that someone freshly dinged was only 50% weaker statwise than someone in full naxx. Its not really debateable, it's facts. The difference nowadays in 5 ilvls is a lot bigger than the difference between Mc and BWL in most cases.

Yeah this is nothing but hyperbole.
You're right, it's not debatable because you're speaking 100% bullshit.
50% weaker statwise is what they call a deliberate cherrypicking of information, because a fresh 60@ 2.3k hp vs a naxx geared player that hits for 2k with 4.6-5k hp is what the reality was.

[AlmightyGerkin]

I notice nowhere in there did you say that you were talking about the heroics only in the first 2 weeks of the release of the expansion. So what you're saying is I'm right?

Just so we are clear here, a poster said this:



And you responded with this:



He/she wasn't talking about the first 2 weeks of the expansion. They didn't even mention heroics. They talked about the expansion as a whole and how casual friendly it was and a number of completely different factors that showed it was casual friendly (many of those cited didn't even exist at the beginning of the expansion, they were introduced in later patches). You, you responded and pointed at BC heroics to demonstrate how BC was not casual friendly. I saw your stupid comment and jumped in and pointed out the only time it was hard was during the first 2 weeks before most people could actually do them due to level or ilvl. Then you try to pretend that that's the time you were talking about? They were too hard so they were nerfed 2 weeks in ... therefore it wasn't a casual friendly expansion? I mean that's your argument. That's why you cited heroic dungeons in the first place, to demonstrate that the expansion was not casual friendly. Jesus do you even read the vomit you regurgitate. Very clearly you're the one that has the ego issue here and are incapable of admitting when you are wrong. Ahahahahaha. What ridiculous goalpost shifting are you going to go with next? I'll be here with my popcorn.

Back to the self proclaim victory and being sad. Moment i insult you flip out and claim i have an ego problem when you only need to look in the mirror. Heroics in burning crusade were still far more difficult than wotlk heroics and that when blizzard had to adjust them cause a lot of players not all could not do them. Gear was there but player had to grind them out a lot harder than wotlk were over time thanks to the lfg dungeon made them much easier to acquire. Just stop with this self fulfillment. Its evidence you’re just a prick and to assume you insult others cuase they dont have xxx achievement or rating in arena/bgs.

[rhorle]

Heroics in burning crusade were still far more difficult than wotlk heroics and that when blizzard had to adjust them cause a lot of players not all could not do them.

They also adjusted Wotlk dungeons several times as well. The ICC dungeons were really hard for a lot of groups as well. TBC dungeons were only hard towards the start of the expansion. But with Badges and Arena (before rating requirements for gear) it made them easy. Again there is a clear reason why you could find tons of groups for Mechanaar. It was super easy and super fast for badges. Heck a lot of people avoided occulus because it was "too hard" for pugs/randoms.

A lot of people complained Cata dungeons were to hard at launch as well. Blizzard changed them but they really weren't that hard. I hit cap with in the first few days and all of those first groups cleared them with ease. Why? Because it was mostly skilled players. Once the unskilled hit cap groups had issues. TBC did not have objectively hard instances. There were a few that had mechanics or trash distribution that made them harder. Like Shattered halls.

A pally trivialized Heroic Shattered halls making it easy compared to a non pally tank. Because the AoE threat/tanking of paladins was overpowered for that instance. Gear was easy to acquire in Wotlk before LFG tool was added. Just as gear was easy to obtain the further you got into TBC with Arena epics, Badge epics, and IQD (yes end of expansion catch up).

It is a sign of changing philosophy that started in TBC.

[mojojojo202]

They sold the item level squish on the idea that ilvl 1000 was ridiculous, after half an expansion we are closing in on 425 with a least 1 raid tier, possibly 2 to go.

It's kind of exactly the same thing that happened with the last squish, doing just allowed them to get away with even more ridiculous bloat because 'fuck it, we'll just squish everything again'.

[predasmoke3]

Welcome to World of WarCraft that has been like this for 15 years.

"Welcome to the world of warcraft that has been like this since mop which is when i started playing"

Fixed that for you

[rhorle]

"Welcome to the world of warcraft that has been like this since mop which is when i started playing"

Fixed that for you

WoW started with the idea of a game more casual then Everquest. As the industry changed so did WoW to keep casual as a focus. The meaning of casual has changed over the years as things usually do. WoW didn't start becoming casual with Mists. If you actually played the game prior to that you would know this. So before trying to insult players or "fix" things at least make sure you are correct.

[Daffan]

WoW started with the idea of a game more casual then Everquest. As the industry changed so did WoW to keep casual as a focus. The meaning of casual has changed over the years as things usually do. WoW didn't start becoming casual with Mists. If you actually played the game prior to that you would know this. So before trying to insult players or "fix" things at least make sure you are correct.

But none of what your saying has anything to do with his reply and the guy he replied too.

[rhorle]

But none of what your saying has anything to do with his reply and the guy he replied too.

They game hasn't been casual since MoP. So the fix is wrong. Pointing out times before MoP where the game had casual elements directly has to do with a claim that MoP was when the game started to become casual. Are all of you just alt accounts of each other to come and say stupid things in defense? If someone is making a claim about the casual nature of WoW and when it became casual then discussing casual parts of WoW are related.

[Nestoras]

"Right now catch up is gearing".
That is the truth very well explained by Preach.
People here are too butthurt trying to prove to people also playing the game that this was always the case.
It wasn't, guys it just wasn't, deal with it, get over it.

[niil945]

"Right now catch up is gearing".
That is the truth very well explained by Preach.
People here are too butthurt trying to prove to people also playing the game that this was always the case.
It wasn't, guys it just wasn't, deal with it, get over it.

Except it always has been. It's just been different methodology and different pacing of that catch up. We have never been forced to progress through specific ilvl ranges and content. You could always be carried into, say, BWL in complete trash gear and get geared up. No one made you farm dungeons and complete Molten Core before you were allowed to enter BWL or AQ or Naxx. You claiming 'it just wasn't, deal with it, get over it' is idiotic. Many of us have played it. We know exactly what the experience was like. We remember the catch up mechanisms. We remember when they happened. Hell, I remember people farming pvp for easy gear rewards before AQ was even available. I know the timing precisely because we had BWL on farm and we kicked half the raid that decided to stay in battlegrounds than show up to the raid because they'd rather just pvp for easy guaranteed honor gear. It was a glorious day of gaming because we proceeded to clear the raid with half a raid anyways and had a blast doing it.

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Well, you didn't fix it quite well. It should have been:

""Welcome to the world of warcraft that has been like this since vanilla which is when i started playing"

Yeah, he must be one of those, "back in my day we walked uphill to school both ways in 10 feet of snow!" Some people have to lie about how hard things were in the past because the things they did are the only "accomplishments" they have to hold onto and use to justify why they are better than other people. Or whatever reason they feel the need to be hyperbolic about how much easier things are today than compared to when they did it. Either way, just deal with them exactly the way we deal with dementia patients. Nod, smile, coddle their fragile egos, laugh at them as you walk away.