Blizzard is loading up on player vs AI / player + AI mechanics

[therealstegblob]

I don't think it should apply to heroic, much less mythic difficulties but enough followers to pad a raid group out to 10 for a normal difficulty raid would allow them to make LFR an historical artifact in an instant.

No it wouldn't? The point of LFR is to enter into an entirely pre-made group of people and do an easier version of the content just 'so you can see it'. Letting people use buggy AI 'raid members' in normal raids wouldn't replace LFR at all.

If anything it'd just be a huge issue. The bots would never be very good replacements for real people, because they'd constantly go back and forth from being either too perfect (never fucking anything up) to screwing shit up because their AI is bugging out and they don't know what to do.

The folks who tend to loudly bellow that it will ruin the game are pretty much exactly the people I'm trying to avoid. There's too many of them and Blizzard refuses to really police them so this would be fine.

God it does not give me pause that you of all people think Blizzard needs to "police people" who don't agree with you, but jesus christ.

[MrExcelion]

I'm willing to bet if Trust goes over well in FFXIV Shadowbringers this year Blizzard will steal the idea of "Followers as AI Party Members" for 9.0.

https://www.thesixthaxis.com/2018/11...to-the-mmorpg/

Just reading about it now, interesting. Looks like they don't want you to get into the higher levels/difficulty of content with it, but yeah it is just an initial rollout. At the same time they'd be shooting themselves in the foot to make them better than humans. Does seem to be a time and place for it though. Bodyguards worked out alright in WoD and Legion.

Muffinus is really big on implementing AI into the game and he appears to have been promoted to an overseer role now

[MoanaLisa]

God it does not give me pause that you of all people think Blizzard needs to "police people" who don't agree with you, but jesus christ.

I'd be happy enough if they just police those who break their rules.

I've opted out of the "random" community at any rate. I simply don't play with people I don't know. It's not introversion or anything like that. I socialize with people I know.

And I do think the opportunity to run a normal difficulty raid with a few friends friends or whatever combination you want to put together with NPC's filling out the group would put a stake in LFR. That would be fine with me. If we haven't proven by now that a 25-person random group isn't "epic" on its own (Blizzard's word) then I suppose we never will. It would be a better way to see the content at any rate either solo or with friends. Go your own speed or just have a social beer run is a potentially much better experience for people than LFR ever will be. It also more or less takes care of the gear issue as rewards would be normal-level gear maybe -5 ilevels which some people would bitch about but would be obsolete for anything higher than normal almost the same reset.

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https://www.thesixthaxis.com/2018/11...to-the-mmorpg/

Just reading about it now, interesting. Looks like they don't want you to get into the higher levels/difficulty of content with it, but yeah it is just an initial rollout. At the same time they'd be shooting themselves in the foot to make them better than humans. Does seem to be a time and place for it though. Bodyguards worked out alright in WoD and Legion.

Muffinus is really big on implementing AI into the game and he appears to have been promoted to an overseer role now

That's interesting. Yeah, Blizzard will be on board with that if it has any success at all. Despite the rumblings about what an MMO is or isn't most people playing wouldn't mind having solo or very small group options for content.

[Dialout]

Pretty sure a new brawl mode is not indicative of Blizzard "loading up" on player vs. AI / Player vs. AI mechanics.

Oh.

Spoiler alert!

LITERALLY EVERYTHING IN THE GAME ASIDE FROM PVP IS PLAYER VS. AI.

You're either a shit troll (or not, because I took the bait... HALP!) or incredibly daft.

[therealstegblob]

And I do think the opportunity to run a normal difficulty raid with a few friends friends or whatever combination you want to put together with NPC's filling out the group would put a stake in LFR.

No, it wouldn't. I mean if you could hypothetically go into a raid solo and have 9 AI to just do the content for you, I dunno. Though that would actually be really, really kind of ridiculous.

At any rate, assuming you couldn't go into normal raid solo, LFR would still be there for people who have no friends to raid with or who literally couldn't deal with even normal difficulty without the AI actually completely carrying them.

[MoanaLisa]

No, it wouldn't. I mean if you could hypothetically go into a raid solo and have 9 AI to just do the content for you, I dunno. Though that would actually be really, really kind of ridiculous.

But you're OK with people just seeing the raid? What's the difference? I simply don't see how those two positions don't contradict each other. These are the same players that never get past LFR. It's not like they're going to suddenly infest heroic raid pugs any more than now.

[therealstegblob]

LITERALLY EVERYTHING IN THE GAME ASIDE FROM PVP IS PLAYER VS. AI.

You're either a shit troll (or not, because I took the bait... HALP!) or incredibly daft.

I get where you're coming from and I do mostly agree but there IS a distinction, I believe, in "raid boss AI" and "these are meant to simulate other players AI", even if it's just in how the AI is being used/shown to the player.

I mean I doubt Blizzard would feel the need to do this for at least a very long time, but it's possible they could introduce DUNGEON AI COMPANIONZ that help you do content and stuff.

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But you're OK with people just seeing the raid? What's the difference? I simply don't see how those two positions don't contradict each other. These are the same players that never get past LFR. It's not like they're going to suddenly infest heroic raid pugs any more than now.

I'm not saying they're going to 'infest heroic pugs' or whatever else you want to put into my mouth. I'm just saying that there's a difference between "You can queue and get into a premade group and do a more pug-friendly/easier version of the fights just to experience the raid" and a hypothetical "you can enter a raid solo on normal mode and play with 9 AI". It's something I feel would actually start kind of devaluing what 'raiding' is supposed to be.

[MoanaLisa]

I'm not saying they're going to 'infest heroic pugs' or whatever else you want to put into my mouth. I'm just saying that there's a difference between "You can queue and get into a premade group and do a more pug-friendly/easier version of the fights just to experience the raid" and a hypothetical
"you can enter a raid solo on normal mode and play with 9 AI". It's something I feel would actually start kind of devaluing what 'raiding' is supposed to be.

Relax. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm trying to make the case that this wouldn't be any more harmful than LFR to higher levels of raiding. It might give the small percentage of players who for whatever reason want to have a way to practice raiding or just screw around with a few of their friends a reason to do something about it rather than stand at the back of 25 players and try to figure out what they're supposed to be doing while hoping 24 other people don't notice them or attempt to queue up for a pug. I'm stunned that you think this is devaluing raiding and LFR apparently isn't.

[therealstegblob]

Relax. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm trying to make the case that this wouldn't be any more harmful than LFR to higher levels of raiding. It might give the small percentage of players who for whatever reason want to have a way to practice raiding or just screw around with a few of their friends a reason to do something about it rather than stand at the back of 25 players and try to figure out what they're supposed to be doing while hoping 24 other people don't notice them or attempt to queue up for a pug. I'm stunned that you think this is devaluing raiding and LFR apparently isn't.

A player queuing by themselves and letting 9 AI do the fight for them is somehow better than a guy AFKing in LFR?

I'm not concerned about what this would do for raids at a higher level. Currently, buying carries through Heroic Raids does nothing to harm the Mythic Raiding community. So being able to go into 10 man normal with only 4 real players is obviously not going to hurt higher levels of raiding either.

It's that even though LFR is "handhold mode", at least you have to do the fights. If anything, I'd agree if normal mode raids (or even Heroic I guess) could flex down to as low as, say, 7 or even 6 people. I don't think AI needs to be there, for a number of technical issues and for the fact that I think it would really not fit with what raiding is supposed to be in WoW. Even if you do LFR with 24 strangers and say nothing and do really bad DPS, at least they're other real people and not just AI, even if you could argue it's almost the same thing already anyways.

[FelPlague]

A lot of systems are now getting automated via player vs AI mechanics.

1. A new version of a battleground where you fight as a team of players vs an AI team is coming.
2. Followers are supposed to become super important in 8.2 per Taliesin's newest video.

I expect as the playerbase shrinks to nothing, they will add AI tanks, AI healers, and AI DPS to dungeon parties and raids to fill the gaps and keep the queues popping. We might end up with effectively solo dungeons, with 1 actual player and 4 AI. That will be the final version of WoW at its sunset, with very few players but technically you can run anything because AI will be there to make a full and complete instance. Maybe they will even add AI to the auction house so mats and stuff are available to buy.

The game will play itself.

1. its a brawl, and its simply blizz testing out their AI.
2. ok... and?

3. how is more intelligent and realistic Ai a bad thing?
how have you turned "we want to make the game better" into "The game is dying and this is proof"

was starcraft back in its broodwar days dying cause they made the Ai more dificult?

[Dialout]

I get where you're coming from and I do mostly agree but there IS a distinction, I believe, in "raid boss AI" and "these are meant to simulate other players AI", even if it's just in how the AI is being used/shown to the player.

I mean I doubt Blizzard would feel the need to do this for at least a very long time, but it's possible they could introduce DUNGEON AI COMPANIONZ that help you do content and stuff.

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I'm not saying they're going to 'infest heroic pugs' or whatever else you want to put into my mouth. I'm just saying that there's a difference between "You can queue and get into a premade group and do a more pug-friendly/easier version of the fights just to experience the raid" and a hypothetical "you can enter a raid solo on normal mode and play with 9 AI". It's something I feel would actually start kind of devaluing what 'raiding' is supposed to be.

Also, to potentially correct myself; I mentioned a brawl mode, but I'm not sure if it's a separate mode altogether for every unrated PvP mode, or a specific mode on its own. If it is the former, I can understand why they would implement it, assuming they do so with it being a *choice* and not just filling a shorted team with random AI units.

That said, from what I recall, it was a brawl mode. Meaning non-constant and, I think, could be kind of fun.

Apologies for any lack of info on my end. My all caps was not meant to be taken as SSSUUUPPPERRRRRAAAAAGE either hahaha.

tldr; I don't think it's something to worry about given that, as I said, the game is essentially player vs. AI. Obviously.

That said, with all their tinkering regarding Island Expedition enemy AI (which, aside from the AI opposing faction, seems non-existent) I could see them trying to implement the "enhanced" AI in other aspects of the game.

I don't think it's a means to an end in that they're concerned about a disappearing player base, however.

That won't happen in any threating way for a long, long time.

[FelPlague]

Did I miss a memo? What systems are now getting automated with AI?
I didn't think they did huge changes mid-expac?

Nothing, he is just making stuff up
Ai is not meant to replace players, just to "act" more like players, liek what we see in islands where they interupt spells, pull you in, combo you, will run away when low unless you yourself are low, will try to cc you and mine large amounts while your ccd...

etc

they are testing it for a BG
maybe this might solve some of the "long que times" horde have to find ally
and might introduce some more concepts, like warfronts that actually feel like an RTS and not just a moba with no enemy heros.

also the bodyguard thing is super cool, liek the system from WoD where you leveled and did quests to train them and unlock skills, but they will act more real.

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A player queuing by themselves and letting 9 AI do the fight for them is somehow better than a guy AFKing in LFR?

Yes because that 1 guy is just wasting his time and his time alone
while with the 9 other peopl;e he is wasting their time and making their runs take longer.

[MoanaLisa]

A player queuing by themselves and letting 9 AI do the fight for them is somehow better than a guy AFKing in LFR?

I didn't say it was better. It seems about the same to me. I think I did say that.

It's that even though LFR is "handhold mode", at least you have to do the fights.

Borrow some of the requirements from achievements and ramp them down much like training scenarios in Mists. You have to do X amount of damage/healing, you have to avoid some mechanics. If you're tanking you have to have threat on the proper enemy at the proper time. If they can script NPC's at that level they can script in a few checks to be sure the player is active. There's dozens of ways to insure that people aren't just standing around. If you're dead at the end of the fight, you don't get the reward. It's idealistic but it would be one way for Blizzard to actually move some people into that environment and give them some experience in it without the fear of embarrassing themselves or getting yelled at or abused. A few, a very few probably but maybe more than now, might get the bug and want to move on to something more rewarding. They might even join a guild or something. I don't know. I don't see how this is worse than now.

[therealstegblob]

Borrow some of the requirements from achievements and ramp them down much like training scenarios in Mists. You have to do X amount of damage/healing, you have to avoid some mechanics. If you're tanking you have to have threat on the proper enemy at the proper time. If they can script NPC's at that level they can script in a few checks to be sure the player is active. There's dozens of ways to insure that people aren't just standing around. If you're dead at the end of the fight, you don't get the reward. It's idealistic but it would be one way for Blizzard to actually move some people into that environment and give them some experience in it without the fear of embarrassing themselves or getting yelled at or abused. A few, a very few probably but maybe more than now, might get the bug and want to move on to something more rewarding. They might even join a guild or something. I don't know. I don't see how this is worse than now.

Alternatively, instead of manhandling it so ridiculously just to make a wonky AI-mode work, why don't you just do LFR?

[matheney2k16]

Not going to happen, you might see AI as an enemy but pretty much never for dungeons/raids, like ever.
Too much trouble to implement even if they'd have very advanced AI. Their Ai will never be able to partner players for... many reasons.

Ff14 already does it

[Super Kami Dende]

Final Fantasy XIV AI Squadrons exist. Confirmed Ded game by OP.

[FelPlague]

I didn't say it was better. It seems about the same to me. I think I did say that.


Borrow some of the requirements from achievements and ramp them down much like training scenarios in Mists. You have to do X amount of damage/healing, you have to avoid some mechanics. If you're tanking you have to have threat on the proper enemy at the proper time. If they can script NPC's at that level they can script in a few checks to be sure the player is active. There's dozens of ways to insure that people aren't just standing around. If you're dead at the end of the fight, you don't get the reward. It's idealistic but it would be one way for Blizzard to actually move some people into that environment and give them some experience in it without the fear of embarrassing themselves or getting yelled at or abused. A few, a very few probably but maybe more than now, might get the bug and want to move on to something more rewarding. They might even join a guild or something. I don't know. I don't see how this is worse than now.

I still stand by that LFR should be training mode.
bosses should take like 10 minutes, mechanics should do as much as normal or heroic
but the mechanics should be much slower, the screen should show instructions
"The boss has changed seal, dps the adds!"
"The add is casting blinding light, turn away!"

and it should give loot only if you complete the objectives

"Go a fight without getting blinded: bracers"
"Get hit by wave of light less then 3 times in a fight: Chest"
"Interrupt a heal twice: Legs"

so on so forth.

[Sorrior]

I suggest looking up the ffxi and ffxiv trust system as well as the ffxiv squadrons. It might surprise you all what bliss could do with this

[f4ncybear]

Island Expedition bot plays better than your average LFG/LFR/Random BG resident. And bots talk more than those people as well.

[Razzako]

The idea of having to play BGs vs AI in random mode is not at all bad. Lets face the reality here: Random BGs alliance loses 9 out of 10 and Horde has massive queue times before they can join. This has been a reality for the past decade or so.

AI in dungeons. Wouldn't you love to join faster in the middle of the night when there is a clear shortage of tanks/healers?

I am not sure what followers will bring us in 8.2 but the way the game went up until now they had better make them do something useful for a change.

I would say that its far fetched to call it end of days for wow if they add AI. It can definitely bring some QoL changes in the game and short some problems that cant be otherwise solved mid expansion.

In the very long run rest assured that before we get further AI and solo dungeons they will have made wow one giant server first and then some.

For now we only have a few connected realms and many many servers that are sharded. Before even going to solo dungeons as you said we will go through more server mergers, connected guilds and other stuff that will forever prolong the game's longevity.

Safe to say wow has at least another 10-20 gears worth. Its just the BfA pessimism kicking in right now but we will get over it.

Why is it that almost always a ridiculous ass pull statistic is followed by 'let's face reality here' or something along those lines...