Warbringers Jaina: trying to rewrite events of the past

[cparle87]

It could also be a matter of pride. Also remember, Jaina usually freezes everyone before she teleports because otherwise someone might interrupt her spell.

And as @Irian said, this is not a retcon. We see the ghosts of the Kul Tirans sing that shanty and to their perspective they were betrayed. The Kul Tirans had no idea that the orcs were now at peace with the local Alliance. They just saw orcs and went to kill them, which is the natural response to an alien race bent on genocide that invades your world.

That is true, I hadn't thought of the freezing part. Was mass teleport interruptible in WC3? I never played it.

As for the whole "was it a retcon or not" subject I'm in agreement with you. People like to treat Jaina's every change in personality and belief as a retcon or her flipflopping when there are reasons for why she changes, even if it's back and forth on a subject.

[StaeleAilar]

I know its been out for a while now, and been talked about, but I found myself watching the animated short (if you can call it animation).



I get what this was meant to be implying here, that the kul tiran saw the death of daelin proudmoore and his fleet on kailimdor as a betrayal by Jaina, hence the song.

However, as a long time fan of series, who did play warcraft 3, something maybe a lot of current players might not have even done, this to be feels like the current writing team of blizzard are trying to gloss over events of the past and change characters outlook by outright forgoing those past events.

This animation showcases the idea that Daelin was a hero fighting and killing orcs who were all brutal savages, according to the song, and jaina was a traitor for not fighting beside him.

What ACTUALLY happened, was Daelin, the captain ahad of warcraft, cased the orcs who left the eastern kingdoms, trying to start a new life on kalimdor, and the dear admiral couldn't just let that be. The orcs weren't some red eyed demonic army, infact back then Jaina saw them as people instead of monsters, hence why she didn't stand with her father.

Yet this cinematic tries to make that out as if Jaina forgot all about it, like 'Oh, I was wrong, the orcs really were the bad guys, I should have stood with my one track minded father!"

This is what I hate about this kind of writing, its more character regression then progression.

I think you've missed the point. The point being that back then she had and was working with the orcs to try and broker a peace and save the world from constant conflict by helping them build Orgrimmar while she settled in Theramore. Her father came across and thought that the orcs were trying to attack her or would do so and he dismissed her claims as ramblings/naievity. And it was somewhat naievity.

The difference now is that she has up close and personally witnessed a tonne of the war crimes and the consequences that occured because of those crimes, on part of the horde, and largely feels responsible for them for all of those years she stood in defiance amongst the leaders of the alliance insisting that peace was able to be had and achieved.

Hence the whole "i'm listening now, father". She believes now that her father was right in what he had intended or what not (or at least did up until the seige of Dazar'alor - seems she's now backing off again which is confusing writing imo).

[Dastreus]

That's the whole point of that cinematic and later events in the end of the Jaina story-line where her mom gets her out of the shadow lands. That the Kul Tirans didn't know the actual story.

[huth]

That is true, I hadn't thought of the freezing part. Was mass teleport interruptible in WC3? I never played it.

As for the whole "was it a retcon or not" subject I'm in agreement with you. People like to treat Jaina's every change in personality and belief as a retcon or her flipflopping when there are reasons for why she changes, even if it's back and forth on a subject.

No, but it was also a different type of game that generally did not feature spell interrupts as a mechanic. I wouldn't take it as concrete evidence.

[cparle87]

No, but it was also a different type of game that generally did not feature spell interrupts as a mechanic. I wouldn't take it as concrete evidence.

The mmo I played before WoW had any cast cancel if you took any hit at all, so spell pushback in WoW actually made it look casual to me. IIRC there were spell locks and silencing abilities in WC3 to stop spellcasters, but my question was whether mass teleport was like hearthstone in that if you took any hit the spell was cancelled, which was why Jaina always froze hostiles before she tried to teleport.

[FuxieDK]

They just wanted to show jaina as super victim to ensure us that she indeed did nothing wrong, and everything bad in her life is someone else fault.

Super victim?

Strange way to spell "super villain"...

[VladlTutushkin]

Super victim?

Strange way to spell "super villain"...

Rich of you to call her a villain.

[Verdugo]

Rich of you to call her a villain.

To me she is a villain, to you a hero. Something wrong with that?

[VladlTutushkin]

To me she is a villain, to you a hero. Something wrong with that?

Its more like Horde cant realise that being a bunch of unrepentant murderers breeds enemies. Plus she is not a “villain” since so far she has not commited anything more then your usual wartime deeds.

[huth]

The mmo I played before WoW had any cast cancel if you took any hit at all, so spell pushback in WoW actually made it look casual to me. IIRC there were spell locks and silencing abilities in WC3 to stop spellcasters, but my question was whether mass teleport was like hearthstone in that if you took any hit the spell was cancelled, which was why Jaina always froze hostiles before she tried to teleport.

Given that none of the spells in WC3 even had a cast time to begin with... guess.

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Its more like Horde cant realise that being a bunch of unrepentant murderers breeds enemies. Plus she is not a “villain” since so far she has not commited anything more then your usual wartime deeds.

She's still a villain from the PoV of those opposed to her. Morals are always relative.

[VladlTutushkin]

Given that none of the spells in WC3 even had a cast time to begin with... guess.

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She's still a villain from the PoV of those opposed to her. Morals are always relative.

Not always. Sometimes things are way too obvious. Plus she was the one who argued for halting the advance because trolls were grieving.

[Mehrunes]

No you wouldnt, you would bitch even more than now.

Is more even physically possible when it comes to this?

[Verdugo]

Not always. Sometimes things are way too obvious. Plus she was the one who argued for halting the advance because trolls were grieving.

I mean we can ponder if someone that glares at you ominously after killing an allied monarch is villain to your side, but it would be futile.

[Grazrug]

Given that none of the spells in WC3 even had a cast time to begin with... guess.

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She's still a villain from the PoV of those opposed to her. Morals are always relative.

Number 1 example. All mass effect decisions.

[Mehrunes]

Some people forgetting that she is from Soutshore and her entire family and all friends who lived there got melted into green goo by the Forsaken.

Except her family was killed by the Old Horde in their attack on Southshore. Rogers explicitly mentioned how her family was buried at Southshore. And when it comes to Catacylsm war:
1. The Forsaken weren't interested in burying the humans;
2. There was no one else left to bury them;
3. There was likely nothing to bury them with the strain of Blight used at Southshore being so strong it melted stone.

Thrall and Rexxar are good orcs. That didn't stop Thrall from promoting Garrosh to Warchief, which indirectly led to the genocide of every living person on Theramore.

It led to what now?

In the end, the story simply shows that Jaina let her father die... for nothing. It's emphasizing the sheer level of betrayal she feels, both to her, and from her.

How is it a betrayal when Theramore being attacked was a natural and logical consequence of Jaina participating in the Alliance-Horde war against the Horde throughout Cata, with Alliance starting that war?

Even her working with Genn to attack Sylvanas was not the wrong call. Sylvanas was revealed to have been doing some very dark shit with Helya. Had Genn not intervened, she would have attacked the Alliance anyways... only with the power of a great deal more val'kyr at her back, and likely corrupting beyond any hope of redemption completely honorable (and innocent) soldiers from Odyn's army... which would have took away from the war effort against the Legion at best, and caused infighting at worse (which would have almost certainly led to the complete annihilation of Azeroth--we only won by a hair canonically IIRC).

You're speculating here and presenting it as fact, while ignoring what we know about Sylvanas and her plans. Had Sylvanas succeeded in Stormheim, she no longer would have a reason to fight the Alliance. She'd have immortal Forsaken and immortal herself. She wouldn't need to kill humans to replenish her numbers at that point. And the Alliance would no longer be a threat to her. So what motivation would she have to attack them? The lulz? Also, how would capturing Eyir affect the Valarjar in any way? And the Alliance doesn't get to justify Rogers retroactively. She attacked the Horde just because they were Horde. It had nothing to do with Helya, because the Alliance at the time of the attack didn't know neither who Helya was nor what Sylvanas was after.

Sylvanas herself never fully disclosed her goals in Stormheim so i assume even Horde wouldnt be up to such shit en masse. So in hindsight Genn was right. Plus we shall not forget “Shaw” Dreadlord stirring shit up and actually real documents from forsaken ship captain mentioning some “superweapon” in Stormheim that Sylvanas personally wanted.

The captain log didn't mention any super weapons. It mentioned power. And there's not an iota of proof that the Alliance version of the quest is canon or that it happened before Stormheim. Given how Genn mentions multiple times throughout Stormheim that he doesn't know what Sylvanas is after, there's proof it was not the case.

If she wanted Genn punished more she should have requested Anduin to do so, for “unprovoked” attack but she KNEW that Genn could easily use a LOT of evidences and even Eyir words (since Val’kyr is alive) to expose true goals of Sylvanas and her deal with Helya and then her ass would be whipped bloody. So instead of starting any real trial she just started an outrage while hastily obscuring and twisting facts and playing a victim as usual.

Except whatever Genn knew (which was little and even that he only learned moments before the final confrontation) doesn't magically make his first attack not unprovoked. Because, as mentioned above, what Genn learned about Sylvanas goals he learned only at the very end of the questline. Before that, by his own (repeated) admission he was clueless. And Genn's thoughts didn't exactly travel through time so that when he learned something about Sylvanas' plans at the end of the questline his past self ordering the attack on the Forsaken fleet also learned it.

Also, Anduin already knew Sylvanas was after Eyir. He still considered Genn to not only be in the wrong, but also that he broke his orders. So the only reason he didn't punish Genn is because he's either limp-wristed or a colossal hypocrite. And even if that was not the case and he learned that only after Sylvanas pressed the issue, why would Sylvanas' ass be whipped bloody? Alliance has no authority over the Horde. And since neither Helya nor Eyir are Alliance members, what Sylvanas deal with them was is out of Alliance's jurisdiction. Which not only means no ass-whooping, but also means that the attack was unprovoked, no matter what moral outrage the Alliance had about Sylvanas' actions.

[FuxieDK]

Rich of you to call her a villain.

She's been Warcraft's biggest villain for over a decade..

[Mehrunes]

As for the whole "was it a retcon or not" subject I'm in agreement with you. People like to treat Jaina's every change in personality and belief as a retcon or her flipflopping when there are reasons for why she changes, even if it's back and forth on a subject.

OK, what was the reason for her change from Isle of Thunder, where she accepted that the problem with the Horde lies in Garrosh and peace could be possible with him gone, to the point she peacefully parted with Blood Elves and SoO where she went "lul dismantle the Horde" immediately after Garrosh was deposed by combined force of Alliance and pro-Vol'jin Horde?

[Grazrug]

Except her family was killed by the Old Horde in their attack on Southshore. Rogers explicitly mentioned how her family was buried at Southshore. And when it comes to Catacylsm war:
1. The Forsaken weren't interested in burying the humans;
2. There was no one else left to bury them;
3. There was likely nothing to bury them with the strain of Blight used at Southshore being so strong it melted stone.




It led to what now?




How is it a betrayal when Theramore being attacked was a natural and logical consequence of Jaina participating in the Alliance-Horde war against the Horde throughout Cata, with Alliance starting that war?




You're speculating here and presenting it as fact, while ignoring what we know about Sylvanas and her plans. Had Sylvanas succeeded in Stormheim, she no longer would have a reason to fight the Alliance. She'd have immortal Forsaken and immortal herself. She wouldn't need to kill humans to replenish her numbers at that point. And the Alliance would no longer be a threat to her. So what motivation would she have to attack them? The lulz? Also, how would capturing Eyir affect the Valarjar in any way? And the Alliance doesn't get to justify Rogers retroactively. She attacked the Horde just because they were Horde. It had nothing to do with Helya, because the Alliance at the time of the attack didn't know neither who Helya was nor what Sylvanas was after.




The captain log didn't mention any super weapons. It mentioned power. And there's not an iota of proof that the Alliance version of the quest is canon or that it happened before Stormheim. Given how Genn mentions multiple times throughout Stormheim that he doesn't know what Sylvanas is after, there's proof it was not the case.




Except whatever Genn knew (which was little and even that he only learned moments before the final confrontation) doesn't magically make his first attack not unprovoked. Because, as mentioned above, what Genn learned about Sylvanas goals he learned only at the very end of the questline. Before that, by his own (repeated) admission he was clueless. And Genn's thoughts didn't exactly travel through time so that when he learned something about Sylvanas' plans at the end of the questline his past self ordering the attack on the Forsaken fleet also learned it.

Also, Anduin already knew Sylvanas was after Eyir. He still considered Genn to not only be in the wrong, but also that he broke his orders. So the only reason he didn't punish Genn is because he's either limp-wristed or a colossal hypocrite. And even if that was not the case and he learned that only after Sylvanas pressed the issue, why would Sylvanas' ass be whipped bloody? Alliance has no authority over the Horde. And since neither Helya nor Eyir are Alliance members, what Sylvanas deal with them was is out of Alliance's jurisdiction. Which not only means no ass-whooping, but also means that the attack was unprovoked, no matter what moral outrage the Alliance had about Sylvanas' actions.

Well yes. Eyir already has denied access to her halls against all official horde members who are not the PC. It's not like nothing happened about it. Unless alliance players keep pretending to be azeroths world police.

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OK, what was the reason for her change from Isle of Thunder, where she accepted that the problem with the Horde lies in Garrosh and peace could be possible with him gone, to the point she peacefully parted with Blood Elves and SoO where she went "lul dismantle the Horde" immediately after Garrosh was deposed by combined force of Alliance and pro-Vol'jin Horde?

It wasn't her alone. That two tongued black dragon whelp wrathion tells the horde PC about it afterward that he was backing the alliance the entire time. Just like with the Kirin Tor. Never trust those neutrals.

[cparle87]

OK, what was the reason for her change from Isle of Thunder, where she accepted that the problem with the Horde lies in Garrosh and peace could be possible with him gone, to the point she peacefully parted with Blood Elves and SoO where she went "lul dismantle the Horde" immediately after Garrosh was deposed by combined force of Alliance and pro-Vol'jin Horde?

When did she say anything of the sort? From what I remember of the chain she and Lor'themar were about to come to blows until Taran Zhu stepped in. Deciding not to fight with a lesser enemy (the rest of the Horde) in the face of two greater (Lei Shen and Garrosh) ones does not equal forgiving the lesser enemy and does not preclude you from going after lesser enemies as soon as the greater enemies are dealt with.

[Cannibalus]

Perspective hun.

In wc3, we never really saw the events from the point of view of the Kul'Tiran s.

Now you are seeing it. Whiles a lot of recasting happens in wow, the vast majority is merely telling the other sides perspective, a view that wasn't shared.

This happens a lot, and itndoesnt invalidate the original story either or the first view presented, it usually fleshed out what actually happened.

Sorry if you accepted one version as truth, you may be right, but you may feel differently once you see the perspective of the other side

Exactly this. This xpac they are toying around with perspectives. Even that song is originally a kultiran lullaby song that is then modified to reflect Jaina's betrayal. The kultirans saw the orcs that Thrall led as being as bloodthirsty as one ones riding dragons and setting their ships on fire, similar to the ones that killed her brother. This is why they are depicted with red fiery eyes, even though they were long cured of the fel curse. The kultirans are just biased simpletons and who can blame them? I know i would react the same when i would see the enemies retreating, the same enemies who killed loved ones, atleast in my eyes.