Terrorist Attack in Netherlands

[Pooti]

You've got this backwards.

I'm not saying you can't take issue with someone being a member or supporter of ISIS.

I'm saying you can't rationally take issue with someone being Muslim.

Equating those two, that is the false equivalence being made, here. It's particularly silly when there have been active terrorist groups within other faith groups, which you're ignoring.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I am just checking your position. Would you also then, think that it is totally irrational for people to not trust police?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's pretty easy to answer.

They're not all enacting the literal word of their holy book. Where as, some are.

So then it’s not the religion it’s how one interacts with said religion. If the religion it self was the problem and not ones interpretation it would be a much more wide spread isssue. No one but extremist follow the literal word of any religion so the question is why does this one have so many more extremist then other religions.

[Kumorii]

So then it’s not the religion it’s how one interacts with said religion. If the religion it self was the problem and not ones interpretation it would be a much more wide spread isssue. No one but extremist follow the literal word of any religion so the question is why does this one have so many more extremist then other religions.

That can be said for anything. It's pretty common for people to say right wing views brings terrorism in the form of white supremacy. They are however very small compared to all right wingers. So it's not the fault of right wingers ideoligy.

Problem I'm having with that statement is that it can be said for about anything. We know growing up a turmoiled upbringing often leads you to a bad path. I would say majority don't, so that means it's not the cause but people's reaction to it that causes it? Being a catalyst doesn't mean majority needs to be affected, especially when we are in nature pretty good contrary to popular belief.

To answer the last question. It's because I think Islamic religions are more valued to them and is also tied to politics in a larger scale than others. It also seems to be a correlation between religious countries that have it as basis for their politics and the lack of equality and progressive thinking.

Religion by its very nature is very resistant to change and update itself. Which is a problem since values needs to be changed. Most practioneers ofc do change, because most are good people. But others don't because the belief is so strong.

[Priestiality]

I have yet to see a christian going around killing people in the name of Christ, for example.

Except for:
Branch Davidians
Timothy McVeigh
Dylann Roof
Jim David Adkisson
Anders Breivek
Wade Michael Page
Paul Anthony Ciancia
Robert Lewis Dear, Jr.
James Alex Fields
Gregory A. Bush
Robert Gregory Bowers

And that's just in the past ~30 years or so. And only in the US.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That can be said for anything. It's pretty common for people to say right wing views brings terrorism in the form of white supremacy. They are however very small compared to all right wingers. So it's not the fault of right wingers ideoligy.

Problem I'm having with that statement is that it can be said for about anything. We know growing up a turmoiled upbringing often leads you to a bad path. I would say majority don't, so that means it's not the cause but people's reaction to it that causes it? Being a catalyst doesn't mean majority needs to be affected, especially when we are in nature pretty good contrary to popular belief.

To answer the last question. It's because I think Islamic religions are more valued to them and is also tied to politics in a larger scale than others. It also seems to be a correlation between religious countries that have it as basis for their politics and the lack of equality and progressive thinking.

Religion by its very nature is very resistant to change and update itself. Which is a problem since values needs to be changed. Most practioneers ofc do change, because most are good people. But others don't because the belief is so strong.

Yes you could say it about any thing that’s the point. Humans aren’t different no matter what they Believe some will be extremist while most will not.

As to Muslims valueing there beliefs more then most I don’t buy that or again there would be million of terrorist not thousands.

Politics and religion are also tied together every where. Bush for example said Jesus told him to go war and I’d bet there’s more extreme examples then that I’m not aware of. there is massive stock put into any religion on a political level everywhere.

Religion it self is also very resistant to change as you said but we live in a time where even if the religion it self isn’t changing the way people practice them are.

[Hilhen7]

Not this one. You can call people as bigots if they hate Muslims indiscriminately simply because of their religion, but not racists. Bigotry can take many forms. Racism is just one, and it's quite specific.

What's going on here, is a subset of people feel as if racism is a stronger term than bigotry and they want to adopt it for a wider use. I wouldn't do that. It dilutes actual racism and slowly makes it irrelevant since people always hear it thrown around with ease.

I guess it makes a slight difference if you call someone a bigot or a racists. But hey who really cares about the feelings of a bigot anyway?

Basically they are both terrible people.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I guess it makes a slight difference if you call someone a bigot or a racists. But hey who really cares about the feelings of a bigot anyway?

Basically they are both terrible people.

Given that bigots can still vote and effect change in country’s and there laws I’d say every one should care about the feelings of bigots as thoses feelings can lead to very real change.

[niztheundead87]

And racial discrimination, aka racism, includes your hatred towards Islam.


People?
Our far-right parties started to campaign around it the exact same day.
They almost had an orgasm at a terrorist attack two days before the election.

Both sides are stupid

[Kumorii]

Yes you could say it about any thing that’s the point. Humans aren’t different no matter what they Believe some will be extremist while most will not.

As to Muslims valueing there beliefs more then most I don’t buy that or again there would be million of terrorist not thousands.

Politics and religion are also tied together every where. Bush for example said Jesus told him to go war and I’d bet there’s more extreme examples then that I’m not aware of. there is massive stock put into any religion on a political level everywhere.

Religion it self is also very resistant to change as you said but we live in a time where even if the religion it self isn’t changing the way people practice them are.

Just so I understand you correctly...is there a cause for terrorism? I would say yes and by cause I don't mean 1 thing, but multiple things that enforces each other and I would say religion definitely is a big contributor to that as we can see where it happens and how less tolerant views tends to be from heavily religious countries.

Religion and politics is definitely not tied together everywhere. It's pretty non-existant in Scandinavia and I would argue Scandinavia are in general a pretty tolerant place. Latest religious talk we had was because of a person refused to shake hand with women due to faith. US uses religion obviously and it seems like the ones being the most intolerant happens to be religious. Cake incident for example. Their faith was the root for that debacle. Same goes with Middle East and their religion, by heavily I mean heavily. The different groups fighting each other are heavily segregated based on their beliefs and as I said, they value their faith more than others at least what I can tell from my traveling and knowing muslim families. Most are good regardless, but I definitely think it helps when you believe your faith so much that a group supporting that might be attractive, because of values you share which is the "one true faith" based on their interpretation.

Homophobia is something that is mostly coming from religious beliefs and even if people are more tolerant today they still think it's wrong, but as we both concluded, very few in contrast actually make violence due to it. Seeing it as wrong however does fuel the fire which could lead to violence in few as opposed to if they were taught it isn't wrong.

Seems like we have different experiences however and I doubt we will agree with each other.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Just so I understand you correctly...is there a cause for terrorism? I would say yes and by cause I don't mean 1 thing, but multiple things that enforces each other and I would say religion definitely is a big contributor to that as we can see where it happens and how less tolerant views tends to be from heavily religious countries.

Religion and politics is definitely not tied together everywhere. It's pretty non-existant in Scandinavia and I would argue Scandinavia are in general a pretty tolerant place. Latest religious talk we had was because of a person refused to shake hand with women due to faith. US uses religion obviously and it seems like the ones being the most intolerant happens to be religious. Cake incident for example. Their faith was the root for that debacle. Same goes with Middle East and their religion, by heavily I mean heavily. The different groups fighting each other are heavily segregated based on their beliefs and as I said, they value their faith more than others at least what I can tell from my traveling and knowing muslim families. Most are good regardless, but I definitely think it helps when you believe your faith so much that a group supporting that might be attractive, because of values you share which is the "one true faith" based on their interpretation.

Homophobia is something that is mostly coming from religious beliefs and even if people are more tolerant today they still think it's wrong, but as we both concluded, very few in contrast actually make violence due to it. Seeing it as wrong however does fuel the fire which could lead to violence in few as opposed to if they were taught it isn't wrong.

Seems like we have different experiences however and I doubt we will agree with each other.

I do agree that there is a cause for terrorism I just don’t agree on the role the religion it self plays, I think that if you put the same people in the same circumstances with only there base religion being different they would still end up as terrorist. This of course isn’t provable in any way though.

Mabye saying religion is tried into politics every where was a bit of a stretch on my part but I think we can both agree that religion is a big player in many country’s politics.

I also don’t give much credit to the one true fath thing as Muslims like any other religion are devided with in them selfs. Muslims for example make up most of the victims of terrorism and i highly doudt thoses community’s are just brushing it off because the terrorist are part of “the one true faith”.


As far as homophobia goes I agree comptly but that’s a problem with every religion and one which is thankfully becoming more acceptable atleast in the first world.

[Kumorii]

I do agree that there is a cause for terrorism I just don’t agree on the role the religion it self plays, I think that if you put the same people in the same circumstances with only there base religion being different they would still end up as terrorist. This of course isn’t provable in any way though.

Mabye saying religion is tried into politics every where was a bit of a stretch on my part but I think we can both agree that religion is a big player in many country’s politics.

I also don’t give much credit to the one true fath thing as Muslims like any other religion are devided with in them selfs. Muslims for example make up most of the victims of terrorism and i highly doudt thoses community’s are just brushing it off because the terrorist are part of “the one true faith”.

As far as homophobia goes I agree comptly but that’s a problem with every religion and one which is thankfully becoming more acceptable atleast in the first world.

My point wasn't that non terrorists would condone terrorists actions because they believe the same as they are. I'm saying they are using it as a justification for their actions because they are doing it for the one true faith which they hold themselves.
They are indeed very divided and that's why there are so many subgroups and some of them resort to violence due to those differences.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

My point wasn't that non terrorists would condone terrorists actions because they believe the same as they are. I'm saying they are using it as a justification for their actions because they are doing it for the one true faith which they hold themselves.
They are indeed very divided and that's why there are so many subgroups and some of them resort to violence due to those differences.

Ah my bad then.

I’d agree that they are using it as a justification but that really just comes around to rather you think they would find another justification or not. I think they would as there is never a lack of rerasons to resort to violence.

[Kumorii]

Ah my bad then.

I’d agree that they are using it as a justification but that really just comes around to rather you think they would find another justification or not. I think they would as there is never a lack of rerasons to resort to violence.

I don't buy that at all. People don't do things for the sake of doing them, they want to do X thing because of something. Belief and justification leads to actions not so much reversed unless people try to lie it away, but I don't think that's the case since no one actually gives them a pass due to their justification except themselves. Even if they lie there is another motive / belief / justification behind why they do what they do and then lie about it.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't buy that at all. People don't do things for the sake of doing them, they want to do X thing because of something. Belief and justification leads to actions not so much reversed unless people try to lie it away, but I don't think that's the case since no one actually gives them a pass due to their justification except themselves. Even if they lie there is another motive / belief / justification behind why they do what they do and then lie about it.

I don’t think they do it just for the sake of doing it I think they have other reasons to hold there views and that there religion is just a easy way for them to lie to them selfs to justify it. It might not seem like a big deal but lying to them selfs is likly more important then lying to other. If they were Christians or Jews or any other religion they could still find a way to lie to them selfs to make what they are doing ok we see it all the time when it comes to none Muslim violent crime/terror attacks.

[arandomuser]

right wingers " the mosque shooting happenedd because our governments dont do ANything about terrorism!" Meanwhile 600,000 dead civilians in iraq afghanistan and syria in the "war on terror" isnt enough to quench their bloodthirst they have to gun down worshippers. Hey, if worshipers peacefuly praying are "invaders" then what does that make the US military industrial complex that dropped more bombs in the middle east than any other war combined?

[Malaky]

There is no "both sides" when only one side does something.

Are you seriously pretending the left never goes crazy or does harmful stuff?

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And racial discrimination, aka racism, includes your hatred towards Islam.

What part of "Islam is not a race" you didn't get?

[Shadowferal]

Cultural, religious and ethnic discrimination is a thing.

[Martymark]

Both sides are stupid

One could argue neither side is stupid, in this way at least.
Right wing terrorists don't represent most right wing people.
Left wing terrorists don't represent most left wing people.

[Kraenen]

I wonder if you think religion it self is the main driver of conflict how would you explain the millions of Muslims who don’t take part in said conflict? Even in terrorist heavy country’s there are a metric ton of Muslims who are not terrorist.

I think (as I mentioned) that religion is sometimes the sole cause, and often a moderating or mediating influence (it makes things worse). Obviously different conflicts have different antecedents. When discussing terrorism we can talk about ideologies that influence terrorism. Certain ideologies (and religions) have different reinforcer and punisher mechanisms with regards to violent behavior. They teach different things and have different cultures. This will increase the probability of a distribution of overall aggregate different outcomes. This is obviously in opposition to anyone who says Islam has nothing to do with Islamic terrorism, which is wrong by default and wrong in the evidence. But it's also not proposing some claim that all Muslims are terrorists. This goes for white nationalism as well, for which people seem to have an easier time connecting to violence even though most white nationalists are not violent. It's an ideology that lends itself to promoting certain beliefs and therefore certain behavioral outcomes, just like Islam and any other.

But for some reason people ignore that the Islamic violence and Islamic political movements are specifically Islamic. Their content is Islamic. Their rhetoric is Islamic. Some I've argued with take this approach for white nationalism, for which it is so obvious its content is white supremacist, but do not do so for Islam. Notice we don't abstract away the specific content of the white supremacist ideology? It's taken at face value. I just want to take the approach I've described with every ideology. Others I've argued with seem blind to the fact that they have this one-sided approach in evaluating the data.

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Except for:
Branch Davidians
Timothy McVeigh
Dylann Roof
Jim David Adkisson
Anders Breivek
Wade Michael Page
Paul Anthony Ciancia
Robert Lewis Dear, Jr.
James Alex Fields
Gregory A. Bush
Robert Gregory Bowers

And that's just in the past ~30 years or so. And only in the US.

I wonder, at the time of those attacks, if people argued "they just did it because of geopolitics and conflict". It should be obvious their motivations included religious ones.

[Jingoism]

And to think they wanted Turkey to be part of the EU. What a wonderful idea with the schengen.