So mythic+

[Evelyn]

It is the privilege of a key holder.

I never said it wasn't. On the contrary, I acknowledged it is their right to be picky. Multiple times in fact.

Note that this 1370 player will have 2k players applying for his +18 key. The fact this player is just 1370 does not mean he has (or will) invite other 1.4k-ish players to his key.

Who are you arguing with? I used that person as an example that you can do higher level mythics without needing to have high io.

[Jastall]

now imagine you're a fury warrior lol. i havent gotten into a single group over +8. but im pushing my own key up and im now at +12. but every other melee dps do way much more damage and have better utility. fun times.

Utility yes, damage not really unless it's a good DH or Outlaw which will beat anyone. Fury's damage in M+ is well over the average, especially with Reaping which you can cheese to hell and back thanks to our burst AoE, its issue is lack of utility and relative squishiness.

But I've been picked in pugs for +13s and +14s as Fury semi-regularly (1.3k score). So at your levels it's not really the spec holding you back, even if I'll agree the tendency of people to go exclusively for meta comps in keys that absolutely do not require them whatsoever is endlessly annoying.

[Tojara]

People can use whatever metric they want when they pug groups.

If you really want to filter your groups 'properly' though (how I would do it anyway), is actually go to the site and literally look at their page. If people have done a few 14s of that particular dungeon in time and you're looking to find somebody suitable for a 15 or 16 of the same dungeon, I wouldn't mind taking them assuming a couple other things. One that somebody who is better doesn't come along, and two that they actually fit the composition. Popular to contrary belief, you can push pretty high with nearly any composition, although I would argue a rogue makes things a metric shit load easier, as does having a the ability to combat rez.

Until you're getting into super high keys, I wouldn't mind taking a chance on a key that's up to 2, maybe 3 higher than what a potential applicant has previously completed. That's assuming that they actually have a bit of experience in a lot of the other dungeons as well, and not just a couple, because that can spell out that they were completely carried as well. If I'm making a group for a 16 freehold and see that the person in question has a 14 freehold done in time, half a dozen 13-14s done, and like a 10 KR and 11 SoTS, I'd probably still take them.

Again, that's just me. It really depends on the role the applicant is fulfilling, and how long you're willing to wait. People really can't complain if somebody better comes along and scoops up a spot from them.

The system isn't perfect, but you will notice that the players you play with 'generally' get better as you climb up the ranks naturally. The only caveat is that some players can slip under the radar and actually be pretty bad despite their score, but that mostly has to do with affix imbalance. There are a few weeks that most people generally take off as the affixes are absolutely awful (this week is one of them, teeming/explosive/fortified being another).

[ID811717]

It's also silly to say do better than them when I am not in the position to be geared from mythic raiding and have friends from mythic raiding join me in a mythic+ run, so you can't just expect a casual mythic+ person do better than someone in that position when they don't have those advantages.

You don't need mythic raiding gear to perform in M+. You don't need help of mythic raiders to push your keys. Many top M+ players in the world only pug the 1st mythic boss weekly. Many of these players are either not in mythic raiding guilds, or never received any help from such guilds (for a start, there's little help you can possibly get from raiders that are not interested in pushing M+).

[Evelyn]

You don't need mythic raiding gear to perform in M+. You don't need help of mythic raiders to push your keys. Many top M+ players in the world only pug the 1st mythic boss weekly. Many of these players are either not in mythic raiding guilds, or never received any help from such guilds (for a start, there's little help you can possibly get from raiders that are not interested in pushing M+).

I never said people do. I'm saying players who are mythic raiders and group with other mythic raiders (like guildies for instance) are in a better position (due to gear and knowing the people they're playing with) to push keys, than say, some random who just pugs mythic+.

[ID811717]

Who are you arguing with? I used that person as an example that you can do higher level mythics without needing to have high io.

I am not arguing. You asked how does one explain a certain fact, and I attempted to explain it. And of course, I can point you to a dozen of Method raiders that are capable of being the best in the world in M+ despite having an M+ score close to 0. You, too, might be one of the players capable of timing +25 keys if only someone gave you a chance. But alas, I don't see a reason to give you a chance more than to that other player who timed a +14 key in a specific dungeon before.

Until you're getting into super high keys, I wouldn't mind taking a chance on a key that's up to 2, maybe 3 higher than what a potential applicant has previously completed. That's assuming that they actually have a bit of experience in a lot of the other dungeons as well, and not just a couple, because that can spell out that they were completely carried as well. If I'm making a group for a 16 freehold and see that the person in question has a 14 freehold done in time, half a dozen 13-14s done, and like a 10 KR and 11 SoTS, I'd probably still take them.

I did not spell this out above, but I'm completely on the same page with this. This is where your overall M+ experience comes in. If you are a player who timed everything on +16 but have that one dungeon stuck at like +13 depleted, I'll invite you to +15 without hesitation.

I never said people do. I'm saying players who are mythic raiders and group with other mythic raiders (like guildies for instance) are in a better position (due to gear and knowing the people they're playing with) to push keys, than say, some random who just pugs mythic+.

It is not silly to say that you can do better than mythic raiders. It is a defeatist mindset to assume that you are disadvantaged from the start. I have literally had multiple friends quit mythic raiding just to go hardcore in M+.

Cutting edge mythic raiders might get a better gear in the long run (toward the end of the tier). As a non-raider, you don't have to spend multiple evenings per week raiding, you can spam M+ for gear instead, you will reliably have better gear than mythic raiders if your overall time investment in the game is similar. High end mythic raiders might eventually get a slightly better gear, but in return you will have much more experience doing keys (in the time they had to spend raiding).

Being able to play M+ with your fellow raiders is nice, but it does not help when most of them have no time or motivation to push keys. It is very hard to combine both raiding and M+ at decent levels without having to play all evening, every evening. If you drop the raiding and drop the fellow raiders, you suddenly have full freedom to do M+ whenever you want, without being limited by raid times and without being limited by the availability of fellow raiders. It is suddenly all up to you -- if you have the mechanical game skills to push keys and if you have the basic social skills to befriend and stay in contact other good players you meet, the sky (or your play time) is the limit for how high you can push.

Pushing high keys is all about building your friend list in pugs, and then running M+ with these friends. Guilds are often only useful if you goal is to get help with weekly chest runs, not when you want to push key for fun.

[Evelyn]

I am not arguing. You asked how does one explain a certain fact, and I attempted to explain it. And of course, I can point you to a dozen of Method raiders that are capable of being the best in the world in M+ despite having an M+ score close to 0. You, too, might be one of the players capable of timing +25 keys if only someone gave you a chance. But alas, I don't see a reason to give you a chance more than to that other player who timed a +14 key in a specific dungeon before.



I did not spell this out above, but I'm completely on the same page with this. This is where your overall M+ experience comes in. If you are a player who timed everything on +16 but have that one dungeon stuck at like +13 depleted, I'll invite you to +15 without hesitation.



It is not silly to say that you can do better than mythic raiders. It is a defeatist mindset to assume that you are disadvantaged from the start. I have literally had multiple friends quit mythic raiding just to go hardcore in M+.

Cutting edge mythic raiders might get a better gear in the long run (toward the end of the tier). As a non-raider, you don't have to spend multiple evenings per week raiding, you can spam M+ for gear instead, you will reliably have better gear than mythic raiders if your overall time investment in the game is similar. High end mythic raiders might eventually get a slightly better gear, but in return you will have much more experience doing keys (in the time they had to spend raiding).

Being able to play M+ with your fellow raiders is nice, but it does not help when most of them have no time or motivation to push keys. It is very hard to combine both raiding and M+ at decent levels without having to play all evening, every evening. If you drop the raiding and drop the fellow raiders, you suddenly have full freedom to do M+ whenever you want, without being limited by raid times and without being limited by the availability of fellow raiders. It is suddenly all up to you -- if you have the mechanical game skills to push keys and if you have the basic social skills to befriend and stay in contact other good players you meet, the sky (or your play time) is the limit for how high you can push.

Pushing high keys is all about building your friend list in pugs, and then running M+ with these friends. Guilds are often only useful if you goal is to get help with weekly chest runs, not when you want to push key for fun.

I see what you are saying. I have tried to be social in pugs or after though usually people seem too timid or uninterested. Sometimes if it's a good run and people seem cool, I will give my real id and say "if you're looking for a healer, hit me up." but I haven't really received any requests. I actually did get one the other day from someone who didn't invite me because the owner of the key wanted someone else (this guy was leading the group), but he wanted to add me so that was cool. I was happy to hear he also has a alt that is a tank - as you know those are elusive creatures. I think it would be more fun/keep my interest to play with friendlies because pugs can be hell. Only wish people were more social.

[munkeyinorbit]

Bah you can't be more wrong.If he runs only 1 dungeon and has low rating because of it but has done the specific dungeon 100 of times and even on 20+++ then he clearly is good at it.How much rating he has won't matter at this point.If i see that he has 260 rating but have done the dungeon a lot of times and even on higher dificulty i will take him right away.Not everything is about RIO score.There are many more filters there.

That is your prerogative. Most normal people will just see 260 and ignore. No one wants to carry bads and that is what you are with a low IO.

[dragnipur]

But someone making a group, has the right to use whatever metric they see fit to compose that group.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes you are right.He can use what ever metric he wants.The problem is does this metric is the most useful one to determine someones experience in the specific dungeon the party leader wants to do.

That is your prerogative. Most normal people will just see 260 and ignore. No one wants to carry bads and that is what you are with a low IO.

The IO score is just an indicator like ilvl is.And ilvl right now is practically uselless.The same can be said for IO score the way it is sold and easily farmed 10/15 levels (depending from the season).It is coming closer to being useless as the ilvl is.Basing everything on IO score is stupid.

People can use whatever metric they want when they pug groups.

If you really want to filter your groups 'properly' though (how I would do it anyway), is actually go to the site and literally look at their page. If people have done a few 14s of that particular dungeon in time and you're looking to find somebody suitable for a 15 or 16 of the same dungeon, I wouldn't mind taking them assuming a couple other things. One that somebody who is better doesn't come along, and two that they actually fit the composition. Popular to contrary belief, you can push pretty high with nearly any composition, although I would argue a rogue makes things a metric shit load easier, as does having a the ability to combat rez.

Until you're getting into super high keys, I wouldn't mind taking a chance on a key that's up to 2, maybe 3 higher than what a potential applicant has previously completed. That's assuming that they actually have a bit of experience in a lot of the other dungeons as well, and not just a couple, because that can spell out that they were completely carried as well. If I'm making a group for a 16 freehold and see that the person in question has a 14 freehold done in time, half a dozen 13-14s done, and like a 10 KR and 11 SoTS, I'd probably still take them.

Again, that's just me. It really depends on the role the applicant is fulfilling, and how long you're willing to wait. People really can't complain if somebody better comes along and scoops up a spot from them.

The system isn't perfect, but you will notice that the players you play with 'generally' get better as you climb up the ranks naturally. The only caveat is that some players can slip under the radar and actually be pretty bad despite their score, but that mostly has to do with affix imbalance. There are a few weeks that most people generally take off as the affixes are absolutely awful (this week is one of them, teeming/explosive/fortified being another).

I agree with you.I do the same thing with my groups.I was doing it in Legion and it just became a habit to go to the site and look at persones profile.1st it was wowprogress now it is RIO.Nothing has really changed.

[chiddie]

Did you skip 3 years in high school too? Skipping from +3 to +6 is easy, from +12 to +15 not so much.

Imagine you have a +15 key (boosted by guildies/friends the week before). Now you want to time that in a pug... do you really want to tell me that you would invite 4 other guys you don't know who only timed +12 before?

Just a curiosity since I’m still into +9 bandwagon: apart from mobs and bosses doing more damage, what’s the difference between a +12 and a +15?

If my ilvl is adequate, why I should 100% fail a +15 having only done +12? Enemies dealing more damage simply means that party has to have more dps, it’s not that mechanics are different.

[elmoe420]

Raider.io and in particular the in-game add-on is extremely useful to help a group leader quickly understand the experience of a player applying to join the group. This saves me the time of having to cut and paste their name into a website like WoW armory and dig through to get the same information. Raider.io is simply an armory summary add-on and really nothing more. For me it serves as a truly valuable time saving mechanism when building groups.

The only thing that Raider.io (the add-on) is missing for dungeons which I'd really like to see added is an expansion of the 'Best for Dungeon' portion of the tooltip. Right now I can see the overall 'Best for Dungeon' run a player has ever done (e.g. ToS +12). However, I'd like to see the rest of the summary information in the tooltip ('Timed +10-14 Runs', 'Timed 15+ Runs', etc.) but broken down JUST for the dungeon that the group/queue is doing.

Basically, split the tooltip into two sections: Overall and Current Dungeon. Underneath both sections list Score, Best Run, Timed X Runs, etc. It is this latter section, the metrics for the 'Current Dungeon', that I find most useful in determining the players readiness to help the group complete its mission (either completion or pushing).

For raids, I'd like to see the option to get a full breakdown of kill counts per boss like you get for yourself but in every player's tooltip.

Overall though a great add-on and extremely useful in its primary goal of saving me the time of having to dig through the WoW armory website manually for every player that queues.

[potis]

Just a curiosity since I’m still into +9 bandwagon: apart from mobs and bosses doing more damage, what’s the difference between a +12 and a +15?

If my ilvl is adequate, why I should 100% fail a +15 having only done +12? Enemies dealing more damage simply means that party has to have more dps, it’s not that mechanics are different.

There is the difference of knowing what you can handle and the quite big difference in the HP pool of bosses, especially on Tyrannical.

There is a massive difference, for a healer, knowing what to do if the boss casts his "You are wiping if you dont play" ability 3 times instead of 2, cause usually after 2 you have no CDs left etc.

There is a massive difference in how many mobs a tank can take, from +12 to +15 its 56% extra damage on each mob and i think thats the basic, with Tyrannical/Fortified its actually more.

The main problem with higher keys was and always be , people that dont know what to press when to counter certain 100% wipes (In majority the DPS), and its the main reason people are saying "Just because you have 9/9 Mythic, doesnt mean shit for M+15", because its the truth, it doesnt matter if you pull 30k DPS if you dont know to press your reduction at the particular pack/moment to go from 30K dps to "Good job useless".

[Diliamlol]

Raider.io is a resume, which tells me what kind of experience you have in dungeons. If i have a +10 WM, I look if they have timed the dunegon in a +8ish, and the score. (Tons of people are buying 10+ carries which is why i look at score.) Its just like in real life. Would you hire a tutor with experience in the subject, great references and a good resume. Or hire someone you saw on the street looking for a job.

[quite an expert in wow]

From personal experience doing keys higher than a +10 with pugs is just a disaster. I have the same experience: people leave after 1 wipe, don't do their job (interrupt rotation) etc.

So if you want to torture yourself and keep playing with pugs, go ahead. I'd rather find a guild or a trusted group of players who I can play with on voice.

My raider.io score has never been an issue though.

[Diliamlol]

Bah you can't be more wrong.If he runs only 1 dungeon and has low rating because of it but has done the specific dungeon 100 of times and even on 20+++ then he clearly is good at it.How much rating he has won't matter at this point.If i see that he has 260 rating but have done the dungeon a lot of times and even on higher dificulty i will take him right away.Not everything is about RIO score.There are many more filters there.

What if that person bought a carry?? You would never know if they did or not.

[Evelyn]

The only thing that Raider.io (the add-on) is missing for dungeons which I'd really like to see added is an expansion of the 'Best for Dungeon' portion of the tooltip. Right now I can see the overall 'Best for Dungeon' run a player has ever done (e.g. ToS +12). However, I'd like to see the rest of the summary information in the tooltip ('Timed +10-14 Runs', 'Timed 15+ Runs', etc.) but broken down JUST for the dungeon that the group/queue is doing.

Good idea. If only it was as thorough as oq - do you remember that add-on for pvp? It would be nice if it showed how many mythic+ seasons they have participated in all together and if they've completed certain achievements. Maybe their achievement score. Just an idea. I'd love to be able to see how many dungeons a person has left prematurely (first person to leave) but that would probably be abused. Not sure what else it could tell but hopefully we get something more substantial in the near future to give people a better idea of who they are inviting to their group. I realize stuff can be bought so that will always be an issue. Anyways, that is my 2 cents.

[shyguybman]

I prefer someone who has timed at least a +14 before. It is possible that in +13 you took damage from double cyclone strike, took damage from Power Shot + Cleave, stood in Noxious Breath, and then clinched the kills on 3rd and 4th bosses with dry 0% mana remaining and entire group at 10% health. It is possible you failed on many other mechanics in +13, but survived them all and still 2-chested the key. It is possible that you are still not aware what are some of the deadly abilities in Temple. It is possible that the damage in +15 will get just over the top for your health pool, and you will start dying to each of these mechanics.

You guys got every excuse in the book to not invite someone. The difference between a 13 and a 15 is definitely NOT as drastic as you are making it out to be.

[dragnipur]

What if that person bought a carry?? You would never know if they did or not.

i can't see has he bought or not you are right.
What I can see is the difference in ilvl gear between him and his teamates.If it is to high it is some kind of indicator of him being boosted or not.

[Zenfoldor]

Reading this thread...yes I believe it is finally time for Blizzard to address raider.io.

[groparu]

I'll share my M+ experience and maybe it helps you a bit in your adventures as well.

I'm playing a frost mage and i'm at roughly 1550 rio score ( haven't bothered to push for the past 3 weeks).

I mostly pug, like 90% of the time and improved my score slowly, the key for me was to run with people close to my current score, who also needed to improve their own score for the current dungeon and key level, this way, most of the time I had pleasant runs, players being focused and timing the key.

I have timed 15s on 5 of the dungeons most times while finding a group of like minded players with witch after we timed a key we did a few more, some failed some successful but overall it was good.

My most unpleasant encounters were with players above 1.7k rio, these guys usually don't tolerate any mistakes a nd will leave after 1 wipe.

Prime example was with a rogue i grouped a few times while he had like 1.2k rio so i added him to friends list. After a few weeks he got to 1.7k ish and I asked him to join my group for a 16 boralus key, we had a nasty pull before first boss on a bolstering/sanguine week and wiped there, the guy says : Are you fuxing jokeing? - and left the group.....so yea, not cool at all.

I think eventually you can find a group of like minded people to run a couple of keys, even for your current game session and you can slowly improve score

Good luck with everything OP.