[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Independent voter]

Also, someone else pointed out: the Northern forces are, essentially, non-existent after this battle. With what army are they gonna lay siege to KLs?

Granted there's 2 Dragons, but unless they wanna make KLs a big green ball of flame, they're nullified.

Deny is going to go to all the other houses and rally them, all those Bywaters, Cargills, Ferrens, Harclays, Lantells, Overtons, Rygers, Tarlys, etc, etc. I defended the South from the Night King, Cerci didn't. I am the true queen.

[Grimbold21]

Daario will come save the day with a deus ex army that he's been building up since Dany left or some shit like that, calling it now.

While other people are proposing that the vale was not entirely present at WF and will send its remaining forces, as well as the Karstarks (lol). Or a even larger stretch is the Riverlands and Dorne lending assistant, which would be massive asspulls, but hey, who knows at this point.

[Cradyz]

While other people are proposing that the vale was not entirely present at WF and will send its remaining forces, as well as the Karstarks (lol). Or a even larger stretch is the Riverlands and Dorne lending assistant, which would be massive asspulls, but hey, who knows at this point.

Yeah, I can see it now. Lord Royce went down to get them which is why he wasn't in the episode. The riverlands are a burning wasteland, but Edmure has gathered all the lord-less frey soldiers to fight for Jon, thanks Arya! Yara will come with a thousand ships build with all the trees Euron didn't use for his thousand. Sam's sister unites all the reach lords for Queen Dany, then die with a whimper. What is a Dorne?

[lonely zergling]

Daario will come save the day with a deus ex army that he's been building up since Dany left or some shit like that, calling it now.

Why would they need big armies when arya can destroy kings landing by herself? Shes overpowered. No need for another "Lord of the Rings suprise army appears to save the day moment". Arya is like the cheat code car unit in age of empires that oneshots everything. Totally out of place and doesnt fit in the story but it exists.

[Raelbo]

- Ever since the dothraki were introduced, people in the show and us, the viewers, have asked themselves "What will they do if they win the war? They can't rape and pillage in Dany's new utopia. To solve this issue, the writers decided to solve this issue by having the cavalry charge headfirst into the enemy and just be killed off. Despite it goes against any sane military strategy, and we know that the character Tyrion and several others in the gang are supposed to be intelligent strategists. This character trait was abandonded so the writers could solve a story problem.

And yet what the Dothraki did was completely in character. They are impulsive, ill-disciplined and fight for the pleasure of fighting. In a different context their strategy might have worked (for example against the Lannister army) and even though a good strategist would have realised the risks, I doubt that any commander could have held them back.

There are a million other ways that the showwriters could have solved the "Dothraki problem". This one at least made some sense.

- The thing that made GoT special when it was based on GRRMs work was that no character was safe.

False.

Jon Snow was always safe
Daenerys was always safe
Tyrion was always safe
Sansa was always safe
Arya was always safe
Bran was always safe
Cersei was always safe
Jaime was always safe

(note: some of them may not be safe anymore, but it's irrelevant because they all made it to the end of the story)

The thing that made GoT special was the way in which the storytellers (both in the book and the show) used the art of misdirection to obfuscate who was safe and who wasn't.

We're lulled into thinking that Ned, Catelyn and Robb Stark were going to be safe based on how we, the audience, have been conditioned to view the obvious protaganists upon whom the spotlight shines in contemporary storytelling. The reason stories are told that way is because that's how audiences connect to the story - through following characters within the story. In GoT those characters we're meant to be investing in were still there from the beginning, they were just downplayed until the later acts in the story.

Why did Beric die? Cause the writers know "someone's got to die" so they decided he was no longer impactful. No one lived or died because of what they did, they lived or died because the writers pulled the strings behind the scenes. GRRM never did that.

Beric should have died 6 times already. The only reason he was still alive at this point was to protect Arya at the critical moment.

- Remember the abyssmal storyline where the Avengers of Ice and Fire ventured beyond the wall? They held their own against the entire undead army for a pretty long while. They were ~10 people. Now an army of tens of thousands is obliterated within minutes. The power of the undead army is not consistent, it is used as a plot device.

You're right in that there is an apparent inconsistency. But that inconsistency isn't in "The Long Night", it's in "Beyond the Wall".

Now I suppose one could take the view that this apparent inconsistency is just bad writing. But I reckon it's not. There is absolutely no way that Jon and co should have, at all, survived that assault. No, it was a trap. A trap that worked perfectly, the intention of which was entirely to lure the dragons so that the Night King could slay them and use them to bring down the wall.

It's the same idea as Star Wars: A New Hope where Darth Vader let's the Millenium Falcon escape the Death Star with Princess Leia.

- How did Arya kill the NK? We saw her power against he zombies earlier in the episode, sure she fought well against them but she has no magic tricks to use against them. And then when the NK is surrounded by hundreds of zombies and his generals, she somehow manages to sneak past them (with powers she demonstrably did not have mere 20 minutes earlier) and Mortal Kombat jump the NK and kill him? It's cheap. It's a cop out. They didn't know how to setup the kill, so they didn't even try to make it realistic.

Arya is stealthy and Winterfell is her home. And if you've looked at the godswood before, it's a small forest. She most likely moved through the trees like a cat. The whole point of the shot was to have her appearing literally out of nowhere so as to replicate the element of surprise for the NK - inasmuch as that can be accomplished given that we pretty much know that Arya is set up to make the kill.

IMO the scene worked just fine. I thought the final switch was a nice touch - you see Arya appear, think she's got him, but then he catches her, demonstrating that he's just that powerful. It's like the red wedding or Oberyn all over again as she drops the knife. But then it's in her free hand and she takes the kill.

- The whole plan. Aren't some of the worlds greatest minds gathered in this group of fighters against the dead? Was really the plan all along just to make a final stand and all die? And then whops someone luckily got the kill. They could have done so much more with it. Of course the NK would walk up to Bran when he felt he had won, but the heroes could have been aware of this. They could have constructed a plan that required enormous sacrifice to draw him out and kill him, but that didn't happen. They had no plan, they just died and died and died and then they won through luck (read; through the power or script writing).

The had very little time. They didn't have enough knowledge of their enemy. Their plan was basically to bring the greatest possible army to the fight and hope it's enough to win. Because if they can't, then it's tickets for humanity. It's pretty clear once the fighting starts that they completely underestimated the ability of the undead horde to overwhelm through sheer numbers.

BTW, the reason they didn't have time to actually plan is because they've all spent the last 7 years fighting over the iron throne and ignoring the growing threat from the north.

Also, they didn't win by pure luck. In case you haven't cottoned on as yet, there are larger forces at play here. The lord of light has been involved for years setting up contingencies to ensure that the Night King dies. And the many faced god is driving Arya. Yes, the show doesn't delve into what the gods' angle on all this is, and IMO that's fine. All that is necessary for us as the audience to know is that, in Westeros, there are ancient gods that are real, powerful, and have some kind of vested interest in humanity.

Some of us complain because it has now become a generic fantasy movie. It didn't used to be, now it is.

Or maybe some people just like to, or feel some compulsion to complain? That's at least how it comes across to someone like me.

[infinitemeridian]

I wish people would stop sucking Arya's dick already. She has always been one of the worst tier-1 characters, even in the books. The night king is the culmination of Jon Snow's story (or at least, more so than fucking Arya). What is the point of Bran's character at this point? He hasn't done anything interesting since like season 5, when they decided to kill off Hodor instead of having him perma-worg into Hodor (as I predict will happen in the book).

I really don't understand how each and every episode continues to be worse than the one before it.

[Grimbold21]

@Raelbo all of those characters have had things happened to them that literally made the readers question their safety. I mean, even though it was theorized to death, to the point that it was a given, prior to the show, Jon literally died.

The only ones that we truly knew were safe was Tyrion, cause that GRRM's favorite and - I think - he said he wont kill him and Arya cause of that joke of his wife divorcing him if he kills her.

[Varodoc]

I'm trying to understand the writers' thought process. What made them think that Cersei and her crazy boyfriend would make for a better final boss than the Night King?

[Cradyz]

I'm trying to understand the writers' thought process. What made them think that Cersei and her crazy boyfriend would make for a better final boss than the Night King?

Cuz it's called a game of THRONES. The show is about the politics to get the iron throne duh.

- Reddit

[infinitemeridian]

The politics aspects of the series have always been vastly more interesting than the undead, even in the books.

[Raelbo]

@Raelbo all of those characters have had things happened to them that literally made the readers question their safety. I mean, even though it was theorized to death, to the point that it was a given, prior to the show, Jon literally died.

True. The audience were always kept guessing. But the storyteller always knew who was safe, right from the beginning. I have watched the entire series again from the start just before season 8. They dropped very clear hints right at the start to watch Jon Snow, that he was important, all the while telling us that Ned and Robb were far more important.

I think the whole point of Jon being resurrected was to show us that Jon's fate was not just down to luck like most other people. The gods had an active interest in keeping him alive for their grand plan (the continuation of human life) and would even bring him back to life if necessary. Just like Beric and Melisandre, both of whom are alive entirely due to divine intervention, at least until they have served their purpose.

An interesting implication of this is that Jon is now no longer necessarily safe. Or at least he probably no longer has divine protection. He needed to be alive in order to ensure the survival of mankind, which is kinda necessary for the gods (what is the point in being a god if there is no one to worship you?). Now that the big threat is gone, the gods shouldn't really care whether he lives or dies.

[Kazlofski]

Cuz it's called a game of THRONES. The show is about the politics to get the iron throne duh.

- Reddit

Hate that response, personally. After beating death itself and saving humanity, who cares about some pity squabbling over a throne?

Doesn't have nearly as much consequence as potentially losing to the Night King.

It's like beating Sargeras together, united and then going back to fighting Horde vs Alliance for control of Azeroth... Oh wait...

[Kathranis]

Daario will come save the day with a deus ex army that he's been building up since Dany left or some shit like that, calling it now.

Nah, he'll just flat out be captain of the Golden Company now or something, and will betray Cersei when she least expects it.

[Altrec]

3. Arya's sneak attack: after the Night King enters the Godswood, he gives a clear signal to stop attacking to both the dead and the White Walkers alike. Given that it's likely he completely dominates and controls them, they did exactly what he asked. Right as the Night King is about to kill Bran, there is a shot of one of the Walkers glancing to its right and down a bit. That's Arya coming through. She WAS seen, the Night King's orders simply prevented them from stopping her stealth run.

I don't have a problem with the Arya thing and the Night King. However, the white walker that was looking down was looking at Theon as he took his last breaths after the night king walked past him on the ground.

[Cradyz]

Hate that response, personally. After beating death itself and saving humanity, who cares about some pity squabbling over a throne?

Doesn't have nearly as much consequence as potentially losing to the Night King.

It's like beating Sargeras together, united and then going back to fighting Horde vs Alliance for control of Azeroth... Oh wait...

I would be fine with it if there at least was some more politics, but there isn't. There is no more kings landing story, just big bad Cersei being an unopposed autocrat since last season. There is no tension there.

All I want now is for is for Jaime (not Arya wearing his face god no pls) to choke her / stab her in the back and for the whole city to go up in a blaze of green glory.

[Beazy]

The show is so off the rails now Im sure the final scene will be Bran fucking with time travel and we find out he does indeed have a hand in creating the night king, just like Hodor.

[Kazlofski]

I would be fine with it if there at least was some more politics, but there isn't. There is no more kings landing story, just big bad Cersei being an unopposed autocrat since last season. There is no tension there.

All I want now is for is for Jaime (not Arya wearing his face god no pls) to choke her / stab her in the back and for the whole city to go up in a blaze of green glory.

I am quite sure that this will in fact happen, and truthfully, I don't really have any curiosity as to who will stay alive to seize the throne/make a council. :/


Imagine rewatching GoT now, everytime someone says "Winter is Coming" or "Night King..." your eyes will just roll because it's all a joke.

[Varodoc]

The politics aspects of the series have always been vastly more interesting than the undead, even in the books.

The typical answer I was expecting. Spoilers: The political aspects won't come back. Gone are the days of Tywin, Olenna, Littlefinger, Old Tyrion, etc. It's just Disney (Jon and Daenerys) vs. Evil (Cersei) now.

And by the way, the show is based on A Song of ICE and Fire.

[Independent voter]

I wish people would stop sucking Arya's dick already. She has always been one of the worst tier-1 characters, even in the books. The night king is the culmination of Jon Snow's story (or at least, more so than fucking Arya). What is the point of Bran's character at this point? He hasn't done anything interesting since like season 5, when they decided to kill off Hodor instead of having him perma-worg into Hodor (as I predict will happen in the book).

I really don't understand how each and every episode continues to be worse than the one before it.

Well, half the population is female and it makes sense to include the ladies too, if for nothing else than marketing.

What disappointed me is how easily the NK died. Here was a guy they built a 700 foot tall, thousand mile long wall to keep out. A person who has been a legend for thousands of years.

And the NK went out in a cheap and simple way, an easy kill.

Why didn't they kill the NK a thousand years ago instead of building the wall? It's not like he's hard to defeat.

[Gorsameth]

Also, someone else pointed out: the Northern forces are, essentially, non-existent after this battle. With what army are they gonna lay siege to KLs?

Granted there's 2 Dragons, but unless they wanna make KLs a big green ball of flame, they're nullified.

The golden company will betray Cersei and side with Danny/Aegon because they are the remnants of a Targaryen rebellion.