[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Marfrila]

It's funny to me how many people in this thread are so, well, butthurt about Arya killing the Night King, when the vast majority of people seem to have been on their feet cheering when she flew out of nowhere at him.

I personally loved it. Probably my favorite scene in the entire series.

It was a cool scene sure. It looked awesome and was awesome. I like Arya. But story wise it's a mess and feels flat.

What personal history does Arya have with the NK? What stake other than surviving? Jon, Dany, Sam, Edd and Tormund (and probably more) all have a story with the NK or his army and for many of them it goes back to season 1.

People will say that this is what Arya has been training to do. But I'd rather see that her training culminated with her killing Cersei. It might be predictable but story wise it would be much more satisfactory. I'm not a fan of twists just for the sake of a twist. And just because you know something is coming then it doesn't mean it can't be done in a surprising way. At least if you are a good writer.

I saw a video on youtube comparing it to if Chewbacca (or anyone else) showed up in the throne room of Return of the Jedi and shot and killed Darth Vader and the emperor with his awesome crossbow blaster. It would look awesome but story wise it would feel flat and stupid.

[RobertoCarlos]

It's funny to me how many people in this thread are so, well, butthurt about Arya killing the Night King, when the vast majority of people seem to have been on their feet cheering when she flew out of nowhere at him.

I personally loved it. Probably my favorite scene in the entire series.

I think they're more upset at the fact the NK was defeated so easily.

They wanted a 20min monologue where the NK talked shit james bond villain style and explained his motives/intentions so it wasnt left a mystery.

The people saying "Omg how did a girl trained in stealth magic be able to stealth!?!?!?!" have clearly not been following her arc at all.

What they fail to realise is, its alllllll part of the plan.

NK prequel coming to HBO 2021!

[Very Tired]

Where exactly were the Wildlings in that fight? I thought their entire deal was they got to cross the wall as long as they agreed to fight the undead when the time came.

[announced]

Where exactly were the Wildlings in that fight? I thought their entire deal was they got to cross the wall as long as they agreed to fight the undead when the time came.

most of them died in the fight against the Boltons from what I remember in the battle of the bastards. This was the battle of Winterfell.

[fakaroonie]

I'm hoping the books will be totally different.

The ending will be the same, but how the show gets there will be different for sure.

Melissandre dying to NK and in the process killing him, after doing some sacrificing before hand, would've made more sense. Say, sacrificing Beric on purpose, then going to NK and say: Hi NK, kill me please. He kills her and fire takes them both.

[Kathranis]

Gendry and Arya as monarchs is the good end for me

A blacksmith and an assassin with no earthly idea how to rule, no political training, no nothing. Man, what a disaster that would be.

[crusadernero]

It was a cool scene sure. It looked awesome and was awesome. I like Arya. But story wise it's a mess and feels flat.

What personal history does Arya have with the NK? What stake other than surviving? Jon, Dany, Sam, Edd and Tormund (and probably more) all have a story with the NK or his army and for many of them it goes back to season 1.

People will say that this is what Arya has been training to do. But I'd rather see that her training culminated with her killing Cersei. It might be predictable but story wise it would be much more satisfactory. I'm not a fan of twists just for the sake of a twist. And just because you know something is coming then it doesn't mean it can't be done in a surprising way. At least if you are a good writer.

I saw a video on youtube comparing it to if Chewbacca (or anyone else) showed up in the throne room of Return of the Jedi and shot and killed Darth Vader and the emperor with his awesome crossbow blaster. It would look awesome but story wise it would feel flat and stupid.

I think the writers had to decide: Either Arya kills Cercei or the Night King. They chose her to kill the night king, so I doubt she will get Cercei.

In fact, I think Cercei will outlive it all. It wont end like she want to, but she will survive. The only other outcome I see for her is that Jaime or Tyrion kills her.

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I think they're more upset at the fact the NK was defeated so easily.

They wanted a 20min monologue where the NK talked shit james bond villain style and explained his motives/intentions so it wasnt left a mystery.

The people saying "Omg how did a girl trained in stealth magic be able to stealth!?!?!?!" have clearly not been following her arc at all.

What they fail to realise is, its alllllll part of the plan.

NK prequel coming to HBO 2021!

thats acutally a good tip, that the NK will be the center of attention in the prequel.

[Kathranis]

I never saw that Behind the Episode piece, that's.......interesting. What reason does she have for hating Tyrion? That he killed their mother in childbirth? Any rational adult knows that's not his fault. That he was smarter than her? She probably doesn't even think that. That he's an ugly dwarf and a stain on the family name? I guess that could be it, but that'd be pretty weak.

The whole point of Maggie's prophecy is to plant the seeds of madness in Cersei. The Valonqar prophecy is what makes her truly loathe Tyrion, and immediately think things like he killed Joffrey, with no proof. The whole point of it is that her hatred is irrational and unfounded (until her kids start dying), and drove her mad. And then, when the kids dying drove her even more mad due to their death in line with the prophecy, it makes Tyrion her mortal enemy (though by that point, Tyrion has already escaped after Joffrey's death).

Now, in the show, we're left with the prophecy basically fulfilled. It's an interesting dynamic.



In other things, after a rewatch of the episode last night, I have to wonder if Bran warged into Arya offscreen. He's warging for a longgggggggg ass time, but there's no evidence of the ravens near the Night's King near the end of his warg. Plus, after Arya kills the NK, she looks at Bran and starts approaching him in a somewhat horrified manner. I certainly hope D&D didn't leave the method behind her assassination out just for the cool shock of her jumping out of nowhere, and then only ever discuss it postmortem next episode.

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Another weird topic: prophecies from R'hllor all seem to be bullshit. Neither Stannis nor Jon are TPWWP. It appears that Dany's visions (of the Iron Throne covered in snow, IE of the NK winning), will not come true, and that vision was from a sorcerer, and all sorcery seems to come from Asshai, like R'hllor. But the witches (both in book and show) seem to be pretty accurate. The witch Cersei saw has had her prophecy come completely true in the show, and mostly true in the book, with the expectation that it'll be all true when Jaime/Tyrion kill her. The witch who told Dany she'd never be pregnant again until the sun rises in the west, etc, etc, seems to be true so far.

In the books there are false prophets and true ones. Moqorro's visions and magic all seem true, while Melisandre's are often faked and misinterpreted, her shadowbinding and possibly the leeches being exceptions.

The maegi visions are cryptic but seem to definitely be coming true in less obvious ways. Dany's in particular has been ignored in the show, but in the books seems to have been fulfilled by Quentyn dying, the grass sea drying, etc.

Greendreams always seem to come true.

The Shade of the Evening visions are another matter altogether and can't be trusted, but are extremely interesting.

[josykay]

Something I would like to see in the show - Gendry legitimized by Dani/Jon as a true Baratheon so he can inherit Storm's End and be Lord of the Reach (I think that's the title) on the condition that he renounces all claim to the Iron Throne. He can then marry Arya and make many tiny ninja babies.

Technically Gendry can not be legitimized, because he is not recognized. Ramsay was recognized by his father as his son so he could later be legitimized. So was Jon Snow (Yeah yeah i know...). Gendry however was not.

(He could however be knighted, or even named lord in theory later on, founding a new house.)

[Gorsameth]

Where exactly were the Wildlings in that fight? I thought their entire deal was they got to cross the wall as long as they agreed to fight the undead when the time came.

Tormund and a bunch of wildlings are on the frontlines at the beginning of the fight, you can see them when the camera pans across the different groups.

[enigma77]

Technically Gendry can not be legitimized, because he is not recognized. Ramsay was recognized by his father as his son so he could later be legitimized. So was Jon Snow (Yeah yeah i know...). Gendry however was not.

(He could however be knighted, or even named lord in theory later on, founding a new house.)

Or Queen Daenerys snaps her fingers , proclaims him Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End and tells the people saying 'But..' to shut up.

[josykay]

Or Queen Daenerys snaps her fingers , proclaims him Gendry Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End and tells the people saying 'But..' to shut up.

Would set a great reason for another civil war, if there are any, remotely related nobles hangig around, with Daenerys essentially handing their rightful claims to some random lowborn out of wedlock, with absolutely no legal relationship to house baratheon.
Edric Storm in the books is at least a recognized son of Robert, but Gendry is nothing.

[Mavick]

Would set a great reason for another civil war, if there are any, remotely related nobles hangig around, with Daenerys essentially handing their rightful claims to some random lowborn out of wedlock, with absolutely no legal relationship to house baratheon.
Edric Storm in the books is at least a recognized son of Robert, but Gendry is nothing.

What goes in the books doesn't necessarily always go in the show, just fyi.

[josykay]

What goes in the books doesn't necessarily always go in the show, just fyi.

I know, i just wanted to say, it would work with Edric. Who is involved in that weird Kingsblood shit done by Melisandre.

With show Gendry, who is a weird mixure of Edric and book Gendry, it would be, at least very difficult, since essentially all, who had credibility and really knew of his hertiage are dead. We now have only Dany and Jon "just saying so", and Davos, probably also not hold in high regards in the Stormlands...

[Gorsameth]

8 Years and he dies in one episode without any plot advancement?

GoT fans, is there any universe in which the Night King isnt dead or have we just been royally screwed by Hollywood, because this episode didnt feel like George RR Martin had anything to do with it. And I cant shake the feeling that it was dissapointing, even though I want to like it.

The universe in which GRRM finished the books before the show got to this point so the writers had material to draw from instead of having to come up with something on there own.
In our universe tho, your shit out of luck.

[Chelly]

Perfect video. Nails it all. Especially the end rant:

Do you realize, what you've done, what you just did? You fucking worthless writers, you've just destroyed root and stem what the entire fucking point of this entire fucking show was. We survived season 4 episode 10's complete Tyrion fuck-up. We survived season 5's Dorne plot, aw-fuck-it-we-will-just-say-we-survived-season-5-as-a-whole, we survived season 6's complete waste of the Blackfish, we even survived season 7's insane teleporting characters and the absolute obliteration of Littlefinger and Coldhands, not to mention the zombie fucking polar bear. And we did it because we always knew that the show as whole still had some fucking life left, still had a chance to really prove itself to be worthwhile. It still had a legacy, to have something to say about humanity and to make all the death, betrayal and utter madness come to a fucking point. That death trumps everything, that we all need to help each other to overcome it. We need to put aside our petty squabbles of who should have more power, who should punish whom, who deserves, who has the rights. We put it all the fuck aside, because we fundamentally need to preserve life. We can't even complain about those things without being alive in the first place. We want to live for the moments that cannot come from a divided, greedy, prideful, envious, sadistic, naïve, lustful, warmongering nation. The game of thrones was never the point, it was life versus death. It was a show of perspective to get so invested in all of the politics, deals and betrayal and to get so caught up in every decision that each house made pushing one above the other, only to realize that no fucking banner matters, no allegiance matters. Your team was chosen for you - life against death. Something that everyone values and those who stood against that? They were the ones that would be punished. And so as a result the game of thrones would become a distant fucking memory by comparison to what is important. What was supposed to cherish.

[Tekkommo]

8 Years and he dies in one episode without any plot advancement?

GoT fans, is there any universe in which the Night King isnt dead or have we just been royally screwed by Hollywood, because this episode didnt feel like George RR Martin had anything to do with it. And I cant shake the feeling that it was dissapointing, even though I want to like it.

The Night King is not George RR Martins creation, unless he told D&D about him in advance and he turns up in the books later.

[Tekkommo]

Presumably though, the White Walkers are, and the TV series just chose the Night King as the ultimate personification of their goals etc.

Yes of course the White Walkers are, but we know very little of them from the books.

[Isilrien]

It's funny to me how many people in this thread are so, well, butthurt about Arya killing the Night King, when the vast majority of people seem to have been on their feet cheering when she flew out of nowhere at him.

I personally loved it. Probably my favorite scene in the entire series.

I'm fine with Arya killing him. It was a very cool scene, and I yelled YES! when that dagger hit home, and he shattered into ice. I am not, however, fine with what happened to the overall narrative (although "butthurt" does not describe my reaction--I'm puzzled and disappointed).

Against Martin, the NK is evil for evil's sake and not a mix of good and evil. Characters who should have died did not die (presumably because they are needed later in the show). The one who was built up over several seasons as being powerful and the biggest threat to all in Westeros was killed in about 20 seconds. So the NK and the dead are essentially a glorified subplot. A surprise for the sake of surprise is not good writing (which is why D&D changed who would kill the NK according to their comments in the behind-the-scenes episode). For example, Ned's death fit into the overall coherence of the narrative up to that point and while some if not many disliked his death, it made sense. The way the NK died did not. Instead, we learned that he was not as powerful as he was thought to be, that someone could have killed him thousands of years ago, and that overwhelming odds do not matter at all because the writers will protect whomever they wish. Perhaps the "threat" of the dead brought people together, but something else could have served equally well and fit better into the narrative, character development, and Martin's general concepts.

[Molis]

Perfect video. Nails it all. Especially the end rant:

Mostly just a salt miner trying to get them clicks.

NK is not in the books so really not the root and stem. More like a branch