Alliance aggressors confirmed

[Astalnar]

Come on now, Blizzard already decided that the Horde and Sylvanas as evil, and thus deserve to be shat on. Story and facts be damned. It's time to get with the program.

[Feanoro]

I mean my answer would be that Ashran just never happened. I mean, I think we'd all like to forget it.

If we could just pick and choose, why stop at Ashran? I'd rewind to early Wrath in a heartbeat, if only to slap sense into "He's Arthas! Wait, no he isn't! Yes he is! No, he destroyed that part! Yes..." or "We can't beat the Scourge with a frontal assault! *proceeds to bash down ICC door*"

[Verdugo]

The quest is there.

The quest is there for the Horde also.

Show me proof that the Alliance version is canon.

[Jastall]

There are no reasonable proportions in war. The Horde is free to react as it pleases. If the Alliance wasn't willing to take the Horde's escalation, they shouldn't have started shit in the first place. Rather simple. And your comparison stinks. The mother is a third party in the scuffle mentioned in it. Attacking Alliance in retaliation for Alliance's actions doesn't involve a third party.

What reaction? Sylvanas is already planning to conquer Stormwind before anything happens, up to and including how she would divide the spoils. Silithus is a casus belli at best, and a bad one at that considering nobody in-universe so much as even mentions the goblin miners that are purportedly worth fighting a world war over. Same with Stormheim which is mentioned once, by Sylv alone, and her would-be pragmatic justifications for the war are seen as a lot more important.

And having no reasonable proportions in war is a fucking retarded concept that can end up in situations where you bite off lots more than you can chew or escalate the situation beyond your means to control it. Which, funnily enough, is exactly what happened to the Horde who this time start getting their teeth in before the rebellion even begins. At least Garrosh made a good showing before going full NSDAP.

[Feanoro]

Why do I need to? So me proof it isn't???

Something something... trolls... something something... feeding...

Infracted.

[Eggroll]

Come on now, Blizzard already decided that the Horde and Sylvanas as evil, and thus deserve to be shat on. Story and facts be damned. It's time to get with the program.

Excuse me? Nelves like to have a word with you...

If anyone is constantly being shat on it's nelves. Horde and Horde players are pampered at the slightest hint their feelings might be irritated.
Look what Horde got: GCI cinematic, quest chain where you can decide who you want to follow, more cinematics...

While the victims of the most severe attack of the Horde get... NOTHING. No proper cinematic, no vengeance, nothing. Look at the Night Warrior cinematic: they didn't even bother to make it with Tyrandes character model, they just used a random player model and slapped "Tyrande Whisperwind" on it. Compare that to the "Old Soldier" cinematic.

So the lesson the devs want to teach us here is: Be a genocidal maniac and you will be rewarded.

And the old orc was complicit in the murder of civilians in Ashenvale and Darkshore. He is just as guilty as Sylvanas.

[Verdugo]

Why do I need to? So me proof it isn't???

Burden of proof is on you, you are the one that states that Alliance had good info on the happenings in Stormheim.


Even though Genn admits he has no idea why Sylvanas is in Stormheim.

I mean the reasonable proof that that quest is canon for the Alliance is conservation of detail. The Alliance learns the location of the Forsaken fleet which explains how they knew and could plan the attack on Stormheim; otherwise you'd need to assume they found in a different manner. I'd also mention that it makes more sense for the Alliance to be killing the Forsaken sailors there than for the Horde to be doing the same but the Horde is OK with killing its own so . . .

Horde is not killing those sailors. Thats one way to admit you only play one side and are ignorant of the other. Admit it, you didnt know there was a quest on the opposite side, completely discarding your argument.

[Verdugo]

Hmm you are right, you did save them on the Horde side. It still changes nothing.

As for burden of proof. I am making no claim as to the nature of the quest. The Alliance can experience it so there is that. You are making a claim that the quest is not canon for the Alliance so the burden of proof lays on you. And of course Genn does not know exactly what Sylvanas is doing. Most of that ledger was illegible. We just know she is there looking for power. That's largely enough for Genn.

There is absolutely no mention of the report in the Alliance questing during Stormheim. None. Zero. Nada. Null. Thus we can safely acknowledge that Genn just bumbled into the plot like an old man would.

[Elend Venture]

The Horde were corfirmed the aggressors when they came through the Dark Portal.

[Jastall]

There is absolutely no mention of the report in the Alliance questing during Stormheim. None. Zero. Nada. Null. Thus we can safely acknowledge that Genn just bumbled into the plot like an old man would.

A more likely explanation to me is that Detheroc got wind of the Horde fleet and told Genn about it. He wouldn't need to push too far in order to have the old dog go rabid on Sylvanas and divide the factions at this crucial moment.

Regardless, we know from Sylvanas's own thoughts that Stormheim, at best, reaffirmed her in her existing ideas towards the Alliance. It wasn't any sort of significant shift, she saw them as enemies before and did afterwards, and she saw the war as an opportunity to end them as a threat to the Horde and to herself, mostly the latter. Stormheim is a better casus belli than Silithus for sure, but that's still all it is for the most part.

[Verdugo]

Ultimately it is confirmed by Sylvanas own thoughts that the reason she is going to war is Varian. And it is seen as much because of a sense of being in danger as much as an opportunity. It is certainly served as opportunity to Saurfang.

And it was mentioned in the same book that gave Genn a tail. There is no reason to take Golden seriously since she is mentaly handicaped.

[Jastall]

Ultimately it is confirmed by Sylvanas own thoughts that the reason she is going to war is Varian. And it is seen as much because of a sense of being in danger as much as an opportunity. It is certainly served as opportunity to Saurfang.

Indeed. Sylvanas smelled blood in the water due to a lack of opposition, she did not seek revenge for Stormheim or had any illusion prior to that event regarding the fact that a good part of the Alliance leadership would prefer her head on a spike. Ironic then, that Anduin's war effort is a lot more effective than his father's, after the initial period of retardation that is.

Not to whitewash the Alliance in its entirety. I do believe they played with fire (eh) and that getting burned afterwards is partially their fault, as their attitude could indeed be seen as aggressive, or at least antagonistic, by most. But the Horde's response is so entirely disproportionate that any sympathy for them is very hard to find, objectively speaking. Which is not good writing in my opinion; I would definitely have had the Alliance be more aggressive and start the hostilities in Lordaeron. But that's not the story we got.

[Jastall]

And it was mentioned in the same book that gave Genn a tail. There is no reason to take Golden seriously since she is mentaly handicaped.

I think it's possible to separate goofs like that from the important bits of the book, IE the characters and their thought processes. Sylvanas underestimating the Alliance because Varian is dead and having a realpolitk approach to war with them (if one that is IMO misguided as hell by her bias) is entirely in-character, and lots more consistent with her behavior in-game than her going to war over a grudge or something.

[Verdugo]

I think it's possible to separate goofs like that from the important bits of the book, IE the characters and their thought processes. Sylvanas underestimating the Alliance because Varian is dead and having a realpolitk approach to war with them (if one that is IMO misguided as hell by her bias) is entirely in-character, and lots more consistent with her behavior in-game than her going to war over a grudge or something.

Maybe by the new characterisation and retcons introduced by Afrasiabi and Golden.

Stop defending them. Those two are supposed to be ridiculed and shamed, not praised.

[Jastall]

Maybe by the new characterisation and retcons introduced by Afrasiabi and Golden.

Stop defending them. Those two are supposed to be ridiculed and shamed, not praised.

I try to shoot the message, not the messenger which is a cheap tactic to handwave away things you don't like. Sylvanas is very much a person driven by pragmatism and opportunity. That she perceives the Alliance as having a weak leadership and moves to take advantage before the balance of power tips further against her fits her character far better than her going full ragemode over Stormheim, or being somehow shocked that Genn and Rogers want her dead. In this instance, I do indeed think Golden has the right of it. If that's me shilling for her or whatever term you prefer, then I'll live with it.

[Cobman]

Maybe by the new characterisation and retcons introduced by Afrasiabi and Golden.

Stop defending them. Those two are supposed to be ridiculed and shamed, not praised.

And who are you to call names on people? U can do better story? Try to apply for blizz team, they are not erfect writers, heck they do a lot of questionable story but they got there where they are not by commenting forums for how story should go in their heads

[Syegfryed]

Just go back to Outland, you can mine there whatever you want

as long the true owners of the planet, aka the trolls, do not have any problems we stay here.

[Verdugo]

but they got there where they are not by commenting forums for how story should go in their heads

Right, they got there by good old asskissing and in some blondes case, by hearty dose of rightthink.

[Mehrunes]

This is wrong but OP is even more wrong. The explorer's league is not there first, but much later.

At some point after the sword hits, Anduin sends SI:7 to keep an eye on the sword, and Gallywix sends goblins to investigate the possibility of Azerite after his cane is triggered by its awakening. It is unclear (and also doesn't really matter) who gets there first, but the Goblins note Azerite, and SI:7 keeps watch from afar (seen in the epilogue cinematics). Afterwards, the Alliance sends more SI:7 to keep an eye on the goblins, and the explorer's league to investiage Azerite.

There is no fighting up until this point.

The explorer's league arrives in Silithus, and the Goblins have completely taken over every azerite vein. So the explorer's league and their sentinel guard stay away from the goblins for several days, just making observations of the azerite through long-range equipment. The Alliance deliberately does not engage. After several nights of making observations, the explorer's league camp is attacked in the middle of the night by Goblins, who kill at least two sentinels, and kidnap Sapphy. That is the canon, first combat of the entire situation.

At some point afterwards, Anduin and Shaw send the Alliance player to Silithus, while Nathanos and Sylvanas send the Horde player (we know that this happens AFTER Sapphy's kidnapping, because the Alliance quests involve giving the explorer's league in silithus samples to study, and if they had samples they wouldn't have had to rely on purely remote observations prior to being attacked). The Alliance players are sent in to secure samples by force and disable the Goblin mining operations, while at the same time the Horde players are sent in to clear out SI:7 rogues--we know that these happen at the same time, because the Horde specifically talks about how the Alliance are just skulking around, there is literally zero mention of any attacks when the Horde player arrives.


All of this is completely unimportant, though, since the war has nothing at all to do with Silithus. Sylvanas is already planning the war and striking at Stormwind before she even knows about Azerite or that the Goblins are mining it in Silithus. The war is, and never was, about or started by Silithus. It was about Sylvanas seeing a vulnerability in the Alliance after the fight against the Legion to give the Horde an opportunity to quickly grab Kalimdor and then, with the Alliance divided by the attack with Darnassus held hostage they'd be unable to unite in an action and weak to continued aggression.

That is how the war started, period. It has nothing to do with Silithus, it has nothing to do with Stormheim. It was purely Sylvanas seeing an opportunity for expansion and conquest.

Funny how you say the OP is even more wrong than the person you're replying to only to go on pretending how the skirmish with the Explorer's League was the first hostile act in Silithus. When the SI:7 reinforcements that were the subject of the Silithus 7.3.5 questline (that involved hostilities) are sent to Silithus in the second chapter of the book while Explorer's League is sent there halfway through the book. Chronology, how does it work? And just because Sylvanas had some vague plans even before Silithus doesn't give you any ground to handwave away Alliance aggression in Silithus or Stormheim.

"But muh Stormheim!"

"But muh complete lack of actual arguments".

Lol i dont get why horde fanbois want to justify horde actions so badly? Like dude you play green brute or a god damn zombie, you shouldnt be looking for justified reasons to murder stuff. Its just mental gymnastics and twisted logic with burning of teldrassil or silithus situation. Get over with it there is no logical reasoning why horde should have done it and yet you still try to prove something that doesnt exist.

Just repeating your cry about "mental gymnastics" doesn't constitute an argument against the established chronology of events.

Wasn't the whole Silithus thing just a diversion to get the nelf forces away from Teldrassil and Darkshore so the nelf territory would be defenseless?
If Silithus had been the main objective, why were all the major Horde leaders in nelf lands instead of Silithus?

Just some silly questions for the OP.

More like irrelevant questions because you don't understand the topic. The diversion in regards to Silithus was the Horde pretending to march their main army from Orgrimmar to Silithus. That army never reached Silithus because that was the diversion. As such, it obviously couldn't have taken part in the earlier hostilities in Silithus that the OP is talking about.

This is the reason the Alliance went after Sylvanas in Stormheim.

There is absolutely nothing indicating that Azsuna even happens before Stormheim, let alone that Alliance version of the questline is canon as opposed to the Horde one. The Alliance questline in Stormheim directly contradicts both of these notions, as Genn repeatedly talks about how he has no clue about what Sylvanas is up to after the initial attack. Furthermore Genn and Rogers talk about how they are going to bend Anduin's orders even before leaving Stormwind. On top of that, nothing there creates any sort of justification of the Alliance anyway.

Trying to keep your enemy from getting greater power (Wartime or not) is equally logical, the same thing happened in both Stormheim and Silithus: The horde suddenly diverted sizable manpower towards getting hold of an unknown resource, assuming they would use that resource against the Alliance at the first opportunity is hardly a stretch of the imagination, so trying to stop them is no more than logical.

Is it logical? Sure. Does anyone deny it? Most players don't, at least in regards to Silithus (because in regards to Stormheim there's no proof that Genn knew about Sylvanas' plans to begin with and plenty of proof - Genn's own admission included - to the contrary). Does it negate Alliance attacking the Horde? Not at all.

The truce was dissolved when the Horde did not come to the Alliance's aid nor made an effort to communicate they were evacuating during the events of the Broken Shore. Yes, it was dissolved by the Alliance as per the information they could gather both there and that supplied by Detheroc.

They were still never allies. Truces are not permanent so it would be dissolved by either side regardless.

Keep trying to tell us how the Alliance attacking a military target over valid intelligence that proved to be worthwhile is a perfect excuse for genocide. It's most amusing.

What do you mean "they didn't come to Alliance's aid"? The Horde split their forces and had their ranged support babysit the Alliance, robbing the Horde of it in the process, because Varian was a moron and left his at the beach. Even though the Horde was facing more enemies. And when they were consequently overrun, they still signaled their retreat (contrary to your claims) at which point they had nothing else to give to the Alliance.

On top of that, your entire narrative about truces is something you pulled out of the nether as there has been nothing said whatsoever that they were in conflict at the time to need a truce and that they'd go back to this conflict once the truce you made up dissolved. Just like there's still nothing indicating the Alliance got the intel you speak of prior to Stormheim or even got it at all, while Genn's own admission of not having a clue what Sylvanas is after that he repeated throughout Stormheim directly contradicts it. Just like there's still nothing in that intel that justifies an attack against the Horde even if the Alliance did get it. Just like still nothing here would negate that the Alliance attacked the Horde in Stormheim.

To top it all off, Anduin himself said Genn was in the wrong in Stormheim and that he broke his orders to commit that wrong.

The Alliance itself doesn't.

You don't even know Alliance's quests on the topic you're talking about... The Alliance didn't approve of looting of Taurajo after the battle. Nothing of the sort has been said about the attack itself.

I was under the impression that the first aggressive act between the factions post-MoP was Ashran, which was instigated by the Horde. Is this inaccurate? If not, then attempting to point to Stormheim as some sort of betrayal is a bit of a weak argument.

But the factions still cooperated in peace at the start of Legion despite Ashran, meaning they brushed it under the carpet just like they brushed Vanilla battlegrounds under the carpet back in the day. After Legion's start on the other hand the factions were so hostile to each other they needed a ceasefire even for a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground.

[Malikath]

ashran, *drops mic*.