Belfs turned into traitors and scumbags

[Mehrunes]

Dropping everything for Baine without a proper plan is out of character, heck it puts baine above his people and this is a line that should not be crossed for him, he does not save baine for his people he saves him, because he believes baine is a good cookie. At the end of the day he doesn't even know if his people are even willing to follow him into rebellion.

What if he considers Baine a honorary Blood Elf at this point? That'd solve all the issues you raise here. Not that there are really issues to begin with. There's a threshold that when crossed would make even Lor'themar act in a manner that could put his people at risk. Like Sylvanas threatening the heart of the Horde. You just haven't paid attention to the story, it's all laid out there.

[Aucald]

Dropping everything for Baine without a proper plan is out of character, heck it puts baine above his people and this is a line that should not be crossed for him, he does not save baine for his people he saves him, because he believes baine is a good cookie. At the end of the day he doesn't even know if his people are even willing to follow him into rebellion.

It is out of his established character in that sense, although that's not necessarily as bad thing, either. People change after all.

Orcish honor, is different from Goblins, Elves, forsaken and Tauren. They seek to die on the battlefield and are incredible focused on conflict, most other horde races are not.
Goblins put money above almost anything
They all have different deities
Shamanism is the highest form of cultural for some others scoff at it.
etc.

I don't see a single uniting thread that would tie each horde race together. I can at least tell you to 100% honor is not it.

The Horde, as established by Thrall and codified when the Tauren and Darkspear Trolls were included in its ranks, is a diverse coalition founded the ideas of mutual protection, combined power, excellence as defined by strength (martial, magical, spiritual, or otherwise), and the nebulous but important idea of honor. Vol'jin thought of it as a family, which is an apt enough metaphor, but essentially they are the outcast races banding together for their own protection - in many ways, everything that the Alliance is not. In this sense, the ultimate betrayal of the Horde is to betray that mutual trust - to injure one's own family in the name of personal power or gain. This is why Garrosh was ultimately opposed and deposed - he put his own insane dream of conquest over what was best for the Horde. Sylvanas is being opposed for similar reasons - her unwillingness to see that the war she engineered is no longer what is best for the Horde.

[Evilfish]

Now if only Lor'themar switched sides in the Blood Elf/High Elf issue and proclaimed to be a High Elf (which is the requirement for him to unlock his human potential), he'd achieve the ultimate form of Bainehood. But that's a story for 8.3 so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

If they make him do this, he might as well have proclaimed himself a helf as far as I'm concerned. There's no coming back from this in my opinion. And the worse part is that they hit the whole race in the face because this guy has been the face of the Belfs.

And you know what? It would have made more sense because if there's one thing we know is that belfs are not "really" Horde, but just misguided little prissies who flirt with the Alliance and are hopeful that one day the get asked on a date.

In reality if they turn against Sylvanas who has done NOTHING to them and a lot FOR them to join the Alliance effort who has done a lot AGAINST them then they are scum and traitors and no one, in their right mind would trust them.

But hey, I hear incoherent mood swings are a thing now.

[Zandalariprelate]

Because those cannibalistic, tribal, savage, voodoo-using, sadistic trolls that have been enemies of humanity for thousands of years are definitely not worthy of his hatred.

Keep in mind he's 'Trollbane' primarily to forest trolls, the assholes that the Horde AND Alliance fight. Sure, he's willing to funnel that aggression against other trolls who are fighting him and his people, but he and his bloodline have a history with trolls being the bad guys.

Literally the humans invaded troll lands, obviously they will fight hard to keep their lands and even after years of war, the kingdomes of men and the trolls lived relatively in peace since both realms of Alterac and Stromgarde and you can't have both kingdomes in war with each other if the trolls are still a threat which they weren't at that point, the humans only went back to the troll hunting business when the elves made a deal with them at exchange of learning arcane magic.

Ironically also the elves has a big historial with the humans being their major enemy in the form of Kel'thuzad, Arthas and Garithos but that doesn't mean they have to seek total annihilation toward the whole humanity

[Combatbutler]

The Horde, as established by Thrall and codified when the Tauren and Darkspear Trolls were included in its ranks, is a diverse coalition founded the ideas of mutual protection, combined power, excellence as defined by strength (martial, magical, spiritual, or otherwise), and the nebulous but important idea of honor. Vol'jin thought of it as a family, which is an apt enough metaphor, but essentially they are the outcast races banding together for their own protection

Yeah the horde pretty much overall and the rest be damned, like the Quilboar for example, that genocide is fine from a narrative point of view but others are not, this schizophrenic behavior actually defines the horde, it is torn in ten different directions, staying together to each get a piece of Azeroth, not because they are a close knit group, they never have been and never will be. Vol'jin tried to bring the horde truly together but ultimately this idea utterly failed as we can see, with the usual dilemma of no common cause in the horde.

[StationaryHawk]

Despite all of the poor writing this expansion, it's still difficult to take some of the criticism towards it seriously.

Why should the blood elves be forever in the Forsaken's debt simply because they offered aid where the Alliance did not? Sylvanas has demonstrated both a tendency for antagonizing a superior foe, disregarding her allies, and using whatever questionable means she sees fit. The most out of character choice I can imagine Lor'themar making in the situation he's in is to tie his people's fate to hers because of some non-existent debt.

Dropping everything for Baine without a proper plan is out of character, heck it puts baine above his people and this is a line that should not be crossed for him, he does not save baine for his people he saves him, because he believes baine is a good cookie. At the end of the day he doesn't even know if his people are even willing to follow him into rebellion.

That is a different matter entirely. Lor'themar can believe his actions are best for his people without his people's consensus.

[Trassk]

Which would be the Alliance based on the past.

But hey, teaming up the the guy who tried to kill and/or destroy you to kill the guy who helped you in the past is fine, cause I hate Sylvanas.

No, sylvanas is a greater threat to the horde internally now then the alliance.
Or did you forget how while the alliance just captured saurfang, sylvanas on the same day raised the hordes own soldiers as undead abominations.

[Mehrunes]

Of course there's room for doubt and interpretation - there's always room for both of those concepts, sworn fealty or not. You act like fealty is some form of axiomatic and inviolable law of the universe here when it's not. It's a decision that people make and abide by, and it can be withdrawn if they so choose (with due consequences of course). I never said that anything Baine did was right, or correct - and if you think that I did then point it out. I am only saying that Baine sees his own actions are correct, and other members of the Horde are increasingly agreeing with his example in whole or in part. As I said, they're betraying Sylvanas directly and *possibly* the Horde, although like Vol'jin before them they're redefining the Horde from their own perspective as something no longer in keeping with Sylvanas' regime. That's their right, even if you don't agree with it. They're only wrong if you disagree with their perspective, and think that Sylvanas hasn't made herself illegitimate as Warchief (as Garrosh did earlier in MoP when the Horde finally tipped against him).

Please, do tell me what room is there for interpretation of whether something is treason or not in context of fealty of absolute obedience in a dictatorship where the dictator gets comically ridiculous levels of power when someone not only does not express absolute obedience, but actively works against said dictator, kills other subjects of said dictator and aids the current war enemy of the dictatorship. I'm sure it's going to be a fascinating tale.

And really, fealty can be withdrawn? Look at all the zero times I argued the contrary. Once you're done looking at those zero times ponder on what the action of withdrawing fealty is called. Hint: breaking the fealty. But hey, I guess in some universes that's not treason, because "Baine's perspective" or something.

Except Baine's eyes are absolutely irrelevant here. Your line of argumentation has the same logic as saying that "from Baine's perspective he didn't murder the Forsaken on the ship because laws are a social contract and not an inviolable rule of the universe!!1!". So not exactly much logic. Because Baine's amazing perspective doesn't give him the magical power to alter reality in a way where him breaking the law doesn't constitute him breaking the law in some ways (and only "technically" constitutes that in other ways) because he pulled a Sharingan out of his behind and gained extended eyesight.

And for someone accusing me of applying a moral lens in the second paragraph, you are doing the exact same thing here. I haven't touched the topic of whether they are wrong or not. I have touched the topic of them committing treason. Which they literally did.

Because despite you trying to shift and reduce this topic to pointing out that Baine and his lot have the capacity to break Horde's laws - as if I didn't know that already - each time we're having this same trite discussion, them having that capacity (which they obviously have because they aren't goddamn robots programmed to execute specific tasks without any thought of their own) in no way, shape or form negates the fact that they are breaking their faction's rules (which by chance do not include the right of redefining anything for the Warchief's subjects) and actively acting against its acting ruler. If only there was a word like, I dunno, "treason" to describe such actions...

Oh, wait, there is and it just so happens to be treason. What a lucky coincidence.

Not whitewashing anything that Baine has done, nor saying that his "light" is either positive or negative. You're applying the moral lensing here, not me - and you're doing so from a specific position you've decided. I am approaching the narrative more or less objectively and externally, not speaking to any parties' rightness or wrongness from that external standpoint. To put it succinctly, I am not making any form of claim as to whether Baine is technically or fundamentally correct as concerns his actions.

Proper usage of words does not constitute a "moral lens".

[seleri]

All right. Let's say that he's sickened to his fucking guts by the stuff she does to other people.

Aside a bellyache and some hurt feelings there's not much they can hold against her. Genocide you say? That wasn't really genocide and if it was, so was what Jaina did in Dalaran. At least Sylvanas was at war with the Alliance, Dalaran was supposed to be neutral.

Wrong. The main blood elf population wasn't in Dalaran and she wasn't trying to wipe them out. Sylvanas attacked the night elves' capital, where the bulk of their population was, and their population was destroyed by it. Directly from Elegy:

The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents.
How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained
of their people.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.

Sylvanas has shown she only cares about whatever her end goal is and she'll throw the Horde (including blood elves) through a meat grinder to accomplish it. It's completely reasonable that Lor'themar wouldn't want his people to be used like that.

For the record, I love Sylvanas. I love her because she's selfish and evil. She's always been the fringe member of the Horde and I knew when they put her in power there was only one way it could go, which is where we're at now.

[eurojust]

Despite all of the poor writing this expansion, it's still difficult to take some of the criticism towards it seriously.

Why should the blood elves be forever in the Forsaken's debt simply because they offered aid where the Alliance did not? Sylvanas has demonstrated both a tendency for antagonizing a superior foe, disregarding her allies, and using whatever questionable means she sees fit. The most out of character choice I can imagine Lor'themar making in the situation he's in is to tie his people's fate to hers because of some non-existent debt.

This is a different matter entirely. Lor'themar can believe his actions are best for his people without his people's consensus.

Lor'themar explains that this debt is the reason that they are still in Horde (which is funny how the benefit of this debt had been transferred from forsaken to Horde).
If they wanted to be pragmatic then they should have left the Horde and go neutral in the first place.
Now they risk retaliation from the Alliance AND Sylvanas if she wins this.

[Mehrunes]

The Horde, as established by Thrall and codified when the Tauren and Darkspear Trolls were included in its ranks, is a diverse coalition founded the ideas of mutual protection, combined power, excellence as defined by strength (martial, magical, spiritual, or otherwise), and the nebulous but important idea of honor. Vol'jin thought of it as a family, which is an apt enough metaphor, but essentially they are the outcast races banding together for their own protection - in many ways, everything that the Alliance is not. In this sense, the ultimate betrayal of the Horde is to betray that mutual trust - to injure one's own family in the name of personal power or gain. This is why Garrosh was ultimately opposed and deposed - he put his own insane dream of conquest over what was best for the Horde. Sylvanas is being opposed for similar reasons - her unwillingness to see that the war she engineered is no longer what is best for the Horde.

Codified? Where can one find this codex of Thrall's green guilt? I'd like a copy. But wait, how can a codex of "a Horde established by Thrall" exist when he was merely passed the mantle of Warchief onto by Orgrim on his deathbed?

If they make him do this, he might as well have proclaimed himself a helf as far as I'm concerned. There's no coming back from this in my opinion. And the worse part is that they hit the whole race in the face because this guy has been the face of the Belfs.

Technically Lor'themar complains at the end that Sylvanas still has the loyalty of the people and ponders that this may include his own people as well. So there's still hope. I mean, but there's still hope. That they see the light of Baine (and through him, the light of god-boiking Blanduin the magically boned), that is.

In reality if they turn against Sylvanas who has done NOTHING to them and a lot FOR them to join the Alliance effort who has done a lot AGAINST them then they are scum and traitors and no one, in their right mind would trust them.

But are they really traitors or traitors only in the technical sense because from their perspective their traitorous actions are merely them redefining the Horde?

[Astalnar]

Did you just wake up from a coma or something? We've been complaing about Blizzard butchering the story in regards of BfA at least since the first Teldrasil cinematic was released if not even earlier. And the story still sucks, because Blizzard doesn't care.

[Mehrunes]

Despite all of the poor writing this expansion, it's still difficult to take some of the criticism towards it seriously.

Why should the blood elves be forever in the Forsaken's debt simply because they offered aid where the Alliance did not? Sylvanas has demonstrated both a tendency for antagonizing a superior foe, disregarding her allies, and using whatever questionable means she sees fit. The most out of character choice I can imagine Lor'themar making in the situation he's in is to tie his people's fate to hers because of some non-existent debt.

In what universe is the Alliance a superior foe to the Horde? They only ever managed to survive a war with the Horde due to Horde starting infighting. And even then the last time it happened they ended up conceding a huge amount of land to the Horde. And this "non-existent debt" is the very reason why there are still Blood Elves, by Lor'themar's own admission.

[The Stormbringer]

Literally the humans invaded troll lands, obviously they will fight hard to keep their lands and even after years of war, the kingdomes of men and the trolls lived relatively in peace since both realms of Alterac and Stromgarde and you can't have both kingdomes in war with each other if the trolls are still a threat which they weren't at that point, the humans only went back to the troll hunting business when the elves made a deal with them at exchange of learning arcane magic.

Ironically also the elves has a big historial with the humans being their major enemy in the form of Kel'thuzad, Arthas and Garithos but that doesn't mean they have to seek total annihilation toward the whole humanity

The trolls has a monopoly on space, what were the humans supposed to do? They got kicked out by their Vrykul parents and told to live in a new, unfamiliar land without any support. The humans do so, through no fault of their own, and butt up against the trolls (and vice versa). Also, I don't think the humans 'went back to troll hunting', they were actively hostile with the trolls. I'd have to re-read my Chronicle though.

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas has shown she only cares about whatever her end goal is and she'll throw the Horde (including blood elves) through a meat grinder to accomplish it. It's completely reasonable that Lor'themar wouldn't want his people to be used like that.

And when exactly have the Blood Elves been ground, exactly?

[Aucald]

Please, do tell me what room is there for interpretation of whether something is treason or not in context of fealty of absolute obedience in a dictatorship where the dictator gets comically ridiculous levels of power when someone not only does not express absolute obedience, but actively works against said dictator, kills other subjects of said dictator and aids the current war enemy of the dictatorship. I'm sure it's going to be a fascinating tale.

So you're saying that a dictator has never been deposed? Not only that, they manifestly can't be deposed? That once installed, a leader is secured by the laws of reality for all time and as such none of their subjects can ever oppose them on any grounds? You have to know this isn't how reality actually works.

And really, fealty can be withdrawn? Look at all the zero times I argued the contrary. Once you're done looking at those zero times ponder on what the action of withdrawing fealty is called. Hint: breaking the fealty. But hey, I guess in some universes that's not treason, because "Baine's perspective" or something.

If a tyrant is successfully deposed, do those who opposed them stand trial for treason? Unjust regimes, like unjust laws, are destroyed by those who successfully rebel against them.

Except Baine's eyes are absolutely irrelevant here. Your line of argumentation has the same logic as saying that "from Baine's perspective he didn't murder the Forsaken on the ship because laws are a social contract and not an inviolable rule of the universe!!1!". So not exactly much logic. Because Baine's amazing perspective doesn't give him the magical power to alter reality in a way where him breaking the law doesn't constitute him breaking the law in some ways (and only "technically" constitutes that in other ways) because he pulled a Sharingan out of his behind and gained extended eyesight.

Laws are a social contract, I would expect you to know this. Unless you want to claim that the universe or some unknown greater force does indeed enact them without the aid of people. Laws can also be unjust, misused, misapplied, and corrupt - so yes, that argument could indeed be made. I'm not making it, of course, but the semantic freedom does exist.

And for someone accusing me of applying a moral lens in the second paragraph, you are doing the exact same thing here. I haven't touched the topic of whether they are wrong or not. I have touched the topic of them committing treason. Which they literally did.

You'll have to point it out, then. Aside from saying that Baine has his own perspective, rightly or wrongly, I've not made any form of moral judgment on him or his actions.

Because despite you trying to shift and reduce this topic to pointing out that Baine and his lot have the capacity to break Horde's laws - as if I didn't know that already - each time we're having this same trite discussion, them having that capacity (which they obviously have because they aren't goddamn robots programmed to execute specific tasks without any thought of their own) in no way, shape or form negates the fact that they are breaking their faction's rules (which by chance do not include the right of redefining anything for the Warchief's subjects) and actively acting against its acting ruler. If only there was a word like, I dunno, "treason" to describe such actions...

Treason != illegality. Laws and governments can also change, and have been changed, by those who seek to do so. That's kind of what the purpose of an insurrection is.

[Mehrunes]

The trolls has a monopoly on space, what were the humans supposed to do? They got kicked out by their Vrykul parents and told to live in a new, unfamiliar land without any support. The humans do so, through no fault of their own, and butt up against the trolls (and vice versa). Also, I don't think the humans 'went back to troll hunting', they were actively hostile with the trolls. I'd have to re-read my Chronicle though.

That's really humans' problem, not the Trolls'. That aside, the area around Uldaman was Troll-free.

[Skulltaker]

That's really humans' problem, not the Trolls'. That aside, the area around Uldaman was Troll-free.

Seeing how the trolls have lost all their might I'd say it's noones problem any more, just some trolls being salty while they crawl around in their ruins.

[Evilfish]

Wrong. The main blood elf population wasn't in Dalaran and she wasn't trying to wipe them out. Sylvanas attacked the night elves' capital, where the bulk of their population was, and their population was destroyed by it. Directly from Elegy:



Sylvanas has shown she only cares about whatever her end goal is and she'll throw the Horde (including blood elves) through a meat grinder to accomplish it. It's completely reasonable that Lor'themar wouldn't want his people to be used like that.

For the record, I love Sylvanas. I love her because she's selfish and evil. She's always been the fringe member of the Horde and I knew when they put her in power there was only one way it could go, which is where we're at now.

There wasn't much belf population to begin with, if we are going by that character-perspective quote. But that didn't stop Jaina, did it? Sylvanas does not seem to care much about what race you are and rather, under what banner you are. And the belfs were under the banner of the faction which did attack her openly and without provocation.

I don't like this willingness to look past Jaina's deeds while condemning Sylvanas. Which leads me to suspect that the last paragraph is lip service.

[Aucald]

Codified? Where can one find this codex of Thrall's green guilt? I'd like a copy. But wait, how can a codex of "a Horde established by Thrall" exist when he was merely passed the mantle of Warchief onto by Orgrim on his deathbed?

"Chronicle Vol. 3," covering the close of the Third War and the formation of Thrall's Horde, as well as "Shadows of the Horde" for Vol'jin's philosophy on the heels of him becoming Warchief of the Horde.