[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Dziubla]

because they broke up Jaime and Brienne tossing all his character development to the trash can (What the fuck man?) along with hers (From badass warrior goddess, to heartbroken teenage girl)

I guess badass women warriors aren't allowed to fall in love/have feelings/whatever, because it automatically tosses theircharacter develpoment (her what, sorry? she had character development on the show? huh, here I was, thinking she has been the exact same person since her introduction without any development whatsoever) into the trash can.

What pisses me off more than anything, not just in this episode, but in this season altogether, is them trying to set up Danny as the next Mad Queen. Like WHAT THE FUCK man?

Except there has been mad queen theories about her for over a decade, even before the show started. There has been plenty of hints in the books, and just as many in the show as well. Just because most people ignore it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Its just stupid, completely stupid. She went to Westeros, to seize the Iron Throne. That was what her entire life has been about up until now. She gathered the largest army the world has ever seen, and went to Westeros, hellbent on delivering to Cersei nothing but Fire and Blood.

Instead, she showed restraint, and control, and it costed her the tyrells, and dornish, and the ironborn that were with her. And then, she entirely leaves the fight for the iron throne, and goes north, sacrificing one of her dragons, as well as a huge ass chunk of her army, just to save the north. She didn't have any reason to do that, but she did it anyways. And now every character is acting like she's a psycho bitch that's just one bad day away from being Joffrey with tits.

Did she do it to save the north? I was under the impression she did it partially to win the north, and partially because of Jon. Also, she's not one bad day away from being Joffrey with tits. She's already worse than Joffrey. At least Joffrey was a villain, plain and simple. Everyone knew he's a sadistic idiot. With Daenerys though, she pretend she's this great savior of the people, and yet she gives as much of a fuck about the people as Cersei does. Meaning zero. All she wants is her throne, no matter how many people she has to burn along the way to get it.

Why are Sansa and Arya so obsessed with not trusting her, the fuck does it takes to win the trust of someone in the north? she saved their asses, at a great personal cost when she had almost nothing to gain from it herself. But noooooooo she targaryen, she bad.

They don't trust her mostly because of what Sansa said to Daenerys. Men do stupid things for women. They realize that with her in the picture, Jon will always put her ahead of the Starks, or the North, and will do whatever Daenerys demands of him. Which is the exact same thing Varys says, when discussing their marriage with Tyrion. Jon ruling alongside her would be the same thing as her ruling alone. Jon would do whatever she wanted. Though hopefully he's starting to open his eyes, since in this episode he DID disobey her, by telling his sisters about him being a Targ.

Why is Varys all of the sudden obsessed with putting Jon on the throne? Jon is exactly like ned. And Ned was an idiot, so blinded by honor that the cutthroat realities of politics killed him. Jon has no experience ruling, is gullible and naive, easily pushed around by almost everyone who knows him. While Danny has already proven her capacity to rule in Essos, and again, sacrificed almost everything she had, to fight a battle nobody else in the seven kingdoms gave a single solitary fuck about. But no, jon has a cock, that automatically makes him better than her.

Sure, Jon is an idiot, on that we agree. As for Daenerys proving her capacity to rule in Essos - sorry, what? If anything, Essos proved how terrible a ruler she would be. Like, this was the number one reason why GRRM even kept her there so long. To show the readers she can't rule whatsoever. Everything she does turns to shit. Her every decision makes people suffer. Her number one way of solving problems is BURN THEM ALL! Without her advisors to restrain her, she would most likely burn entire Slaver's Bay by now. Also, yes, let's go the retarded route, and make it all about cocks - sure, why not.

Besides, just a few seasons ago, Varys was whining that Robert was a terrible king because he wasn't interested in ruling, and instead spent most of his life drinking and whoring. Now he's pushing for Jon and the chief reason he gives for wanting him on the throne is because............... Jon's not interested in ruling?

There's a difference between not wanting power, and actively avoiding it like Robert. Jon never wanted power, and yet he accepts it, and does his best for his people. It has been the theme of many works of fiction, where the people best suited for power, are the people who want it the least. Jon didn't want to be Lord Commander. And yet he accepted it, and did everything he could to save the Wildlings, the Night's Watch, and basically everyone, even though it did cost him his life. He didn't want to be Da King In Da Norf, but still accepted it, and went south, despite everyone warning him against it, to secure reinforcements.

Everything Daenerys does, she does for herself. Yes, even going North wasn't as selfless as some people seem to believe. On the other hand, everything Jon does he does for others. Gee, I wonder why people are starting to think he might be a better ruler. Probably because he has a cock...

[Derah]

Daenerys has been slaughtering her way to the throne since she walked out of the fire with baby dragons. Anyone who gets in her way, she kills, most often by burning them alive.

wow, there's SO MUCH WRONG in this post, I don't even know where to start.

Okay, here we go.

They've both killed a lot of people. This is true of almost everyone on this show. Jon's hands are not exactly squeaky clean. Neither were Ned's. Bronn summarized it well enough when he said that all the noble houses of Westeros began with someone being really good at killing. Kill a hundred people, you can be a lord, kill a few thousands and you can be a King. That's all there's to it to seize a throne, you kill a lot of people. Anyone can be a king once you've killed enough people. The key difference between a GOOD KING and a bad one, is who are you killing and why.

So lets recap that shall we? Danny: In season 1, killed nobody. Season 2, killed a bunch of warlocks, and assholes in Quarth but they antagonized her first by killing her people, taking her dragons, and intending to keep her hostage. It was self-defense, and notice how once she was done, she didn't burn Quarth to the ground, she didn't sack the city, she didn't put all the civilians to the torch. She just killed those who wronged her, and then she left.

Season 3, 4, 5, and 6: Slavers. Those were her victims. She dedicated years of her life fighting a war against slavers to end the horrible practice of slavery, despite every advisor she had at the time, urging her to haul ass to Westeros already and leave Slaver's Bay to its fate. Instead, she chose to stay, and help the slaves gain their freedom. She also killed the Khals of the Dothraki, a bunch of serial rapists, slavers, raiders, and reavers who had dedicated their entire civilization to enslave, rape, pillage and burn all that was along their way. Why did she kill them? Because they were slavers, and rapists, and assholes. They had it coming, and we can all agree the cities left in her wake were left better off for it.

Season 7: Only lannister soldiers. She could have unleashed the full power of her dragons in King's Landing, do to it what Aegon the Conqueror did to Harrenhall. Instead, she decided to use restraint and limited the casualties to lannister soldiers and nothing more. Ohh and the Night King, when literally NOT A SINGLE OTHER HIGH LORD IN WESTEROS gave a single measly solitary fuck about them.

Shall we take a look at Cersei's kill list and why she killed them?

Season 1: She had the entire household of Ned Stark killed. A good man who was doing what her husband would not, which is to actually rule the fucking realm, and see to the needs of the people of westeros. Why did she do this? For no other reason than he wanted to expose her lies. The guy even offered her a way out so she can't even claim self-defense, he wasn't threatening to hold her or her kids hostage, he allowed her to leave with her family. But nope, kill them all. She also arranged for the death of her husband. Why? because she didn't like him. That's all.

Season 2: Countless innocent children, including babies. Why? They were the bastards of her ex-hubby. They posed no threat to her, or her family, but she had them killed anyways. Including fucking babies.

Season 3: Nobody. She was cowed into submission by her daddy, and did nothing. She still tried to kill her brother, for no other reason than she was determined to make him die for the death of her son, despite not knowing for a fact he did it.

Seasons 4 and 5 and 6: A LOT of people died, because she was obsessed with ending the lives of the Tyrells. You know, the noble family that saved her fucking life. Stannis would have had King's Landing, and would have mounted her head and those of her children on pikes if not for the Tyrells coming to the rescue, bringing troops, and food and relief to her ravaged land. And she was so determined to see them all die, she empowered a fanatical religious cult and armed them to do whatever they wanted in king's landing, and when her plan backfired, she basically murdered a quarter of her own city, including killing off the entire spiritual pillar of the realm. And why was she so determined to end the Tyrell line? She was jealous. Nothing more. They weren't trying to kill her, nor trying to depose her family off the throne (Margerey was marrying Joff, then Tommen, whatever child was born of that union would be Baratheon, not Tyrell. She and her family would still stay in power).

Season 7: She basically sentenced the entirety of Westeros to die to the night king by refusing to participate, because her own power is more important than the lives of her people.

So now that we've analyzed who they've both killed and why, pray tell, HOW THE FUCK ARE THEY ALIKE?

It has nothing to do with "breaking the wheel"; the ONLY times she's saved the downtrodden, it was so that they would owe her, and serve her.

If this was true, she would have only bothered to save noblemen, and rich people, and people who could have otherwise contributed to her campaign to reclaim the throne. Instead, she dedicated well over 70% of this show's entire run time rescuing penniless slaves and giving them their freedom, for no other reason than because it was the right thing to do.

What has cersei done for her people? Ohh yeah, when Margerey wanted to feed them the leftovers of the outrageous wedding feast of Joff, Cersei ordered them instead of feed it to the hounds. Why? just because she could. She doesn't give a fuck about her people, a fact stated apparently enough when she blew up the sept, and then sent her personal hitman to kill random civilians just because they talked shit about her during her walk of shame.

Also, Cersei's managed to seize and hold power all by herself, whereas Dany is entirely reliant on her dragons.

hahahahano.

Cersei was at the whims of her father for the first half of the show. When she tried to seize power, it backfired spectacularly, ending up with her walk of shame. The only reason she has ANYTHING once she crawled naked out of that sept, she owes entirely to Qyburn. He's the one who discovered the caches of wildfire which allowed her to kill all her enemies in a single swoop, and also provided her with the super-zombie bodyguard she has. If not for him, she would have died countless times over, as NOBODY gives a fuck about what happens to her.

Danny on the other hand, managed to draw people to her cause, not just because lol-dragons. The Unsullied certainly don't follow her due to dragons. Nor do the Dothraki. Nor the massive crowd of liberated slaves.

If you seriously think Cersei and Danny are the same, you are the one who really needs to pay attention.

If Danny only cared about power, and only power and nothing but power, she would have stayed in the south, she wouldn't have ridden north to face the undead.

[Koriani]

As much as I can agree with others on SOME of the bad writing -

I also think some of you just want fanservice and are ignoring actual character development and actual motivations behind some of these scenes some of you are claiming "are just out of character and bad."

Because to me - I see them making perfect sense. They don't undo anything, they add to a characterization some of you are missing - IMO.

For examples:

Bri and Jamie's "parting." Everyone tossing out her crying as some lovesick teenager is totally ignoring all the character development between those characters and her ACTUAL personality. You accuse writers of doing it, but you're missing the point entirely. She's not crying because she's "aww I want the man I love to be here with me and he dumped me." No. That's not Brianne. That's not Lady Tarth. Just because they had sex a few nights doesn't even mean there's any relationship or she's in "love" - Lord Brianne isn't 15, she didn't just fall in love.

But what their friendship HAS meant is that yes - actually - she's been able to seen the Honor and "good man" inside Jamie when his sister/family isn't involved. She's seen him, time and again, "Do the Right Thing" with and around her - to know the person he "really could be." (When its he's not around his sister). She values THAT man - something no one else has ever done. She values his respect and his friendship. Whatever "love" here isn't "lost my virginity now I love you" its the love displayed when she stood in front of the Dragon Queen and vouched for Jamie when no one else would. Because she knows Jamie's "real" sense of honor- that no one else in the room had ever been around for. THIS was the plot they developed between these two characters over the last few seasons.

So when he's leaving on what she believes to be a suicide mission - of COURSE that's what happens. She's not begging him to stay because the sex changed anything - throw that the eff out because its irrelevant. She's begging him to stay because she doesn't want this "good man" to go die for a lost cause/psychosister. She wants him to finally break out of that and be the man he's always really wanted to be - that he is when his family/sister aren't in the picture. The man she's SEEN in him be since the day he lost his hand defending her. So yes, she blubbers - because one of the only friends she's had in her life, a man who really respected her in a way few others showed - is about to ride off to his doom. Is about to betray his "new queen" she vouched for him to serve - to protect a woman who has never respected him, only used him. To Bri - he's throwing his life away when he's on the edge of "redemption" - so she gets weepy/desperate because you should when you're trying to save a friend's life.

Same with Ayra/Gendry's proposal. No, its not stupid or bad writing. It makes perfect sense - if you actually follow the characterization here. Gendry's a young man (what in the show the character is early 20s maybe?) who came from a brothel, to a blacksmith - which he thought was as high he'd go. And now, suddenly, he's a Lord. He didn't grow up in that world - so he's basically like any 20 year old who hit the lottery. Young, smitten-crushin' on the girl he just slept with, getting 'all he wished for' - he thinks to go for the Gold. And doesn't realize, as most around Ayra (still) don't - that's not what Ayra wants. He thinks he's just making his "dream" complete - he got his castle, now is the best time to get that girl! Its sweet - its exactly what a love-sick teenager would do thinking his wishes just came true. And in the day and age of the show - Ayra is still a unique girl; so (to me) its easy to see why he didn't realize she wasn't going for all of that. That she really just wanted some sex. Poor kid - dawww!

Or with the Bron/Tyrion/Jamie scene. Yes - bad writing that he was even there in that room just - bam hey! Full agreement on that.

But the rest of the interaction was pretty much what I expected. Its pretty much the same interaction he's always maintained around both of those guys - "I'm just a sellsword - whomever pays me gets me." He's been that way since day one - even while the audience, Tyrion, and Jamie have also seen him be real-friend and real-good-guy despite the gold (or lack of it). But he still ALWAYS MAINTAINED and INSISTED that's why he did even the "good" things he did. And they have ALWAYS kept that going - back and forth.

So its just more of the same. Bron said all the things he always did - is on the side he's always claimed to be on (that of gold) and yes he IS motivated by getting his castle and his retirement. He is RIGHT - it would be stupid of him to walk up and kill the brothers when Cersei may not win and therefore, can give him nothing. Nothing about that exchange was out of character for him at all.

And it would be out of character for Tyrion or Jamie to then turn around and try to kill him or take him out. Because they made their counteroffer - as they ALWAYS have - knowing full well that if they win they will have to pay out, but if they lose it wont' matter either way who kills either of them.

This is the dance these three guys have enjoyed playing with EACH OTHER over the WHOLE Show. Behind the "i'm here for the gold" "shutup i'll pay you" serious banter - there's a respect here - knowing the way the world is in the GoT; that yes everyone does have to CYA and Gold Talks the Talk and Walks the Walk; but when the fighting is on - they've all had each others backs too. Bron NOT Killing them is his show of good faith - his act of friendship - to warn them what the sister is really trying for (which prompts Jamie to go back) and to remind them he's owed. But he also knows when he walks in that room to not kill them - he can still trade-in and trade-up for that Castle he's always been promised.

Bad writing the way it went down - but the conversation/interaction was true to the characters relationships as the show has portrayed them.

I don't get some of this confusion. Why some of this seemed so "out of character" when it makes perfect sense to me. Why people assume that just because Bri got sex she turned into a quibbling 15 love-struck teenager, so that's why she's crying? Why people think Gendry was bad writing when to me- its character appropriate for him to make the love-wealth-struck proposal, because that's what people do. Why people expected Bron to shoot either of the brothers he's spent so much time with in the past - or why people expect those brothers to now take him out (when nothing in their history tells them they can't trust Bron to keep his word).

Seems like its not the writers who are forgetting the characters development but lots of fans are - for their own personal wishes.

Me - bad writing Jamie even got with Bri. That whole thing was ugg to me - disrespecting all the friendship/respect developed between those characters for a soap-opera-writing-level plot development. Bri should have went with Thormond that night - plain and simple . THAT would have been "best writing" option here. All Jamie could have done was say a few words as to why Bri should give the man a chance and how much the man has been adoring on her to kick off what would have been a very satisfying plot-arc 'conclusion'.

And still could have resulted in Bri sobbing in desperation as the man she has deep respect and honor towards - rides off to his death.

[Isilrien]

...Bad writing the way it went down - but the conversation/interaction was true to the characters relationships as the show has portrayed them...

Some of the writing was coherent because it followed the previous character and plot development. However, and this is merely a difference in opinion which is bound to happen with subjective works, the show hasn't been entirely coherent. I do not agree that Brienne should have spent the night with Tormund, for example, but that the love that blossomed between her and Jaime makes more sense. I don't think you know Brienne very well if you think Jaime's encouragement to give Tormund a chance would work with her. She has little respect for or interest for him throughout the show. Granted, I like Tormund a great deal and so would like to see him happy, but my feelings have no bearing on how the relationships are actually developed and then portrayed in the show. I don't see Brienne's reaction to Jaime as akin to that of a teenager, either. It made sense to me, as did the developing love between Jaime and Brienne. I think the episodes are rushed, and so the timing is off and even awkward between the two, but that's the only criticism I might level against these particular events.

To each their own, as usual :-)

[Jastall]

Daenerys has been slaughtering her way to the throne since she walked out of the fire with baby dragons. Anyone who gets in her way, she kills, most often by burning them alive.

It has nothing to do with taking the throne back for the Targaryens; if it did, Jon's lineage wouldn't have been a threat and she could have supported his (better) claim on the throne.

It has nothing to do with "breaking the wheel"; the ONLY times she's saved the downtrodden, it was so that they would owe her, and serve her. She's not breaking the wheel, she's just replacing the person at the top, with herself.

The entire path of Daenerys has been about seeking personal power and slaughtering any and all who stand in her way. If you thought she was "the good guy", you haven't been paying attention. She and Cersei are two peas in a nasty little pod. They're both pro-incest. They're both blonde (usually irrelevant, but it stands out here). They're both willing to kill to seize/maintain power. They both lose their shit when their kids are threatened. They both make bold statements by burning enemies alive. They both have their family members killed when they get in the way.

They're practically the same character. The biggest difference is that Dany's "children" are much more useful than Cersei's ever were. Also, Cersei's managed to seize and hold power all by herself, whereas Dany is entirely reliant on her dragons. No dragons, and she's the pretty blonde girl nobody bothers to listen to, again. She doesn't have any mind for tactics or statecraft, why would she ever make a decent ruler?

I mean, everyone has been butchering their way through the story. Even complete goody two-shoes like Jon executed prisoners and hanged kids. Sansa had a guy torn apart by hounds and plays everyone around her. Let's not get started on Arya who was this close to becoming a remorseless murderer, or well liked characters like Jaime or Sandor who are remorseless murderers. Dany went from a warlord's brood mare to a contender for the throne, and there's no world where one does that without killing a lot of people in their way.

Dany is more ruthless than most, and I'm no big fan of hers nor do I want her on the throne (I want that stupid chair melted, personally). She did execute people in an over the top way, but disobedience in Westeros IS punished by swift death, even by overall nice dudes like Robb. I don't think she has been exceptionally violent or irrational so far compared to most other characters. Albeit if the episode 5 leaks are true that will soon change because the season requires some last minute melodrama.

[Endus]

I mean, everyone has been butchering their way through the story. Even complete goody two-shoes like Jon executed prisoners and hanged kids. Sansa had a guy torn apart by hounds and plays everyone around her. Let's not get started on Arya who was this close to becoming a remorseless murderer, or well liked characters like Jaime or Sandor who are remorseless murderers. Dany went from a warlord's brood mare to a contender for the throne, and there's no world where one does that without killing a lot of people in their way.

Dany is more ruthless than most, and I'm no big fan of hers nor do I want her on the throne (I want that stupid chair melted, personally). She did execute people in an over the top way, but disobedience in Westeros IS punished by swift death, even by overall nice dudes like Robb. I don't think she has been exceptionally violent or irrational so far compared to most other characters. Albeit if the episode 5 leaks are true that will soon change because the season requires some last minute melodrama.

It's more that my issue is that everyone seems to agree that Cersei is the absolute worst, and that Dany is some shining beacon of goodness.

They really are not much different from each other. And I'm not trying to argue that Cersei is fine; I'm making the case that there aren't any "good guys", in this fight. It's a matter of how awful they might be, and more importantly IMO, how eager they are to be awful. Because Daenerys is constantly being urged to hold back her impulses by those who advise her. Without Varys, Missandei, and Tyrion, she'd be far, far worse.

[Gorsameth]

It's more that my issue is that everyone seems to agree that Cersei is the absolute worst, and that Dany is some shining beacon of goodness.

They really are not much different from each other. And I'm not trying to argue that Cersei is fine; I'm making the case that there aren't any "good guys", in this fight. It's a matter of how awful they might be, and more importantly IMO, how eager they are to be awful. Because Daenerys is constantly being urged to hold back her impulses by those who advise her. Without Varys, Missandei, and Tyrion, she'd be far, far worse.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
That's why anyone with power needs people around them to keep them grounded.

[eschatological]

I mean, everyone has been butchering their way through the story. Even complete goody two-shoes like Jon executed prisoners and hanged kids. Sansa had a guy torn apart by hounds and plays everyone around her. Let's not get started on Arya who was this close to becoming a remorseless murderer, or well liked characters like Jaime or Sandor who are remorseless murderers. Dany went from a warlord's brood mare to a contender for the throne, and there's no world where one does that without killing a lot of people in their way.

Dany is more ruthless than most, and I'm no big fan of hers nor do I want her on the throne (I want that stupid chair melted, personally). She did execute people in an over the top way, but disobedience in Westeros IS punished by swift death, even by overall nice dudes like Robb. I don't think she has been exceptionally violent or irrational so far compared to most other characters. Albeit if the episode 5 leaks are true that will soon change because the season requires some last minute melodrama.

I don't think she's exceptionally violent. But she skirts the edges.

People forget, freeing the cities of Slaver's Bay wasn't the plan. Her plan was to buy the Unsullied, who, btw, she stole, since she ended up taking the dragon that was the payment back. All the slaves she freed aren't part of her army, only the Dothraki and the Unsullied were. Her ego, though, demanded these cities be subjugated, and the slaves freed, and the audience cheered for it because slavery is vile to our 21st century ideals. One thing the books did better (out of many things) than the show was show that the freed slaves were no better off under Dany than they were before. So Dany basically slaughtered thousands (of admittedly shitty people) on a power trip, but did nothing to actually improve those cities. That's what the whole Sons of the Harpy storyline was about. And for her idiocy, she lost Selmy Barristan and Strong Belwas.

In fact, those cities will probably fall back into slavery almost instantly.

Then, she doesn't follow the general "rules" of Westerosi warfare, which involves taking lords and their heirs hostage and treating them as guests. That's why Robb held Jaime Lannister after the Whispering Wood, that's why Balon Greyjoy lived after his insurrection and his son and heir Theon was taken to Winterfell as a ward, a genteel way of saying a noble hostage. That's why Cat took Tyrion instead of instantly killing him. That's why Trial by Combat even exists.

Dany continually displays an utter disregard for the small (or sometimes even major) rituals and customs of the people. It's her way or the highway, regardless if it keeps the peace or not. That's what the whole fighting pit in Mereen storyline was about. She's not a good conqueror, because half of conquering is allowing the conquered to hold on to something of their own. There are real world analogues to this, like the HRE, Alexander the Great's conquests, or the Mughals in India - once the slaughter was over, those countries were still allowed to follow what they wanted to follow, while the empires that ran them basically just exerted monetary control. This is like, the whole point of A Feast For Crows, which is why it's the least popular book among people who want the political scheming and spectacle, but really is a gem of a book in other regards.

I don't think Dany's been particularly out of line in the violence. But I think she's gonna burn KL this weekend, and the set up has been there for it, because she's always been right on the edge, and it's always been her advisers holding her back. I anticipate that Dany-fans will be super outraged by it, but like all the shallow analysis that seems to pervade this show, it won't be out of line at all.

The writing will still probably suck though.

[Jastall]

It's more that my issue is that everyone seems to agree that Cersei is the absolute worst, and that Dany is some shining beacon of goodness.

They really are not much different from each other. And I'm not trying to argue that Cersei is fine; I'm making the case that there aren't any "good guys", in this fight. It's a matter of how awful they might be, and more importantly IMO, how eager they are to be awful. Because Daenerys is constantly being urged to hold back her impulses by those who advise her. Without Varys, Missandei, and Tyrion, she'd be far, far worse.

I'm not disputing Dany's flaws too much, but I dispute that there isn't much difference between her and Cercei, who is a sadistic monster while Dany is just ruthless and overly determined. Her biggest flaw in Westeros is being a complete stranger to its customs, and unlike Aegon I not having studied the continent before invading it resulting in several poor decisions on her part. She won't be an ideal Queen by any means, but she's still going to be much better than Jon who is Ned with the serial numbers filed off. Assuming again that the Throne is still in one piece which I both doubt and don't want it to.

As for her advisors, they do rein her in, but let's be honest they hobbled her also. Tyrion in particular has been a walking, talking disaster since season 7, pretty much every plan he made ended up costing Dany more than what she gained. So her throwing his advice to the wind at this point is hardly senseless, and TBH another monarch would have dismissed, if not punished him along ago. Had Dany flown right to King's Landing and burned the Red Keep the war in the South would have been over very fast. Plus every potential monarch we've seen needed advisors around to not do something rash, at least she mostly listens to them unlike Joff or Robb.

[eschatological]

Well, making Tyrion a walking, talking disaster is on the shitty writing. It's been pointed out that Tyrion, per his character, has no reason to believe the things he does or make the bad plans he plans, except the writers can't figure out how to write a brilliant person who still fails anyways. They needed to make him dumb, to justify Dany ditching his advice when he inevitably tells her (and in fact has already told her this past episode) not to burn the civilians inside the walls of the Red Keep.

[eschatological]

The only real mistake Tyrion has made with regards to judgement is in terms of Cersei. People, even the most brilliant of us, tend to have blindspots with family. That doesn’t make someone dumb, just human.

I mean, it was his plan that got Viserion killed, his plan to have the dragonpit meeting in the first place, his plan that got the fleet mostly destroyed the first time and got Yara captured, etc, etc, etc.

Tyrion's plans have all largely failed since he spent all that time in a crate escaping King's Landing.

[Celista]

Daenerys has been slaughtering her way to the throne since she walked out of the fire with baby dragons. Anyone who gets in her way, she kills, most often by burning them alive.

It has nothing to do with taking the throne back for the Targaryens; if it did, Jon's lineage wouldn't have been a threat and she could have supported his (better) claim on the throne.

It has nothing to do with "breaking the wheel"; the ONLY times she's saved the downtrodden, it was so that they would owe her, and serve her. She's not breaking the wheel, she's just replacing the person at the top, with herself.

The entire path of Daenerys has been about seeking personal power and slaughtering any and all who stand in her way. If you thought she was "the good guy", you haven't been paying attention. She and Cersei are two peas in a nasty little pod. They're both pro-incest. They're both blonde (usually irrelevant, but it stands out here). They're both willing to kill to seize/maintain power. They both lose their shit when their kids are threatened. They both make bold statements by burning enemies alive. They both have their family members killed when they get in the way.

They're practically the same character. The biggest difference is that Dany's "children" are much more useful than Cersei's ever were. Also, Cersei's managed to seize and hold power all by herself, whereas Dany is entirely reliant on her dragons. No dragons, and she's the pretty blonde girl nobody bothers to listen to, again. She doesn't have any mind for tactics or statecraft, why would she ever make a decent ruler?

Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly but I thought that some element of Dany freeing the slaves in Slaver's Bay was driven by empathy rather than a desire to gain power, that her move was a significant step backwards from the throne. If she was merely motivated by personal power then she could have simply worked with the slavers, who would have done a much better job of maintaining economic stability in the region and creating more Unsullied for Dany's army. I do see the similarities between Dany and Cersei but I don't think it's accurate to say that they are the same person. Cersei is far less selfless and far more likely to turn against those who are supposed to be serving her, she treats them as pawns in a game. Dany's overreactions have been due to loyalty and morality, sans burning the Tullys. She is far more emotionally invested in those around her and Cersei is far more cold and cunning. The show is revealing that both are faults.

[StayTuned]

I mean, it was his plan that got Viserion killed, his plan to have the dragonpit meeting in the first place, his plan that got the fleet mostly destroyed the first time and got Yara captured, etc, etc, etc.

Tyrion's plans have all largely failed since he spent all that time in a crate escaping King's Landing.

I ask myself how their plans are constantly getting leaked though.

Who told Euron when and where Dany will be going with her Dragons and the unsullied after they left the north?

It's like fog of war doesn't even exist in this universe. The level of intel anyone there (except of course the "good" guys) has is some next level CIA shit.

[Gorsameth]

I ask myself how their plans are constantly getting leaked though.

Who told Euron when and where Dany will be going with her Dragons and the unsullied after they left the north?

It's like fog of war doesn't even exist in this universe. The level of intel anyone there (except of course the "good" guys) has is some next level CIA shit.

Any old spy can see an army getting on ships and Dragonstone is a fortresss at the mouth of the way to King's Landing. Any army seeking to get to the capital by boat has to pass by it.

[GreenJesus]

Finally SOMEONE notices the astrolabe. I was beginning to think I was crazy for seeing four dragons there and being ignored when I asked for people's thoughts.

Pretty sure it's just Dany being represented as the mommy dragon with her 3 dragon children.

[Spike`]

not sure if posted

[IIamaKing]

They're both blonde

https://yarn.co/yarn-clip/61772341-8...XliXOSmhV.copy


Made me think of this moment lol.

[Gorsameth]

not sure if posted

Ofcourse the actors can see the stupid things that are happening to their characters and the story in general. But that don't have any say in that usually.
its pretty obvious that the writing on GoT is not a big collaborate effort because of how obvious the flaws are.

There is no way people didn't see them while filming it.

[Koriani]

Some of the writing was coherent because it followed the previous character and plot development. However, and this is merely a difference in opinion which is bound to happen with subjective works, the show hasn't been entirely coherent. I do not agree that Brienne should have spent the night with Tormund, for example, but that the love that blossomed between her and Jaime makes more sense. I don't think you know Brienne very well if you think Jaime's encouragement to give Tormund a chance would work with her. She has little respect for or interest for him throughout the show. Granted, I like Tormund a great deal and so would like to see him happy, but my feelings have no bearing on how the relationships are actually developed and then portrayed in the show. I don't see Brienne's reaction to Jaime as akin to that of a teenager, either. It made sense to me, as did the developing love between Jaime and Brienne. I think the episodes are rushed, and so the timing is off and even awkward between the two, but that's the only criticism I might level against these particular events.

To each their own, as usual :-)

Ooh of course - all opinion. And I agree with some of your points on the negatives of Thorn/Bri hookup.

I just also don't buy into the "aww its love" just because Jamie took her virginity and they started having sex. I don't get that from this relationship at all.

Because I don't forget Jamie's fatal flaw is his love/devotion to his Sister. What he told Bri when he left was ALSO true - even if he may be going to take his sister out himself (which I don't feel will be 'good writing' unless its in a 'no way out' situation/mercy kill). When I saw Jamie walking back after Bri admitted to being a virgin - him just starting to strip - assuming she's going to "want" this - I saw the earlier Jamie. I saw the Charming Player, already believing/assuming he's the best possible bed option among the choices, going to "give this to her." As it were. I don't believe the writing if its trying to portray this as now a portrayal of some deeper love (If that is what they were trying to do). No, his motives/intentions weren't as "bad" as what I said above - because they are friends - but I didn't see that as Jamie being in love either.

A deep trust and friendship - sure. But LOVE Romantic LOVE - that's what I don't buy. Not yet in their relationship anyway - and with the show about to be over, that's all they're gonna get.(lol)

And while no, a simple conversation from Jamie shouldn't be enough to convince Bri - not at all. But in the setup of the scene as written - with the idea that "ok Bri's sleepin with someone tonight!" from the writers - its just as good "logic" to me as her agreeing to sleep with Jamie.

I loved him knighting her - that was solid, that made sense and was especially touching given their friendship and the respect each has earned from the rest. To follow-up with how this sex scene played out between them - to me - just another example of good/bad writing. Started strong - but then wimped out with soap-opera writing.

But yea - all opinions . It certainly doesn't bug me half as much as other examples of truly bad writing this season/last season.

It more...bugs me (?)... that so many people think just because this woman is crying they just throw it all out as "oh now she's all love-sick female needing her man... bad writing.." To me that reflects more on the viewer experience and opinions rather than the actual portrayal of what happened in that scene (given her actual character history) - and so many people jumping to that conclusion strikes me as sad... for humanity in general. heh.

[StayTuned]

Any old spy can see an army getting on ships and Dragonstone is a fortresss at the mouth of the way to King's Landing. Any army seeking to get to the capital by boat has to pass by it.

They had Varys. Who has better intel than ANYONE else and yet since he's been with Dany, he was essentially useless.

"Any old spy" really doesn't sound like Cersei should have the upper hand here in terms of intel. Unless it was Varys himself who set it in motion I'm calling bullshit. Or unless they would let Euron sit for months at the same spot awaiting them based on some sort of suspicion - which again sounds like a stretch from a tactical point of view.

I also have no idea or even just a feeling how much time passed since NK battle and the parley....