Loot distribution in 40 man

[Coldfrostzero]

DKP can produce drama, that is for sure: Players deliberately trying to bid up others to try to get them to spend their DKP, or players forming cliques with an agreement not to bid against each other on certain drops so that they can burn their DKP on something they are after, and so on. Of course, if a Loot Council descends into personal favoritism or gives items to players in a relatively clueless way, that's bad. Which system produces relatively less drama? It depends on how the system is administered and policed. Both DKP and Loot Council can work well and both can work badly.
It's the loot that generates the drama!

Which is why Suicide Kings is less drama. You want an item and you're higher on the list? Its yours, but you go to the bottom of the list and someone else moves up. You can be greedy and take 3-4 items in a row nobody wants, but the minute someone else needs something and they are higher than you on the list, they get it and drop below you and the cycle starts anew.

Suicide Kings is DKP minus all the work and once you request an item it is awarded to you. No need to figure out who the highest bidder is and rolls or whatever. If someone is upset over how loot was distributed, they have only to look at their own greedy self.

[Oneer]

Which is why Suicide Kings is less drama. You want an item and you're higher on the list? Its yours, but you go to the bottom of the list and someone else moves up. You can be greedy and take 3-4 items in a row nobody wants, but the minute someone else needs something and they are higher than you on the list, they get it and drop below you and the cycle starts anew.

Does Suicide Kings use a decay mechanic? One of the big problems with pro-active currency based systems w/o decay is certain players will put personal desires for specific items (weapons &/or trinkets 90% of the time) ahead of the raid group and pass upgrades to hoard for said items, worst case scenario you're disenchanting upgrades for that player if nobody else wants it just so they can get a specific item while gimping themselves long-term.

[Coldfrostzero]

Does Suicide Kings use a decay mechanic? One of the big problems with pro-active currency based systems w/o decay is certain players will put personal desires for specific items (weapons &/or trinkets 90% of the time) ahead of the raid group and pass upgrades to hoard for said items, worst case scenario you're disenchanting upgrades for that player if nobody else wants it just so they can get a specific item while gimping themselves long-term.

I think the attendance decay is not a thing in Suicide Kings, but it can be set up with a simple rule of "you miss X weeks without notice, you drop to the bottom of the list until you return." You can also remove them from the list and put them back in when they return. I could be wrong or there could be a setting, I'm not the raid leader in my guild and obviously with personal loot being the only option now, we've adjusted how we handle loot to what most groups do: "If you can trade it, offer it for out, if not well that sucks."

The point is to self impose being less greedy. If they chose to skip an upgrade to get something else that is an upgrade, that's the person's decision. You can also set things to offspec/greed roll which doesn't drop someone from the list allowing items that are upgrades to still be distributed. If you chose not to main spec roll it, you can't be salty if someone else gets the item. You took the risk thinking that nobody else was going to want it anyway.

[Soisoisoi]

The best system for high progression will always be Loot Council funneling gear to specific specs/comps.

The best system for anything else will be the likes of EPGP with specific tweaks, such as the ones I used for mine when I last raided, alongside Loot Council for tier bonus (RIP), OP trinkets for specific specs etc. Change as you see fit for the progression type of the guild of course, bearing in mind this was for a Legion guiild not Vanilla.

• EP for being on-time (early) for the raid.
• EP every 15 minutes
• EP for every boss kill
• 2x boss kill EP for every new boss kill.
• Leaving raid without decent reason (rage quit) causes you to lose all EP gained in that raid.
• Lose EP for not turning up
• Weekly decaying (~20%). This stops hoarding EPGP - spend it or lose it. It means people don't ignore upgrades for the sake of bigger upgrades, wasting overall loot.
• Partial (~75%) resets on each new raid - This allows people who raided right until the end of the previous tier to gain benefit over those who are new or stopped raiding after end boss kills (those who keep raids going), but not so much so that people can't catch up. For us it ended up being an item or two at most.

However, all of that takes a fair bit of setup and effort. Definitely worth it in the end though IMO.

With that said, Tanks being loot whores is nothing new, difference in Vanilla is that there will be more tanks than tank spots for raiding. So no, they can't pick and choose. For 5 mans they're basically gods though, no luck there.

[Malacrass]

I would accept a mild loot council for tanks, Thunderfury and Atiesh, since you simply can't reason against the gear going to the most devoted members of the guild (GM, top officers etc.)

But everything else should be based on DKP or a system similiar to DKP. It doesn't matter that the raid will lose a bit of efficiency, it's more important that every member feels that he or she is being treated fairly based on their efforts. Guild drama hinders progression more than the lack of a completed tier set on your top raider.

If a guild advertises itself with something like "A core group of experienced Vanilla WoW raiders" + "Loot council" I wouldn't even bother reading past the first sentence.

[Firebert]

That doesn't work in classic as there were a lot of leather pieces that are BIS for DPS warriors.

They can't be BIS if they're not plate as far as I am concerned.

[Soisoisoi]

They can't be BIS if they're not plate as far as I am concerned.

So you're going against a fact because you don't agree with it? That's a bit stupid, honestly.

[Coldfrostzero]

They can't be BIS if they're not plate as far as I am concerned.

I do hope nobody lets you be Loot Master then. That or you'll see a lot of DPS quit because they can't get the gear they want, because you don't know what you're doing.

[AeneasBK]

However, all of that takes a fair bit of setup and effort. Definitely worth it in the end though IMO.

With only a tiny adjustment (3x for new bosses, EP awarded per hour not 15 min, 90% between tiers) that was exactly how we ran it from Wrath up till WoD.

[Bublex]

They can't be BIS if they're not plate as far as I am concerned.

You, sir, are wrong and it makes me really sad there are people who think the same way you do.
I wish you all the Best and hope we never meet in a raid or a dungeon

[Soisoisoi]

With only a tiny adjustment (3x for new bosses, EP awarded per hour not 15 min, 90% between tiers) that was exactly how we ran it from Wrath up till WoD.

Yup, easy enough to tweak to personal needs. We had it 15mins because we had people showing up 10m late or leaving a bit early, so missing an hour's worth was a bit of a pain when we knew in advance they'd get in from work and get on ASAP, through no real fault of their own, so it felt like we were punishing them for it. Same for the others, just do what fits really.

[Oneer]

They can't be BIS if they're not plate as far as I am concerned.

You're actually correct here but this only applies in retail, from the pre-cata patch onward (4.0.1) Blizzard introduced a primary stat % bonus for wearing your highest armour class to encourage the use of full plate as historically DPS plate was infamous for having it's ilv budget exponentially spent on stamina (possibly the armor rating too but don't quote me on that) compared with equivalent mail & leather gear.

Given mail pre-cata often came with intellect Warriors min-maxing would often use leather pieces in slots where the equivilant DPS plate item had garbage itemisation or in Vanilla & TBC where there was no option.

[willemh]

You're actually correct here but this only applies in retail, from the pre-cata patch onward (4.0.1) Blizzard introduced a primary stat % bonus for wearing your highest armour class to encourage the use of full plate as historically DPS plate was infamous for having it's ilv budget exponentially spent on stamina (possibly the armor rating too but don't quote me on that) compared with equivalent mail & leather gear.

Given mail pre-cata often came with intellect Warriors min-maxing would often use leather pieces in slots where the equivilant DPS plate item had garbage itemisation or in Vanilla & TBC where there was no option.

There is another argument however.

For a guild that wants to gear up its members as efficient as possible (aka a very serious, hardcore, guild) the fact remains that warriors can wear both plate AND leather, and rogues can't wear plate.

So if the choice is to give leather item x to your rogue, and plate item y to your warrior, or giving leather item x to your warrior and disenchant plate item y, then that choice is easily made, no matter what the BIS list looks like.

It's also unfair for a rogue that warriors would be able to take all plate items extremely cheap because they have no competition, and would end up in a dkp bidding war against warriors for their leather items.

So IMO a priority for rogues both makes the most sense, and is also the most efficient thing to do for a hardcore guild. Same is true for cloth healer gear etc. Ofcourse warriors would be able to get the gear afterwards!

The only exception is if there is no actual plate equivalent of an item, aka the plate item would be disenchanted either way because a random dungeon blue beats it. In that case the argument can be made both the rogue and warrior have equal rights but the moment there is a plate upgrade available in the raid the rogue should have prio.

[Soisoisoi]

There is another argument however.

For a guild that wants to gear up its members as efficient as possible (aka a very serious, hardcore, guild) the fact remains that warriors can wear both plate AND leather, and rogues can't wear plate.

So if the choice is to give leather item x to your rogue, and plate item y to your warrior, or giving leather item x to your warrior and disenchanting plate item y, then that choice is easily made, no matter what the BIS list looks like.

It's also unfair for a rogue that warriors would be able to take all plate items extremely cheap because they have no competition, and would end up in a dkp bidding war against warriors for their leather items.

So IMO a priority for rogues both makes the most sense, and is also the most efficient thing to do for a hardcore guild. Same is true for cloth healer gear etc.

The fact that Warriors do more damage, increasing their damage increases raid damage more than increasing a Rogue's damage would. The plate item would still get used, probably on something like an alt/many of the other warriors lower in priority. It's always a raid gain.

[willemh]

The fact that Warriors do more damage, increasing their damage increases raid damage more than increasing a Rogue's damage would. The plate item would still get used, probably on something like an alt/many of the other warriors lower in priority. It's always a raid gain.

Your first argument is fair, your second argument is false. Unless the balance between your rogues and warriors is way off, a time will come where that plate item won't be used. My argument stands no matter if you have 1 warrior and 1 rogue, or 8 warriors and 8 rogues.

If my argument, or your first argument is stronger in terms of total damage output is easily simulated, but I don't think the damage gap between rogues and warriors is that huge that it would warrant prioritizing your warriors to such a degree that your rogues are completely ignored in the gearing process. If it is, why is anyone even playing rogue?

[Soisoisoi]

Your first argument is fair, your second argument is false. Unless the balance between your rogues and warriors is way off, a time will come where that plate item won't be used. My argument stands no matter if you have 1 warrior and 1 rogue, or 8 warriors and 8 rogues.

If my argument, or your first argument is stronger in terms of total damage output is easily simulated, but I don't think the damage gap between rogues and warriors is that huge that it would warrant prioritizing your warriors to such a degree that your rogues are completely ignored in the gearing process. If it is, why is anyone even playing rogue?

If it comes down to 7 of the 8 Warriors having it already then sure then your argument takes over and it'll be a net gain. Other than that, it's probably not worth it but that's where EPGP/DKP/Loot Council or whatever the guild will use comes into play to sort it out. Hopefully Raidbots/SimC will "update" to work for Classic.

[Tojara]

In reality, the difference between rogues/warriors isn't monumental enough to really matter, just take your best players that show up the most and it will be 'fine'.

While items like DFT from BWL are really good, items like hand of justice and the 2% crit trinket are also super fucking amazing as well. Upgrade? Yeah, but not a massive upgrade at all. There's zero competition between rogues and warriors when it comes to daggers, and arms warriors are fine for the first two tiers as well. When I did Vanilla back when it first released I didn't remember massive amounts of competition between rogues and warriors, because there was still plenty of plate pieces that were itemized fine for fury and a lot of pieces in AQ40 were itemized really well. Deathmantle wasn't that amazing for rogues, whereas Bonescythe was. The opposite was true for DPS warriors generally.

The whole plate and mail wearing massive amounts of leather took place mainly in TBC as I remember it. Did you see it in Vanilla, yeah. Was it rampant? Not really.

Rogues work really well with budget gear TBH. Aged core leather gauntlets are BiS for the entire expansion, with two blue trinkets being particularly amazing. The only serious overlaps are on rings and neck TBH, and some weapons if you're going combat as a rogue. Thankfully there are plenty of nice one handed axes that rogues simply can't use, that fury warriors can. Don't remember when, but there are two insanely well itemized plate pieces you can craft that drop off world bosses (Helm/Pants IIRC).

Realistically the only gearing goals your guild should have is gearing your MT and a primary OT. All of your additional DPS warriors are going to be fed plate that nobody wants over a several month period, so that they are ready when you actually have bosses that require more than two tanks (a lot of bosses can be done with a couple tanks).

[sourlol]

It’s classic wow in 2019. All tanks should put in the effort to get gear prior to first mc run. Same with healers and dps.

Dumping 8/8 might then 2/8 Wrath on your mt isn’t needed to clear ony/rag week 2. It certainly isn’t needed when scrub guild #1845 starts during the 4th month.

All loot should be dolled out according to your guilds loot system, but prioritizing the MT—save making sure Thunderfury goes to a tank in the first place, is just not needed. All tanks should be more than capable skill wise to MT, all tanks should be able to play any MT, OT or whatever role. So giving gear to tank #3 first shouldn’t matter, as #3 can just take the mt role while he is the best geared, and your “designated” mt should be just as capable on the OT job.

[Oneer]

There is another argument however.

For a guild that wants to gear up its members as efficient as possible (aka a very serious, hardcore, guild) the fact remains that warriors can wear both plate AND leather, and rogues can't wear plate.

So if the choice is to give leather item x to your rogue, and plate item y to your warrior, or giving leather item x to your warrior and disenchant plate item y, then that choice is easily made, no matter what the BIS list looks like.

It's also unfair for a rogue that warriors would be able to take all plate items extremely cheap because they have no competition, and would end up in a dkp bidding war against warriors for their leather items.

So IMO a priority for rogues both makes the most sense, and is also the most efficient thing to do for a hardcore guild. Same is true for cloth healer gear etc. Ofcourse warriors would be able to get the gear afterwards!

The only exception is if there is no actual plate equivalent of an item, aka the plate item would be disenchanted either way because a random dungeon blue beats it. In that case the argument can be made both the rogue and warrior have equal rights but the moment there is a plate upgrade available in the raid the rogue should have prio.

The good news for rogues & ferals in classic is when it comes to the actual raid loot there's only a few instances where warriors will actually want leather, it's pretty much just the strength bracers in MC, possibly the str/stam BWL chest & the leather boots off Nef as a side-option from the plate boots off Chrom, all of which Rogues don't normally go for vs their tier set. TBC had significantly more leather BiS items for warriors in comparison.

pre-raid bis there's a fair bit more leather that DPS warriors will want however i'd expect warriors wanting to roll on it to be up-front at the start of the dungeon to avoid drama.

[Yhvh]

Ah, the days when guild drama happened about loot.