Why does it take so long to get obvious things players want?

[ro9ue]

Do you think it's actually intentional for the game to be more of a pain in the ass than it should be?

Seriously though. Legion legendaries. Since LAUNCH of 7.0... people wanted a currency. I think I even remember people asking during beta for targeting collection methods. The entire expansion goes by, finally a currency.

People always liked upgrading their gear. For years, they remove it and we finally get something like that back with 8.2.

I'm sure everyone can come up with a few other examples.

My questions are:

• Does it feel like the WoW devs have to constantly re-learn what players want?
• Is it intentional to make aggravating things to extend content?
• Do they think they know better?

PVP vendors?

"Players don't know where the vendor is"

Just do an intro quest to show people where to go or talk to a guard... these methods have been in the game for years.


I was interested in resubbing for 8.2, but occasionally I think about all of the really dumb things about the game and I'm like nah I'll stick to something else.

[arkanon]

SNIP.

I dont hate Blizzard, but their complacency and the level to which they are out of touch with their core player base is astounding at times, but nothing new. I dont even need to explain, Blizzard do it for us on a regular basis:

"you think you do, but you dont"
"the players dont actually know what they want"
"Players often think they want something, but in reality, they end up becoming bored and quitting"
"dont you guys have phones?"

[MrKnubbles]

Sometimes the things players want are bad for the game or don't fit with the goals Blizzard has for us. You can't really get mad because they didn't do what you want.

[Stickiler]

• Does it feel like the WoW devs have to constantly re-learn what players want?
• Is it intentional to make aggravating things to extend content?
• Do they think they know better?

No, the Devs know exactly what the players want, which is a currency, but also no currency(because that's a grind), and for bigger and more complex raids, but also to stop focusing on raids and give more outdoor content, etc etc.

Basically, the playerbase is made up of a shitload of different players and playstyles, and the developers have to sort through the feedback they've received and work out what stuff fits in their vision for the game, and the best way to implement the changes. Something that is aggravating to you might be someone elses preferred playstyle.

And regardless of whether they know better(because humans are fallible), they know _more_ than we do, because they have access to a wide array of statistics and metrics around which activities players do the most.

[Kyphael]

It's hard to please everyone when your player base is so polarizing. So many different groups asking for different things. With that said, I do think Ion is a short sighted arrogant jerk off and that Alex Afrasiabi would make a better Game Director.

[Flurryfang]

When you make changes to a big game like WoW, you better be sure, that it is something that is needed. I think changes outside of expansions are extremly higher up on this scale than changes coming at expansion launch.

And things are not always simple. The Legion Artifact vendor changed the entire theme of Legendaries. Blizzard wanted them to be like Epic drops back in Vanilla, so if you make it into a currency, its not really that anymore.
The same with upgrading gear. Its not a universal loved thing. It had its problems in MoP, where when you got gear from a raid, it would often be worse than what you had, because you had to upgrade it first.

It is really about design philosphy and not just making things, that EVERY player wants. Just because it is obivious 100% good things for you, does not mean that they aren't bad or disruptive for other parts of the game.

[ro9ue]

Sometimes the things players want are bad for the game or don't fit with the goals Blizzard has for us. You can't really get mad because they didn't do that you want.

Which is why I said the obvious things where players have overwhelmingly wanted it, and it's not added until years later. And then the community is happy... and it's removed again.

I'm not talking about "buff shamans".

[Swnem]

Due to the toxicity, the devs closed themselves in a bubble. Community managers are supposed to give the info, but they obviously don't or it's ignored by the devs without the proper entonation.

Blizzard devs are closed off in their little space and think they are the best. Player input is unecessary, watching what the competition does is unecessary unless they are sucessful in the levels of a Fortnite.

I think it's all a consequence of people blaming Ghostcrawler for everything. You might've not agreed with him, but he was the model of good communication and since we got all the entitled trolls in WoW, they will blame the face they see for everything. Not unlike what people do with Ion now, even though he speaks a lot less than ghostcrawler did.

So, for big outrages to register, you won't see a response to for at least 6 months cause they also structure their content delivery in big patches rather than something every 2 or 3 months in a smaller scale.

[potis]

Do you think it's actually intentional for the game to be more of a pain in the ass than it should be?

Seriously though. Legion legendaries. Since LAUNCH of 7.0... people wanted a currency. I think I even remember people asking during beta for targeting collection methods. The entire expansion goes by, finally a currency.

People always liked upgrading their gear. For years, they remove it and we finally get something like that back with 8.2.

I'm sure everyone can come up with a few other examples.

My questions are:

• Does it feel like the WoW devs have to constantly re-learn what players want?
• Is it intentional to make aggravating things to extend content?
• Do they think they know better?

PVP vendors?

"Players don't know where the vendor is"

Just do an intro quest to show people where to go or talk to a guard... these methods have been in the game for years.


I was interested in resubbing for 8.2, but occasionally I think about all of the really dumb things about the game and I'm like nah I'll stick to something else.

I will say the same i said in another post.

The minority that outcries is irrelevant to them in 99.9% of the cases, i leave the 0.1% for the actual problems.

For the 100k people that will cry dear murder about a certain legendary dropping that wont let them do a warcraftlog of 100% but 98% instead, there are <a number bigger than 150million created accounts up until 2012> that doesnt care.

And the feeling of "WOW A LEGENDARY!!!!" of those <more than 150million accounts> is more important to them than the average crying minority.

They explained that multiple times back then.

[potis]

snip

Great example,and how do you look past the cesspool of feedback, from pretty much 90% being in the end.

"I just want to do the top damage always without having to play as hard".

Cause thats what 90% of the class complains and requests are in the end part.

[seleri]

The simple answer is that it isn't simple.

What players want isn't always best for the game and for every player that wants something there's probably one that doesn't want it.

Look at allied races. There's a 500+ page thread on this forum with people that want High Elves and people that vehemently argue against them. Whether it's on this site or others, you can find similar threads on flying, housing, leveling, and pretty much whatever issue you can think of. That doesn't even take into account all of the players that don't use forums/twitter.

[Spazlord]

I don't want a gear currency / vendor. Players who like boring game systems want that. How do you get currency? Repetitive, boring, un-challenging world content. Fuck off with that shit.

Random gem sockets and TF/WF is balls too.

I want to slay difficult dragons for random drops, roll on it with my mates, work towards a good set, the raiding way, the best way.

[Sumskittles]

Man, all I want is more customization for ALL characters, not just allied races as a cheap cop out. Let us really make ourselves standout. Doesnt seem like that's gonna happen anytime soon.

[Spriggs]

Because the content pipeline is set in stone months and months ahead of time. 8.2 was presented nearly 8 months ago at Blizzcon and not much changed outside the new Azerite and essence systems. They can't take in feedback and make a turnaround that quickly.

Also because some things the community suggests are just... dumb.

[Soon-TM]

Good things like those you list are typically lost because a small but loud community of tryhards whines every other expansion about the things they're "forced" to do so Blizzard removes whatever "forces" them to do it. And everyone else pays the price.

The sooner Blizzard stops listening to anyone that claims to be "forced" to do anything, the sooner the game will just be better consistently for the majority.

I've heard this "loud minority" thing thousands of time (which is nothing but a minor variation of the "silent majority" fallacy)... But no one ever has said why someone who doesn't say anything should be against (or in favour of) a proposed change.

[cparle87]

Sometimes the things players want are bad for the game or don't fit with the goals Blizzard has for us. You can't really get mad because they didn't do what you want.

Took the words right out of my mouth. People need to keep their egos in check and consider that what they want may not be what the majority want, or even what a vocal minority are asking for. Just look at the classic forums and the constant arguments about what "real" classic is.

- - - Updated - - -

I've heard this "loud minority" thing thousands of time (which is nothing but a minor variation of the "silent majority" fallacy)... But no one ever has said why someone who doesn't say anything should be against (or in favour of) a proposed change.

In MoP there were over 100 million WoW accounts made according to the statistics article they released. If there was a megathread about some big issue, like flying, and every person who ever made an mmo-champs account came and voted one way, that would still be far less than 1%. What we have are single people, or a group of people, coming onto the forums and broadcasting what THEY want as what the player base wants.

[Soon-TM]

Took the words right out of my mouth. People need to keep their egos in check and consider that what they want may not be what the majority want, or even what a vocal minority are asking for. Just look at the classic forums and the constant arguments about what "real" classic is.

- - - Updated - - -



In MoP there were over 100 million WoW accounts made according to the statistics article they released. If there was a megathread about some big issue, like flying, and every person who ever made an mmo-champs account came and voted one way, that would still be far less than 1%. What we have are single people, or a group of people, coming onto the forums and broadcasting what THEY want as what the player base wants.

Of course us forum dwellers ARE a minority, but the that line about anyone not writing in a forum being for (or against, for that matter) the statu quo is just a huge non sequitur. And that goes beyond the merit of what is being said, which is always a quite YMMV thing.

[FelPlague]

Do you think it's actually intentional for the game to be more of a pain in the ass than it should be?

Seriously though. Legion legendaries. Since LAUNCH of 7.0... people wanted a currency. I think I even remember people asking during beta for targeting collection methods. The entire expansion goes by, finally a currency.

People always liked upgrading their gear. For years, they remove it and we finally get something like that back with 8.2.

I'm sure everyone can come up with a few other examples.

My questions are:

• Does it feel like the WoW devs have to constantly re-learn what players want?
• Is it intentional to make aggravating things to extend content?
• Do they think they know better?

PVP vendors?

"Players don't know where the vendor is"

Just do an intro quest to show people where to go or talk to a guard... these methods have been in the game for years.


I was interested in resubbing for 8.2, but occasionally I think about all of the really dumb things about the game and I'm like nah I'll stick to something else.

if they added a currency it would become "kill all things then buy your item" instead of "this boss has a chance to drop my item i should do it"


issue is if you add currencies for PVP while letting PVP gear be good in PVE then PVE players will be forced into PVP
if you add vendors for legendaries people would have spammed for weeks, gotten their first 2, then just... nwever farmed again... it removes the excitemtn of 'OH SHIT a legendary drop!"



yes currencies are nice, used in small amounts like the azerite vendor, but adding vendors to everything makes it a progressive game, not an RPG

"If i do my X Y and Z i will have this by C date... Then by B date i will be BIS!"
while cool, it removes the thing we have had since vanilla "oh shit my item dropped yeaaaaah!!!!"

[ro9ue]

if they added a currency it would become "kill all things then buy your item" instead of "this boss has a chance to drop my item i should do it"


issue is if you add currencies for PVP while letting PVP gear be good in PVE then PVE players will be forced into PVP
if you add vendors for legendaries people would have spammed for weeks, gotten their first 2, then just... nwever farmed again... it removes the excitemtn of 'OH SHIT a legendary drop!"



yes currencies are nice, used in small amounts like the azerite vendor, but adding vendors to everything makes it a progressive game, not an RPG

"If i do my X Y and Z i will have this by C date... Then by B date i will be BIS!"
while cool, it removes the thing we have had since vanilla "oh shit my item dropped yeaaaaah!!!!"

The legendary system at the end had a vendor AND RNG. So you could get the exciting drop AND also work towards a specific item. Best of both worlds.

[FelPlague]

The legendary system at the end had a vendor AND RNG. So you could get the exciting drop AND also work towards a specific item. Best of both worlds.

that was at the end of the expansion, when they no longer really mattered, and again issue is it just becomes the currency and the random item is "yay i got a legendary! but it doesent matter cause its not the one i was going to buy"

when there was no currency, any legendary was good, yes if it wasnt the one you wanted you were sad "its not the one i wanted... but hey atleast i have a better chance of getting the one i want now!"

but with currency it literally just becomes "oh i got a legendary... not the one i wanted thoguh so i still gotta farm currency"
it is nice to have slow and constant progression that you work towards, but if its the entire game then people will cry "TIME GATING!!!"

trust me, if that vendor had been in from the start, people owuld have cried "TIME GATING, TIME GATING, I NEED X WEEKS TO GET MY LEGENDARY!!!"

Hell people call the azerite vendors "TIME GATING!!!"