Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Noxx79]

And then you look at something like child separation and they just sort of assume that Trump and Co. want to split families to cause suffering. They sort of act like human trafficking isn't a thing, that it's just a fig leaf for racism, it doesn't really exist. That people who immigrate illegally haven't been told that they have better chances in their asylum claim if they have a child with them.

So no surprise that 30% of adults weren't related to the children they had with them. If this were the Obama administration we'd be talking about how important it is to make sure children aren't being victimized by predators and human traffickers. There are stories about the unique suffering young children face in this regard. But it's not Obama, it's Trump, so it's just racist Trump who hates brown kids and wants to see them suffer. Just the worst, most vitriolic accusation possible because of course it is. 24/7 outrage until he's gone.

Are you going to address where you’ve been proven wrong or just continue to whine like a bitch?

[Elegiac]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...re/1642869001/

Sometimes I feel like the best argument for why Hillary would have been better for the country is that we wouldn't have to deal with all of this freaking out 24/7 over what would normally be a measured discussion. It's like if they throw a big enough fit it sort of becomes the better choice to vote for Hillary simply due to the massive discord they spread 24/7. And the worst part is that most of the stuff they're freaking out about happened other times before Trump was even in office, it's just that nobody cared.

Like the conditions at ICE detention facilities: https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...725-story.html

It just never made a stir because they like Obama. Trump takes over the same overloaded and problematic conditions and it's the Holocaust.

What an absolutely disgusting thing to say. No, Dacien, people were in fact highly upset with Obama's immigration policies; you lot were too busy freaking out about FEMA Camps and bitching about Obamacare to pay attention, clearly.

Herein is the key difference: with your boy's immigration policy, the cruelty is a feature, not a bug. That is why people are up in arms. You can try to pin the blame on the Democrats for stonewalling border funding or whatever, as is your way, but it doesn't change the fact that they have no reason to compromise when they have no guarantee the money they approve will go towards actually helping these people. The GOP has shown utter contempt for the rule of law, so even if the border funding was explicit we, again, have no guarantee you won't simply renege and leave these asylum seekers to rot while spending money on the Great Wall of Whina.

The truly amusing thing? The attempt at ignorance. We've been predicting for years that as the administration went off the rails people would start trying to revise history by claiming they either voted for Johnson, or didn't vote, or "I was just voting against Hillary :<" , and here we have it. You were warned repeatedly from the minute Trump looked likely to be the candidate of the costs. The coarsening of discourse, the partisan rift, the resort to increasingly escalating measures.

And for what? Pumping a few more years of life into a decrepit vision of American society that is neither feasible nor popular? You would have been better off voting for Hillary and enjoying a few more years of being able to bitch about milquetoast neoliberalism while the Republican Party figured out a way to be less noxious to the voting public. Instead you now have an increasingly vigorous and energised left who are managing to successfully conflate the entire edifice of Reagan era America with racism, bigotry, and elitism.

Hope it was worth it, bud.

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And then you look at something like child separation and they just sort of assume that Trump and Co. want to split families to cause suffering. They sort of act like human trafficking isn't a thing, that it's just a fig leaf for racism, it doesn't really exist. That people who immigrate illegally haven't been told that they have better chances in their asylum claim if they have a child with them.

So no surprise that 30% of adults weren't related to the children they had with them. If this were the Obama administration we'd be talking about how important it is to make sure children aren't being victimized by predators and human traffickers. There are stories about the unique suffering young children face in this regard. But it's not Obama, it's Trump, so it's just racist Trump who hates brown kids and wants to see them suffer. Just the worst, most vitriolic accusation possible because of course it is. 24/7 outrage until he's gone.

I'm curious why you're spending so much energy trying to deflect blame from Trump rather than, like....being angry because your beloved republic is running concentration camps.

[Dacien]

The truly amusing thing? The attempt at ignorance. We've been predicting for years that as the administration went off the rails people would start trying to revise history by claiming they either voted for Johnson, or didn't vote, or "I was just voting against Hillary :<" , and here we have it. You were warned repeatedly from the minute Trump looked likely to be the candidate of the costs. The coarsening of discourse, the partisan rift, the resort to increasingly escalating measures.

Yeah but that's all on you guys. It's like the new strategy. "If we lose, you'll regret it." Now I'll admit, Obama was no cakewalk. We had a lot of crap flung from the right, no doubt about it. But I would argue it was just a bit more than normal. This, however, is on a whole new level. Unironically claiming that we're entering the beginning stages of the Holocaust.

[Noxx79]

Yeah but that's all on you guys. It's like the new strategy. "If we lose, you'll regret it." Now I'll admit, Obama was no cakewalk. We had a lot of crap flung from the right, no doubt about it. But I would argue it was just a bit more than normal. This, however, is on a whole new level.

Because trump is abnormal.

There is Nothing normal about his presidency.

Obama didn’t make policy by tweet.

Obama didn’t have most of his inner circle quit in a year and a half.

Obama didn’t have any cabinet members plead guilty to lying to the fbi.

Why can’t you understand that the reason trump gets shit flung at him is because he is dangerous?

Actually I know the reason:

The years of Fox News and conservative whining about liberals have GROOMED you to think that attacks are without base.

You’re lie the frog in the boiling water. What’s sad is you can’t even see it.

[Togashii]

Because trump is abnormal.

There is Nothing normal about his presidency.

Obama didn’t make policy by tweet.

Obama didn’t have most of his inner circle quit in a year and a half.

Obama didn’t have any cabinet members plead guilty to lying to the fbi.

Why can’t you understand that the reason trump gets shit flung at him is because he is dangerous?

Actually I know the reason:

The years of Fox News and conservative whining about liberals have GROOMED you to think that attacks are without base.

You’re lie the frog in the boiling water. What’s sad is you can’t even see it.

Your wasting your time with @Dacien. He doesn’t give two shits about dead kids because his precious guns are more important. What makes you think he gives a shit about the country if it keeps Rethugs and old white men in power. No heinous act is too low for him to defend.

[Elegiac]

Yeah but that's all on you guys. It's like the new strategy. "If we lose, you'll regret it." Now I'll admit, Obama was no cakewalk. We had a lot of crap flung from the right, no doubt about it. But I would argue it was just a bit more than normal. This, however, is on a whole new level.

Yes, it is. Because Trump is not "just another Republican" - he is the first President in a long time to have won on a White America campaign message. I'm going to ignore the inevitable "Donald Trump didn't win because of racism" garbage you'll reply with because, quite frankly, I'm not interested in hearing McCarthy's excuses.

Hillary was a bad candidate, yes, but saying that she lost ignores a very important question: Why was Donald Trump electorally viable to the degree that he was? Why was it Clinton versus Trump and not another Clinton versus Bush? So we're going to ignore Clinton entirely in our assessment, and focus on the reasons why people voted for Trump, and what context that exists in.

Here are the usual excuses:

- "He promised to drain the swamp."
- "He speaks his mind."
- "His voters responded to economic anxiety."
- "His campaign resonated with those who have been left behind."

Where these excuses fall apart is in the demographic breakdown. Trump did not universally appeal to people who had an axe to grind with the establishment, or people who were economically anxious, or social outcasts. No, there was only one demographic that was receptive to his message: White people.

People say "Trump ran as a moderate"; no, he didn't. One of the things a lot of analysts commented on at the time was the lack of elaborated policies in contrast to the traditional stump speeches and manifestos. So what did he run on, explicitly?

- Calling Mexicans rapists and criminals
- Banning Muslim immigration
- Building a wall to keep illegal immigrants out
- National stop and frisk

We also know from a lot of statistical sources that hostile sexism and denial of racism were significantly more predictive of voting for Trump than "economic anxiety" as detailed both in this study as well as the graphic below:



Additionally, lack of education was *significantly* predictive, as shown in this study. Here's a fun excerpt:

Lack of a college education was persistently noted as the strongest predictor of Trump support. This pattern led journalists with limited date toward economic explanations. However, education is also the strongest predictor of support for international trade, a relationship that is not tied to income or occupation so much as ethnocentrism. Negative attitudes towards racial and ethnic diversity are also correlated with low levels of education. In this election, education represented group status threat rather than being left behind economically. Those who felt that the hierarchy was being upended - with whites discriminated against more thank blacks, Christians discriminated against more than Muslims, and men discriminated against more than women - were most likely to support Trump.

Why does it matter whether Trump's support was driven by being left behind economically, as opposed to a sense that one's status in the domestic or international level has suffered? Some workers obviously have suffered financially, even if the general trend is toward improvement. However, these losses were not politicized when it came to voting in 2016. Trump's victory may be viewed more admirably when it is attributed to a groundswell of support from previously ignored workers than when it is attributed to those whose status is threatened by minorities and foreign countries. More importantly, elected officials who embrace the left behind narrative may feel compelled to pursue policies that will do little to assuage the fears of less educated Americans. Furthermore, Trump's "us vs. them" rhetoric does little to lead whites and minorities or Americans and foreigners to view one another in less threatening ways, and it calls to whites' attention the fact that they are already doing quite well relative to minority groups and relative to those in the countries they often find threatening.

Sidenote: Perceptions of the economy do not determine political preference, but the inverse.People's view of the economy is strongly conditioned by their attitude towards incumbents. Keeping this in mind...it's easy to see why there are high levels of economic dissatisfaction among Trump voters, since they viewed the economy as worse off based on their perceptions of their predecessor.

Speaking of. Let's compare Obama with Trump. The former was educated, well spoken, had a stable, loving nuclear family, and never suffered from a personal scandal in office. Trump is...not that. Why, then, did people vote for him? Why did people find his crassness, his horrible temperament, his lack of qualifications, his lack of knowledge in general, and his obsession with denigrating his opponents appealing, rather than noxious? If economic hardship wasn't the reason, if elaborated policies weren't the reason...We have a simple explanation.

Donald Trump won the 2016 election because affirming the primacy of whiteness is still an issue of importance to many white voters.

There it is, in the simplest of terms. White supremacy hates genuine meritocracy, because meritocracy by definition enables people to rise by their talents rather than their race or gender. And to guard against genuine meritocracy, this means that everything *of* merit has to be sacrificed. The entitlement gets so profound that many white voters are willing to sacrifice the economic benefits to their class in exchange for seeing white primacy preserved - that is why they stick with him despite the tariffs, and the maladministration.

Again: Donald Trump's behavior is a feature, not a bug. He won the GOP primary and was propelled to the White House because a large swathe of white voters wanted to send a message to America after 8 years of a black President who successfully navigated the ship of state:

"The worst of us should still be given deference over the best of you."

So there you have it, Dacien. An empirical demonstration of why, despite all your whinging and desperate appeals to people's good nature, there is nothing redeeming about your decision or continued support of the GOP and of Donald Trump. And why people have every goddamn right to be enraged.

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Your wasting your time with @Dacien. He doesn’t give two shits about dead kids because his precious guns are more important. What makes you think he gives a shit about the country if it keeps Rethugs and old white men in power. No heinous act is too low for him to defend.

He previously stated one of his reasons for supporting Trump was the death of a young girl at the hands of an undocumented immigrant.

So, he gives a shit about a certain kind of dead kid. Give you one guess what the qualifier is.

And no, I'm not sure why he or anyone else is buying into the whole "white maiden martyr" trope in 2019 either.

[lockedout]

Because trump is abnormal.

There is Nothing normal about his presidency.

Obama didn’t make policy by tweet.

Obama didn’t have most of his inner circle quit in a year and a half.

Obama didn’t have any cabinet members plead guilty to lying to the fbi.

Why can’t you understand that the reason trump gets shit flung at him is because he is dangerous?

Actually I know the reason:

The years of Fox News and conservative whining about liberals have GROOMED you to think that attacks are without base.

You’re lie the frog in the boiling water. What’s sad is you can’t even see it.

How has your life changed since Trump took office?

[Elegiac]

How has your life changed since Trump took office?

Bitch, please. Y'all have been voting out of fear of terrorism for nearly two decades despite being more likely to win the lottery than to get blown up by some extremist.

One doesn't have to be a personal, direct victim of injustice to a) perceive it, or b) be opposed to it. That's called being an empathetic human being.

- - - Updated - - -

Racism being a function of malice is one of the biggest myths of our time. "I can't be racist because I'm a good person" should be filed away with "I can't be racist because I have X friends" or "I can't be racist because I'm one sixty-fourth Cherokee".

Limpdick excuses for white privilege. I, as an upper middle class white, am tired of said excuses and am going to call it out.

Check your privilege.

[Benggaul]

Welp, Trump critic Amash just left the GOP. Pretty sure they're going to have a hard time counting on his votes in the future.

[Breccia]

US soybean farmers have been so pleased with the current situation that they're no longer waiting for Trump to solve the problem he created. They're taking it in their own hands.

The Soybean Export Council will host a trade exchange for Chinese customers in Illinois next month.

Jim Sutter, the chief of the council, also visited one of China's largest grain traders in April to discuss resuming relationships once the tariff situation ends.

Director of the American Soybean Association Joe Steinkamp recently met with Chief Agricultural Negotiator for the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative Gregg Doud to discuss his worries about a thinning market burdening young farmers with difficult financial conditions.

Cargill Inc., a commodities company, spoke out against Trump's proposal to add tariffs to $300 billion worth of Chinese products in a June letter to U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer.

This is hardly a surprise anymore. Trump recently threatened yet more tariffs, and China is sick of the US's demands. Remember, on March 21, Trump said that any tariffs applied should extend beyond any trade deal. This is all the excuse China needs to not have trade deals, as reported by the South China Morning Post.

The US tariff hike on Chinese products was the trigger for bilateral trade frictions, so all the additional tariffs imposed since [the beginning of the trade war in July 2018] must be scrapped once there is a deal

-- China's Ministry of Commerce

This means, removing the tariffs is secondary to any deal. Trump must come up with a deal China likes, above and beyond simply "I will remove the tariffs I unilaterally applied without Congress because National Security Lol".

Sounds like a group of people who are tired of winning.

[ati87]

And then you look at something like child separation and they just sort of assume that Trump and Co. want to split families to cause suffering. They sort of act like human trafficking isn't a thing, that it's just a fig leaf for racism, it doesn't really exist. That people who immigrate illegally haven't been told that they have better chances in their asylum claim if they have a child with them.

So no surprise that 30% of adults weren't related to the children they had with them. If this were the Obama administration we'd be talking about how important it is to make sure children aren't being victimized by predators and human traffickers. There are stories about the unique suffering young children face in this regard. But it's not Obama, it's Trump, so it's just racist Trump who hates brown kids and wants to see them suffer. Just the worst, most vitriolic accusation possible because of course it is. 24/7 outrage until he's gone.

Don't be dishonest now please, you support Trump for his cruelty so at least be proud of that.

[jeezusisacasual]

US soybean farmers have been so pleased with the current situation that they're no longer waiting for Trump to solve the problem he created. They're taking it in their own hands.



This is hardly a surprise anymore. Trump recently threatened yet more tariffs, and China is sick of the US's demands. Remember, on March 21, Trump said that any tariffs applied should extend beyond any trade deal. This is all the excuse China needs to not have trade deals, as reported by the South China Morning Post.


-- China's Ministry of Commerce

This means, removing the tariffs is secondary to any deal. Trump must come up with a deal China likes, above and beyond simply "I will remove the tariffs I unilaterally applied without Congress because National Security Lol".

Sounds like a group of people who are tired of winning.

Color me shocked that the US can not win a trade war against the next rising superpower. This will destroy more and more generational assets ( Farms ) for nothing gained in return, this is the coming Chinese century with the only way to stop it would be armed conflict. China wants to be seen as a equal not as a lesser of anything. They can keep on trying to win because Xi will be there for the rest of his life while Trump will be out within 2 years or 6 years at worst. This is a long game not meant to be over anytime soon.

[Grapemask]

So no surprise that 30% of adults weren't related to the children they had with them. If this were the Obama administration we'd be talking about how important it is to make sure children aren't being victimized by predators and human traffickers. There are stories about the unique suffering young children face in this regard. But it's not Obama, it's Trump, so it's just racist Trump who hates brown kids and wants to see them suffer. Just the worst, most vitriolic accusation possible because of course it is. 24/7 outrage until he's gone.

You butchered that story. It is not that 30% of children are not related to the adults they came with. It's 30% of the children of the group suspected to not be related. This means of the times the BP thought there were shenanigans afoot, they were only right 30% of the time. That's a very different statistic.

[Dacien]

He previously stated one of his reasons for supporting Trump was the death of a young girl at the hands of an undocumented immigrant.

I really never said anything of the sort. Yeah I was pretty upset with the verdict resulting from Kate Steinle. I mean they literally just released this guy who had been deported something like six times when ICE had a hold on him for deportation. They just released him onto the streets from jail. And now she's dead. You know, and it's just hard to digest that kind of thing. People talk about the crime rates of illegal immigrants being at this level or that level, but one death is too much. One crime is too much. It's one death or one crime that should never have happened. Totally preventable. But we live in this strange world where defending the right of illegal immigrants to be here illegally is worth a certain amount of deaths, or a certain amount of crime.

But I've certainly never said I support Trump because of this reason or that reason. I take him on a case by case basis. I certainly oppose the left in this country in a lot of situations, this one included, and unfortunately that puts me on the same side of the issue as Trump.

[Dacien]

You literally just admitted you support Trump on that one because of how you felt about it... You really need to learn how English works.

I really can't help it if I care about something and then Trump also cares about it. I literally can't do anything about that.

[Draco-Onis]

I really can't help it if I care about something and then Trump also cares about it. I literally can't do anything about that.

I suppose we can call you a single incident voter also what laws has Trump passed to stop this particular tragedy from occurring?

[Zaydin]

So someone decided to erect a temporary fence around the Lincoln Memorial, going so far as to run it through the Reflection Pool to make sure people who didn't buy tickets can't get close.

Guess the GOP can't let filthy poor people who don't worship God Emperor Trump get close enough to him to heckle him. The Emperor needs to be surrounded by people who kiss his wrinkled orange ass at all times, apparently.

The Washington Monument and National Mall webcams have also apparently been mysteriously turned off.

[Dacien]

I suppose we can call you a single incident voter

Not really. It was a great number of issues that led me to oppose Hillary.

[Draco-Onis]

Not really. It was a great number of issues that led me to oppose Hillary.

It justifies your current support, again what has he done to stop it? any ideas he has put forth?

[Orbitus]

$2.5 million is jack shit in the grand scheme of things. It's actually dirt cheap considering what they're putting on. Parks was already 12 billion in the hole. Another 2.5 mil isn't going to make a difference until Congress gets off it's ass and appropriates the funding they already needed.

In other words, Keynesian economics working as intended.

He is stealing from one fund to fund a celebration of him, a celebration no one wants but him and his shitty supporters. This is a non partisan event that he is making about him.