Did Garrosh ever do anything wrong?

[Ielenia]

it would not be worthy the waste, without gul'dan would be something rly useless now that the orcs knew about then,

I never said to use Gul'dan again. The Legion could have employed a different agent.

and invasion just to wipe the orcs is not worth the effort since draenor is useless despite some cannon folder potencial

The Legion did not invade Draenor to wipe out the orcs. The Legion was there with the intention to kill the draenei. Remember: Kil'jaeden was on a personal crusade to erradicate Velen and his draenei.

[Syegfryed]

I never said to use Gul'dan again. The Legion could have employed a different agent.

But like i said, they were already shielded against the legion, employ someone different to do the same thing would take years and generations.

The Legion did not invade Draenor to wipe out the orcs. The Legion was there with the intention to kill the draenei. Remember: Kil'jaeden was on a personal crusade to erradicate Velen and his draenei.

Sure, but the orcs without then just with Garrosh were working on it, they could also kill then without caring about orcs

[sam86]

They also say that attemped assassination of other country's leader is a peaceful act.

who did that ?

[Gann Stonespire]

And most of them gang-pressed into service by Garrosh's Kor'kron overseers, yes. Also don't forget the purged Cleft of Shadow with the corpses of renegade Orcs hanging from the ceilings.

They weren't depicted as pressed into service. For example, Saurfang's lieutenant Runthak, who served under him and Thrall for years, gleefully tries to execute Ji during the siege. The Siege Of Orgrimmar wrote him as cartoon villains

Which we know to be a minority of the Orcs.

Per a retcon on twitter which the game never supported.

He shows up in "War Crimes."

Yet never in Mists of Pandaria which was the point.

His refusal to aid Garrosh had already occurred in Cata.

That was Sylvanas. See here.

Sorry, Aggra not Draka.

And she wasn't in MOP siege scenario.

He's Eitrigg's son and serves Vol'jin in WoD.

Yet nowhere to be seen in the Siege Of Orgrimmar, being absent for all of Mists of Pandaria.

That's not a "vast majority," that's just 54% - that's a slight majority. I think "Chronicles" made the rise of the Old Horde more realistic in that sense, because with 70% opposition it seems unlikely Ner'zhul's reforms could've ever passed. And that doesn't even account for the population disparity between the various clans.

I counted that was three out of twenty clans being against the Draenei genocide in the current lore. When it was originally four out of nineteen clans.

Thats definitely a small minority and Chronicles definitely makes the orcs look worse.

And LOL at it being realistic that the orc clans universally supported the Draenei genocide.

Yes, it is a retcon, but it changes almost nothing. You're basically trying to say that one Orcish clan being altered to appear non-good is somehow a complete and utter twisting of the Orcish race in general - I don't think that's the case. Basically the Bladewind clan was given some actual lore (prior to "Chronicle Vol. 2" we knew absolutely nothing of them) which changes how they were perceived based on the only thing we knew about them prior, e.g. that they opposed Ner'zhul's and Gul'dan's reforms and war footing. Even if we discount the Bladewinds, as said above, that's not a huge change - one bad clan does not equate to the Orcs being universally evil or some such.

One of the only four orcish clans being changed to one of the many clans that supported the Draenei genocide, also adding that slavery and rape were regularly practiced by orcs, isn't a negative retcon now?

It has a large effect combined with the other shitty retcons done since Mists of Pandaria to make the Horde more evil.

And no it isn't realistic, especially as Chronicles did retcons like claiming the House of Nobles was mind controlled by Onyxia not to pay the Stonemasons.

How can you say otherwise? Heck just look at the anti orc posts in this topic alone.

• Garrosh did not use a WMD against Theramore.

Yet Theramore was exactly a military target under every definition, unlike Taurajo which was attacked specifically when the military had left..

[Aucald]

They weren't depicted as pressed into service. For example, Saurfang's lieutenant Runthak, who served under him and Thrall for years, gleefully tries to execute Ji during the siege. The Siege Of Orgrimmar wrote him as cartoon villains

Given that there's an achievement to free them, I think you've got your facts backward. Runthak goes bad, yes, but there are still others who do not.

Per a retcon on twitter which the game never supported.

Canon is canon.

Yet never in Mists of Pandaria which was the point.

"War Crimes" is the denouement of MoP, and thus part of its overarching narrative.

That was Sylvanas. See here.

It was the Forsaken, actually, but it was still express denial of Garrosh's will (who Cromush is there to represent). Cromush also says that he will inform Garrosh of Drek'thar's refusal to aid the Horde.

And she wasn't in MOP siege scenario.

Lack of involvement in the specific events doesn't denote lack of opposition to Garrosh's regime.

Yet nowhere to be seen in the Siege Of Orgrimmar, being absent for all of Mists of Pandaria.

See above.

I counted that was three out of twenty clans being against the Draenei genocide in the current lore. When it was originally four out of nineteen clans.

Thats definitely a small minority and Chronicles definitely makes the orcs look worse.

And LOL at it being realistic that the orc clans universally supported the Draenei genocide.

Why wouldn't it be more realistic? Without an overwhelming coalition Ner'zhul couldn't have successfully changed the very nature of the Orcs to give rise to the Horde. The Horde's own religion (Shamanistic ancestor-worship) had also been co-opted through Kil'jaeden's demonic magic, with illusory ancestors appearing to all the Shaman to confirm Kil'jaeden's pronouncements that the Draenei were the enemies of the Orcs, just like a false Rulkan had appeared to Ner'zhul before. The fact that *any* of the Orcish clans opposed Ner'zhul's will is actually the more surprising and speaks well of them as a people.

One of the only four orcish clans being changed to one of the many clans that supported the Draenei genocide, also adding that slavery and rape were regularly practiced by orcs, isn't a negative retcon now?

It has a large effect combined with the other shitty retcons done since Mists of Pandaria to make the Horde more evil.

And no it isn't realistic, especially as Chronicles did retcons like claiming the House of Nobles was mind controlled by Onyxia not to pay the Stonemasons.

How can you say otherwise? Heck just look at the anti orc posts in this topic alone.

Slavery and rape weren't regularly practiced by the Orcs - as your own source said, the majority of the clans opted to leave the Draenei be and not involve themselves, with only the Bladewind committing themselves to such acts. I'm actually saying the exact opposite of what you imply here, and lauding the Orcs somewhat for having the wherewithal to resist the Legion's corruption despite the vast power disparity between the two groups. I think it is wrongheaded to lionize or demonize the Orcs as a people - they've done many things that are terrible and they've done many things that are laudable. Pretty much like every other major race in the Warcraft universe.

[Jastall]

If they show to have food problem then its canon, we need to figure out why, population and the "impossibility" to get enough is what come up in mind

It is said they did bought supplies from allies, Garrosh shortstory said that, but its too much expensive, and their line of supplies is attacked by the alliance who made things worse.

Dun morogh is another climate, its other problem and resolved with just another variety of things to grow, farms in durotar are almost completly out of question, tht until cataclysm had not even water either.

hunt outside ashenvale was not viable, if you don't like scorpions and other nasty things, they did buy but again, expensive and they could not afford.

To fish properly for a huge popultion with need special ships, with special techniques



but he rebuild with iron and steel, not from wood...

What access? they could only tke from azshara and ashenvale, they could not take everything from mulgore or the barrens, its a savannah not rly a forest or a jungle, taking from other places is even hard and expensive, from the other continent is even worse, and like i said, at that time, they need imediate solutions so after that they could work on permanent ones.


Sure, but things like this are not rly completely out of question, and we could make some sense of it.

The Barrens are full of game that isn't scorpions, and it's hardly that far from Durotar. We actually see farms right at the walls of Orgrimmar as well, some closer to the Southfury river were damaged or destroyed by the Cataclysm which would cause a short-term crisis for sure but war strains your supplies more than anything else in the short term as well, so trying to use that as a solution is a bit silly, especially when as I said the Horde otherwise has the means to supply thousands of Orcs in a desolate ball of ice literally the xpack prior.

And needing specialized ships to fish? The Horde can build demolishers, reinforced airships and fleets of zeppelins for pete's sake. I won't buy that fishing boats, nets and spears are beyond their knowledge or means. And the Orcs are in no way a huge population unless shenanigans are involved, most of them fit in a series of fortified camps and later on in a stolen fleet.

No, the food shortage only makes exist because the narrative tells us it exists, it does not make sense. Unless we're supposed to believe that Orcs are lazy or ingest truly ridiculous quantities of food, it's hard to fathom a place right next to a savannah, several trade ports, and an uncontested stretch of the ocean would fail to provide for a population of a hundred thousand at the very, very most (likely far lower than that), and in that I assume that 0 farming or foraging can be done in Durotar which is provably untrue.

[MechaCThun]

This topic has been done to death. Especially on this website.



And the meme needs to remain buried.




Welp, I'll bite anyway.

Initially no he did nothing wrong. Notice how I said initially: the role was more-or-less put upon him and he more-or-less did best he could with what he had. His visions of what a strong leader and a strong faction were, at the time, not too far off from Thrall's.

However if we are to believe -- or it is to be understood -- that Garrosh was always this way (his "true colors" during 5.3 MoP and beyond) then Blizzard did a horrible job in conveying that.

[Ielenia]

But like i said, they were already shielded against the legion, employ someone different to do the same thing would take years and generations.

They clearly weren't, since Gul'dan still rather quick and easily converted the orcs to the Legion using the exact same tactics he did the first time around when Garrosh intervened. He didn't even try to hide his intentions, and the orcs still drank it.

Sure, but the orcs without then just with Garrosh were working on it, they could also kill then without caring about orcs

Maybe. But then again, who knows if Kil'jaeden didn't want to personally see to the draenei's demise? Letting the orcs take care of that, while the end result is the same, it might not be the same for Kil'jaeden since he wouldn't be the cause for their deahts.

[Gann Stonespire]

Given that there's an achievement to free them, I think you've got your facts backward. Runthak goes bad, yes, but there are still others who do not.

All those NPCs I mentioned are in the mob camp, so again the in game scenario shows the majority of orcs siding with Garrosh, including the entirety of the Kor'kron and nearly everyone in the military.

Canon is canon.

That changes nothing about the in game portrayal which was my whole point.

"War Crimes" is the denouement of MoP, and thus part of its overarching narrative.

Still not in game.

Lack of involvement in the specific events doesn't denote lack of opposition to Garrosh's regime.

Read my above response.

See above.

And once again, see my response.

Why wouldn't it be more realistic? Without an overwhelming coalition Ner'zhul couldn't have successfully changed the very nature of the Orcs to give rise to the Horde. The Horde's own religion (Shamanistic ancestor-worship) had also been co-opted through Kil'jaeden's demonic magic, with illusory ancestors appearing to all the Shaman to confirm Kil'jaeden's pronouncements that the Draenei were the enemies of the Orcs, just like a false Rulkan had appeared to Ner'zhul before. The fact that *any* of the Orcish clans opposed Ner'zhul's will is actually the more surprising and speaks well of them as a people.

4/19 clans is still heavily outnumbered, being less then 24%. There was no reason for the writers to retcon the Bladewind clan to be bad.

Slavery and rape weren't regularly practiced by the Orcs - as your own source said, the majority of the clans opted to leave the Draenei be and not involve themselves, with only the Bladewind committing themselves to such acts.

The capturing was done by the Bladewind, the slavery was indicated to be practiced by the orcs as a whole.

I think it is wrongheaded to lionize or demonize the Orcs as a people - they've done many things that are terrible and they've done many things that are laudable. Pretty much like every other major race in the Warcraft universe.

You say that, yet the writers of Chronicles went out of their way to lionize every human that did something wrong, including making the formerly evil House of Nobles brainwashed victims of Onyxia as opposed to smug and prejudiced twits.

And again, in contrast to the retcons to make humanity look better, orcs got retcons to make them look worse as a whole. I don't understand why you seem to think Blizzard had to retcon one of the few good clans to be evil going against all prior lore about them, was needed and realistic as opposed to a stupid retcon done by inept writers who can't handle morally grey.

[Syegfryed]

They clearly weren't, since Gul'dan still rather quick and easily converted the orcs to the Legion using the exact same tactics he did the first time around when Garrosh intervened. He didn't even try to hide his intentions, and the orcs still drank it.

most of then were forced to the corruption, and just the ones in tanaan got corrupted, its not "the orc race" s a whole, they were broken, losing and gul'dan was strong.


IF the iron horde "won" and dominated the world this would not happen.

Maybe. But then again, who knows if Kil'jaeden didn't want to personally see to the draenei's demise? Letting the orcs take care of that, while the end result is the same, it might not be the same for Kil'jaeden since he wouldn't be the cause for their deahts.

he could still se in open view they got destroyed by the orcs, with his hand or not, i dunno if he would be so pity about it

[Gann Stonespire]

How can you say otherwise? Heck just look at the anti orc posts in this topic alone.

He was a complete megalomaniac even before he got corrupted. He got what he deserved. Thrall made a huge mistake by putting him in charge. The only honorable Orcs are Thrall and Saurfang. I hate the rest and Orc is the only race I have never played and never will. Taurens are honorable. Orcs are savages.

Speak of the devil. Like I said the current retcons damaged orcs as a race.

[Aucald]

All those NPCs I mentioned are in the mob camp, so again the in game scenario shows the majority of orcs siding with Garrosh, including the entirety of the Kor'kron and nearly everyone in the military.

The majority of Orcs within Orgrimmar, yes. Which as the stronghold of the True Horde would scan - it was Garrosh's private fiefdom at that point so it scans the majority of Orcs there would be his loyalists. Most of those who opposed him had either been killed (as per those in the Cleft of Shadows), or gang-pressed into service as I previously described.

That changes nothing about the in game portrayal which was my whole point.

It changes what we know about it, though. In-game representation != lore representation in every case. This is where the novels, short stories, comics, and CDev commentary comes in to play.

Still not in game.

Still canon.

4/19 clans is still heavily outnumbered, being less then 24%. There was no reason for the writers to retcon the Bladewind clan to be bad.

I won't argue that, but it doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

The capturing was done by the Bladewind, the slavery was indicated to be practiced by the orcs as a whole.

Not from what I read. Some Orcish clans did indeed practice a degree of slavery, but it seems to be a rarity (as would be expected from a warrior culture aligned with the tenets of honor). It is even rarer now, with the Orcs themselves recently having been freed from bondage to both the Alliance and then the Legion.

You say that, yet the writers of Chronicles went out of their way to lionize every human that did something wrong, including making the formerly evil House of Nobles brainwashed victims of Onyxia as opposed to smug and prejudiced twits.

And again, in contrast to the retcons to make humanity look better, orcs got retcons to make them look worse as a whole. I don't understand why you seem to think Blizzard had to retcon one of the few good clans to be evil going against all prior lore about them, was needed and realistic as opposed to a stupid retcon done by inept writers who can't handle morally grey.

Not really - the fact that the House of Nobles were brainwashed by Onyxia doesn't lionize them at all, it simply reduces some of their terribleness. The House of Nobles are still mostly assholes, though; as demonstrated by individuals by Aldous Lescovar who was a loudmouthed braggart and had the cheek to try to stand toe-to-toe with Varian Wrynn. Aldous' father Gregor was also sympathetic to the Defias and later confirmed to be part of the Twilight's Hammer cult. It's also an open question as to whether Onyxia outright "brainwashed" the House of Nobles or merely enabled their duplicity and corruption (which was already preexisting).

I don't think any of these retcons make the Horde look worse, really; it simply increases the drama of their plight and shows the extent of their peril as a people. Given that we knew almost nothing of the Bladewinds prior to "Chronicle Vol. 2" it's not that much of consequence.

[Gann Stonespire]

The majority of Orcs within Orgrimmar, yes. Which as the stronghold of the True Horde would scan - it was Garrosh's private fiefdom at that point so it scans the majority of Orcs there would be his loyalists. Most of those who opposed him had either been killed (as per those in the Cleft of Shadows), or gang-pressed into service as I previously described.

And the majority of those mobs were class trainers, quest givers, emissaries, and other NPCs who had worked under Thrall for years, suddenly they became cartoonishly evil Garrosh loyalists in the Siege of Orgrimmar.

If they always intended it to be a minority of orcs, why did they put so many classic NPCs with no reason or precedent to side with Garrosh, in the Garrosh camp?

It changes what we know about it, though. In-game representation != lore representation in every case. This is where the novels, short stories, comics, and CDev commentary comes in to play.

Irrelevant as I'm talking about the in game portrayal, not later retcons.

Not from what I read. Some Orcish clans did indeed practice a degree of slavery, but it seems to be a rarity (as would be expected from a warrior culture aligned with the tenets of honor). It is even rarer now, with the Orcs themselves recently having been freed from bondage to both the Alliance and then the Legion.

Its a negative retcon Chronicles added along with making the Bladewind clan bad, for no reason, outside of making the Alliance/Horde conflict more morally simplistic that is...

Hence its a shit change.

Not really - the fact that the House of Nobles were brainwashed by Onyxia doesn't lionize them at all, it simply reduces some of their terribleness.

It does completely. It makes them go from examples of human greed and hubris to simply being innocent pawns of Onyxia.

There was no reason to do it, just as there was no reason to make the Bladewind clan bad.

It's also an open question as to whether Onyxia outright "brainwashed" the House of Nobles or merely enabled their duplicity and corruption (which was already preexisting).

Incorrect, its made clear to be mind control.

Even the Garithos section tries to make him look better as documented here.

I don't think any of these retcons make the Horde look worse, really; it simply increases the drama of their plight and shows the extent of their peril as a people. Given that we knew almost nothing of the Bladewinds prior to "Chronicle Vol. 2" it's not that much of consequence.

You're pretty much alone in thinking that then.

And making a clan known for opposing the Draenei genocide, gleeful participants as well as regular practitioners of slavery, definitely makes orcs look worse and again, gives ammo to the "Daelin was right" crowd of posters.

And with Whitewalker being retconned as an offshoot of the Frostwolves, Redwalker is the only non Frostwolf clan to oppose the Draenei genocide. Again, these are shitty pointless retcons to the Horde narrative.

[mickybrighteyes]

The only reason it didn't end up "destroyed entirely" was because we (i.e. the Alliance and Horde) intervened, since they eventually fell to the demons' corruption, anyways.

Not sure that's entirely true. Or at least that it would have resulted in outland style planet rupturing (the main parties in that ritual all got turned off for something else).

Garrosh derailing Gul'dan's fel plan and the premature invasion of azeroth techincally worked out for a 'better' draenor that wasn't a doomed world.

[Nihilux]

I would imagine because Garrosh started relying more and more on tactics that the Horde viewed as insensitive to outright monstrous. Cracks started showing up when Garrosh imported intelligent beasts from Northrend by holding their children hostage, something a few in the Horde (including the Orcs) began to question the ethics of. Then Garrosh had Dark Shaman suborning the Elements during the battle against Northwatch, leading to an outcry from many Orcish Shaman especially in light of the Cataclysm being ongoing at the time. The use of the Mana-Bomb at Theramore was seen as a distinctly non-Orcish gambit - tantamount to using poison or sneaking into a camp at the dead of night to slit throats. Orcs place a premium on honorable decorum in combat, fighting their enemies face to face so to speak. Not to mention that Garrosh's feint unnecessarily cost the lives of many of his own just to preserve the illusion that would maximize the Alliance body-count due to the bomb

I don't think there's much if any tactics the Orcs would view as monstrous (if anything the only thing I can imagine is that they dislike things that do not heighten the sense of power or dominance). Look past all the retcons of WC1 and WC2, the WoD timeline also shows that the Orcs didn't mind unleashing the equivalent of Godzilla on the Gorian Empire, committing genocide of Ogres. The technological aspects of orcs shown through the Blackrock clan as well, shows that what drives the orcs most of all is violence, whether by physical means or technology. Really, seeing a mana bomb as something "dishonorable" seems to require quite a bit of stretch, especially considering the magical nature of the world and the offensive capabilities of some big lore figures.
Really, this whole "orcs care about decorum" is one of the most inconsistent things that rarely shows itself in the history of orcs. Even in BFA that much is apparent, despite Saurfang's vacuous mumblings about honor.

I honestly wish Blizzard would accentuate the differences between the races, because the attempt at aligning everyone with each other, quashing faction conflict, feels way too unbelievable at times. The only hope I've seen recently when it comes to this is Night Elves.

Also, in regards to the OP, memes aside, if Garrosh did something wrong depends on your perspective, and on your view of the general horde perspective. I imagine he did some things wrong and some things right, if I remember my Cata questing. MoP was a mess though and was basically made to drive Garrosh to the extreme. Then again, the TBC->WotLK transition was also done very poorly in-game when it comes to Garrosh.

[Aucald]

And the majority of those mobs were class trainers, quest givers, emissaries, and other NPCs who had worked under Thrall for years, suddenly they became cartoonishly evil Garrosh loyalists in the Siege of Orgrimmar.

If they always intended it to be a minority of orcs, why did they put so many classic NPCs with no reason or precedent to side with Garrosh, in the Garrosh camp?

Working for Thrall doesn't really imply they agreed with his policies. Only the Kor'kron Overseers are really presented as "cartoonishly evil" as well. I'm not sure their status as "classic NPC's" really matters overly. Does that also mean the heroics of Gamon are meant to show the positive Orcs aspect as well? I mean Gamon gets a whole lot more spotlight than any of those other NPC's you've mentioned above.

Irrelevant as I'm talking about the in game portrayal, not later retcons.

It seems more like you're drawing arbitrary lines in the sand to help your argument, which isn't a successful gambit and not really serviceable to discuss the lore (as it extends beyond just in-game portrayal).

Its a negative retcon Chronicles added along with making the Bladewind clan bad, for no reason, outside of making the Alliance/Horde conflict more morally simplistic that is...

Hence its a shit change.

YMMV, I suppose.

It does completely. It makes them go from examples of human greed and hubris to simply being innocent pawns of Onyxia.

I just outlined examples of them still being morally reprehensible long after Onyxia ceased to be a factor in Stormwindian politics. I think you're definitely putting far too much narrative weight on Onyxia's actions in this context. She made them worse, sure; but they were already bad.

There was no reason to do it, just as there was no reason to make the Bladewind clan bad.

YMMV, again.

Incorrect, its made clear to be mind control.

Made clear where? We only know that they were under her "sway," which is open to a number of interpretations. Much of what Onyxia did was just clever and cruel politicking as opposed to outright mind control (excepting her direct control over Bolvar and, later, the Varian "clone").

Even the Garithos section tries to make him look better as documented here.

Not really - it gives him a plausible reason for his xenophobic racism, but it certainly doesn't excuse him or really even put him in any kind of better light. He goes from a fantastic racist to a more "realistic" racist, neither of which are stellar things to be.

You're pretty much alone in thinking that then.

And making a clan known for opposing the Draenei genocide, gleeful participants as well as regular practitioners of slavery, definitely makes orcs look worse and again, gives ammo to the "Daelin was right" crowd of posters.

And with Whitewalker being retconned as an offshoot of the Frostwolves, Redwalker is the only non Frostwolf clan to oppose the Draenei genocide. Again, these are shitty pointless retcons to the Horde narrative.

That's not really for either of us to decide, ultimately. I don't really care about the "Daelin was right" selectorate, nor are they really germane to this argument. I think you've confused a more wide-ranging critique of the Horde with a critique of a single leader of it, or else you're bandwagoning another argument on top of this one for some reason. This has already veered far enough off course for my liking, in any case; we're not discussing the entirety of the Horde's history or heritage here, just the actions and legacy of Warchief Garrosh.

[iamthedevil]

As it normally goes, the whole "master race" thing didn't work out.

[Vakir]

Lot to unpack here.

Thank you for the only motherfucking reasonable and even-handed reply to the question in the thread.

[Arikara]

The list of things Garrosh did wrong is nearly as long as the list of things Garrosh ever did

You can count the exceptions on one hand. Two tops, if you're stretching

[sam86]

And no. The Night Elves had already struck a deal to allow the Horde to harvest lumber. He didn't honour it one iota.

Garrosh is racist sh8t, but nelfs never honored any lumber deal, they refused it all time until after MoP when they took Ashenvale back after Garrosh fall, probably to avoid next warchief be literally forced to war again since lumber = life for Orgrimmar (without lumber, they can't build house or craft very basic daily life tools)

Pretty certain Garrosh did not know that.

I see your point though.

blizz official statement on Theramore it was legit attack, u can mock it like how i mock every time possible MORALLY GREY burning tree, but u can't deny that official lore consider Theramore attack was right, same as burning innocent civilians in Darnassus attack is MORALLY GREY (i can't even stomach that... wtf?)