Wheel of Time TV Series In The Works

[Obelisk Kai]

Tbh I just never bought this part. Rand loves Min and Min loves Rand. Elayne loves Rand's abs and the fact that he is the perfect political play for her. Aviendha . . . I don't even know why she is in the story. I guess so Rand can collect a redhead as well?

I read most of the story when I was a teenager. I am older now and I can look back at it and I see exactly what Jordan was intended. The entire story is a fantasy...in more ways than just swords and sorcery.

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That's a bullshit point, given that hundred's of aes sedai keep more than one warder and it is spelled out that they often have intimate relationships with those multiple warders.

Turnabout is fair play, or some such.

Just Green Ajah and most of the other Ajah's have a low opinion of them due to that, which feeds back into the backbiting, schoolgirl stereotype.

[voxnor]

I read most of the story when I was a teenager. I am older now and I can look back at it and I see exactly what Jordan was intended. The entire story is a fantasy...in more ways than just swords and sorcery.

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Just Green Ajah and most of the other Ajah's have a low opinion of them due to that, which feeds back into the backbiting, schoolgirl stereotype.

And Rand has multiple monologues calling himself a lecher for feeling as he does for three women. You are just picking items that fit your scenario and not examining the other pieces and how Men are portrayed. Nearly all the characters use typical tropes of their gender and role - they all feel cliche and that's ok.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The entire Siuan Sanche character arc.

Egwene becoming simultaneously more unlikable the more powerful she becomes.

The Aes Sedai in general acting like a collection of spoiled bitchy school girls rather than the most learned and powerful women in their section of the world.

The magic system where men have to struggle against the one power to channel it by mastering it whereas women have to submit to it.

And the entire Sul'dam-Damane relationship, with strong women leading docile women they control around on magical collars which is a barely veiled male fantasy over lesbian relationships.

Oh, and the fact Rand has three women loving him who are all Ok with it which you brought up.

Misogyny is woven throughout the entire franchise.

Not gonna lie I don’t remember Siuan at all.

Eqwene also finds her self as a pawn in the greater witch games and but ends up leading them even if she is way younger then most of them. I would in no way say she becomes more unlikable she just learns of to play the game.

The ads Sedai just act like any generic wizard group in a fantasy setting they don’t stand out in any real way.

Ok you might have a point on the magic.

I’ve never heard of any fantasy lesbian relationship where one is boiled alive mentally, Mabye this one is you projecting?

Rand is a fair point I won’t contest that.

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Here is the difference. Men go "I just struggle to understand women". Women go "all men are pigheaded morons, why won't they listen to me".


But I want WoT to succeed like GoT did just so I can actually say "MOTHER'S MILK IN A CUP!"

Also this guy playing Rand is nowhere near hot enough. And I hope he has the acting chops because Rand's role is something you'd win awards over.

Thinking about it I think it’s just the witch’s who view the men that way. Nineveh doesn’t and she points it out a few times. Both Matt’s and Perans wife’s don’t i think. And what’s her face with the visions doesn’t either.

[voxnor]

Not gonna lie I don’t remember Siuan at all.

Eqwene also finds her self as a pawn in the greater witch games and but ends up leading them even if she is way younger then most of them. I would in no way say she becomes more unlikable she just learns of to play the game.

The ads Sedai just act like any generic wizard group in a fantasy setting they don’t stand out in any real way.

Ok you might have a point on the magic.

I’ve never heard of any fantasy lesbian relationship where one is boiled alive mentally, Mabye this one is you projecting?

Rand is a fair point I won’t contest that.

The author of that post is claiming that Siuan Sanche's arc is misogynist because she falls from power, falls in love with a man, and then wants him over other things.

The author is of that post is conveniently forgetting that falling in love and finding happiness is not misogyny.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes but their version of corrupt and arrogant is notably "female". It's not about power but about being manipulative. Not to mention the most corrupt of them all are the man-hating Red while the Greens are seen as heroic.

Being manipulative is just another basic wizard trope though.

Though I had totally forgot that they had different sects so that’s a fair point there.

[Shadowferal]

Did we read the same books?

I was about to post the same question.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The author of that post is claiming that Siuan Sanche's arc is misogynist because she falls from power, falls in love with a man, and then wants him over other things.

The author is of that post is conveniently forgetting that falling in love and finding happiness is not misogyny.

I really wish I remembered who Siuan was... audiobooks don’t do wonders for remembering names when there are so many characters and you suck at spelling.

[Logwyn]

Thinking about it I think it’s just the witch’s who view the men that way. Nineveh doesn’t and she points it out a few times. Both Matt’s and Perans wife’s don’t i think. And what’s her face with the visions doesn’t either.

Err there are quite a few times Nineveh, Tuon/Fortuona, Faile, and Min refer to men as pigheaded or wool headed.

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I really wish I remembered who Siuan was... audiobooks don’t do wonders for remembering names when there are so many characters and you suck at spelling.

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Siuan_Sanche

[Shadowferal]

I really wish I remembered who Siuan was... audiobooks don’t do wonders for remembering names when there are so many characters and you suck at spelling.

She was the Amyrlin Seat before Egwene, and that red bitch, Elaida

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Err there are quite a few times Nineveh, Tuon/Fortuona, Faile, and Min refer to men as pigheaded or wool headed.

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https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Siuan_Sanche

Mabye I just remember them being more reasonable so I don’t remember them being as hostile.

I’ve also actually Been scrolling though the wiki for a bit but none of it lodges my memory about who or what she actually did in the story. I think it’s because the series was so long and because I’ve read so many other books at this point that I’ve just wiped all memory of some parts.

I know I have the same problem with some discworld story’s.

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She was the Amyrlin Seat before Egwene, and that red bitch, Elaida

From scrolling though the wiki all I can remember of her is her first meeting rand. I’ve seemed to have wipped her from my mind and sadly the wiki doesn’t paint the same picture actual memory of the books does.

Funny thing is I remember all of elaida other then her interactions with
Siuan.

[Shadowferal]

Women referring to men they know as pigheaded, or wool headed? That's not hostile. That's friendly.
Men that they're truly hostile to, they have no words for at all.

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From scrolling though the wiki all I can remember of her is her first meeting rand. I’ve seemed to have wipped her from my mind and sadly the wiki doesn’t paint the same picture actual memory of the books does.

Funny thing is I remember all of elaida.

I suggest you go back and read the books.
She was stilled, and then healed.

[Nynax]

The entire Siuan Sanche character arc.

Egwene becoming simultaneously more unlikable the more powerful she becomes.

The Aes Sedai in general acting like a collection of spoiled bitchy school girls rather than the most learned and powerful women in their section of the world.

The magic system where men have to struggle against the one power to channel it by mastering it whereas women have to submit to it.

And the entire Sul'dam-Damane relationship, with strong women leading docile women they control around on magical collars which is a barely veiled male fantasy over lesbian relationships.

Oh, and the fact Rand has three women loving him who are all Ok with it which you brought up.

Misogyny is woven throughout the entire franchise.

I could see your point on Siuan's character arc...or it could also just be the arc of someone of great power "falling from grace" and learning to live among humans again. It's not like she ever stopped fighting her fight.

Personally thought Egwene became more and more of a bad ass. She's essentially the opposite of Siuan's story, and her decisions and the changes in her relationships are well explained as someone who ends up becoming one of the most powerful and influential figures.

The Aes Sedai acted like any other human organization filled with self important people convinced of their own power, ideas, and "righteous" causes. You take a look at US Congress during Obama through Trum or British Parliament with Brexit lately? Also portrayed as "bitchy school girls," Carhien nobility (more violent), Tairen nobility (opportunistic idiots), even Andor nobility.

I will give you the magic system as stemming from traditional ideas of masculine and feminine natures. I'm not sure if that makes it inherently misogynistic...hell the masculine side was literally toxic to use.

Sul'damn-Damane relationship is kind of about what you'd expect out of an attempt to enslave and control someone who can destroy armies. You'd wan't absolute certainty of no fuck-ups. This is slavery, of course the person in charge demands subservience. Not to mention, that fortunately for us, Jordan is not Terry Goodkind; who'd probably have half the woman in the series raped or near raped once a book.


Sure there are gendered preconceptions within many characters...but that's on BOTH sides, if you want to see nothing but misandry, that's on you. I find that the tensions between people of power in this series to be plausible. Especially considering it's not just political power we are talking about.

I mean, swap the White Tower women out with men...instead of "bitchy school girls" you now have an organization of "school yard bullies," where the guy with the most muscle has all the clout. No wait, he did that. The Black Tower is just more militaristic (how gendered again! No wait, war was its purpose...how gendered again!).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Women referring to men they know as pigheaded, or wool headed? That's not hostile. That's friendly.
Men that they're truly hostile to, they have no words for at all.

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I suggest you go back and read the books.
She was stilled, and then healed.

Oh I wouldn’t say calling them pig/wool headed is hostile I meant that I proabbly forgot them doing it at all as compared to other characters they don't act hostile/dismissive.

I’d say rands queen wife and a lot of the other witch’s are hostile/dismissive as an example.

As to rereading it, I probably should but the books are way to long and have way to many characters I don’t like for that.

[Orby]

I still haven't gotten through all the books. I did enjoy them for the most part.

That cast looks like they belong in a twilight reboot.. top kek

This gon' be some tween trash

So basically like The Shannara Chronicles TV Series? :P

The entire Siuan Sanche character arc.

Egwene becoming simultaneously more unlikable the more powerful she becomes.

The Aes Sedai in general acting like a collection of spoiled bitchy school girls rather than the most learned and powerful women in their section of the world.

The magic system where men have to struggle against the one power to channel it by mastering it whereas women have to submit to it.

And the entire Sul'dam-Damane relationship, with strong women leading docile women they control around on magical collars which is a barely veiled male fantasy over lesbian relationships.

Oh, and the fact Rand has three women loving him who are all Ok with it which you brought up.

Misogyny is woven throughout the entire franchise.

Very good points, when you point it out like that, it;s very collar pulling. Although I do see Amazon maybe toning that stuff down. They will probably have no choice either in today's current climate. But we'll see I guess.

[Shadowferal]

I dunno...I just don't see the hostility. Elaine had her duties as a queen. Although her "Queen's Guards" are primarily women...so maybe something there.

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I remember when this fan-made trailer for Tower of Midnight came out.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I dunno...I just don't see the hostility. Elaine had her duties as a queen. Although her "Queen's Guards" are primarily women...so maybe something there.

The way she and a lot of the other witch’s just rubbed me the wrong way.

I think it’s the way people with power are portrayed for the most part in the books. Min and Nineveh for example never felt bitchy even though they were still willing to be forceful or stand up for them selfs.

And before any one says I’m calling the women bitchy or something I thought Matt was bitchy as well For the first 10 books or so books.

[Serpha]

Wheels of Time isn't a YA (young adult, AKA tween shit) novel as far as I know so it shouldn't be anything like the objective crap you mentioned.

...technically...

They can always fuck everything up, wouldn't be the first time we see that.

Looking at the cast, it looks exactly like those two I've mentioned.

[Tyron]

Just saw the cast...and I literally couldn't picture any of them as their characters lol

[Obelisk Kai]

And Rand has multiple monologues calling himself a lecher for feeling as he does for three women. You are just picking items that fit your scenario and not examining the other pieces and how Men are portrayed. Nearly all the characters use typical tropes of their gender and role - they all feel cliche and that's ok.

The entire point is that it is so cliche, that it relies too heavily upon gender based stereotypes and the sheer number of characters in the series caused character development to essentially collapse, with most of the supporting cast beginning to blend into each other and become indistinguishable from each other beyond a few characteristics, were they male or female, were they good or bad, did they use the one power or not.

The misogynistic themes have their roots in this overly simplistic approach Jordan took to his characters and that women came out looking significantly poorer as a result.

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Very good points, when you point it out like that, it;s very collar pulling. Although I do see Amazon maybe toning that stuff down. They will probably have no choice either in today's current climate. But we'll see I guess.

Given that the entire magic system is based on a gender split, and one of the central plot points is that only Women can use magic as men who use magic go insane, they cannot remove it entirely. Nor should they, it's one of the major themes of the novel and removing it entirely would cause the entire narrative to collapse.

However, there are better ways to approach the gender issue that do not take the flawed route Jordan himself ultimately went down and that is what I am sure Amazon will do, particularly given today's climate.

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I could see your point on Siuan's character arc...or it could also just be the arc of someone of great power "falling from grace" and learning to live among humans again. It's not like she ever stopped fighting her fight.

Personally thought Egwene became more and more of a bad ass. She's essentially the opposite of Siuan's story, and her decisions and the changes in her relationships are well explained as someone who ends up becoming one of the most powerful and influential figures.

The Aes Sedai acted like any other human organization filled with self important people convinced of their own power, ideas, and "righteous" causes. You take a look at US Congress during Obama through Trum or British Parliament with Brexit lately? Also portrayed as "bitchy school girls," Carhien nobility (more violent), Tairen nobility (opportunistic idiots), even Andor nobility.

I will give you the magic system as stemming from traditional ideas of masculine and feminine natures. I'm not sure if that makes it inherently misogynistic...hell the masculine side was literally toxic to use.

Sul'damn-Damane relationship is kind of about what you'd expect out of an attempt to enslave and control someone who can destroy armies. You'd wan't absolute certainty of no fuck-ups. This is slavery, of course the person in charge demands subservience. Not to mention, that fortunately for us, Jordan is not Terry Goodkind; who'd probably have half the woman in the series raped or near raped once a book.


Sure there are gendered preconceptions within many characters...but that's on BOTH sides, if you want to see nothing but misandry, that's on you. I find that the tensions between people of power in this series to be plausible. Especially considering it's not just political power we are talking about.

I mean, swap the White Tower women out with men...instead of "bitchy school girls" you now have an organization of "school yard bullies," where the guy with the most muscle has all the clout. No wait, he did that. The Black Tower is just more militaristic (how gendered again! No wait, war was its purpose...how gendered again!).

The thing about Siuan Sanche is that she was (and there are spoilers ahead) the Amyrlin Seat, essentially the supreme political power in the world as it was known (albeit considerably degraded over the centuries). From there she was deposed and forcibly stilled, a horrific experience but one that made sense within the plot. She escaped and made her way to the rebel Aes Sedai, who kept her at a distance because she had been stilled, but yes, during all this she continued the fight.

What completely undermines this arc however is that during her escape and long trek across the country, she encountered General Gareth Byrne who was in enforced retirement, she made him a promise and then she absconded because she considered her duty to the rebel aes sedai to be more important. He followed her, caught up with her, and insisted that she fulfil the terms of the bargain with him. While I cannot recall exact details of the bargain, it ended up with her being his scullion. The courtship also included the deeply infantalising comment that Byrne would sometimes 'punish' her by placing her, a grown woman who had once dealt with geopolitical matters of the utmost importance, across his knee and spanking her. Of course, she falls in love with him.

That is the most egregious example of the kind of attitude that is pervasive throughout the entire story in regards male-female relationships.

Now a bit of nuance for everyone. I am not saying the Wheel of Time is a misogynistic work, it is not. It isn't Gor. But there ARE misogynistic themes that do run throughout the story and which have been long recognised by wider fandom and are the topic of debate there as well. Recognizing that, and understanding that while it is a failure of storytelling it doesn't and shouldn't compromise people's enjoyment of the work, is the objective.

If anything, the misogynistic themes, while the most troubling parts of the story, are not it's greatest flaws. The greatest flaw was that Jordan lacked discipline as a writer. He would use twenty words where three would do.
He lost the shape of the narrative, with the plot growing out of control encompassing multiple threads many of which were not needed and were frankly not that interesting. Perrin Aybara was one of the main characters with a large section of the narrative devoted to his storyline and he was also one of the most boring characters in the entire series.
His prose was problematic, with a tendency for overly elaborate descriptions of character appearance and circumstances. This helped in the opening books with a smaller cast and a more focused narrative, but as the number of locations exploded and the number of named characters began expanding, it caused a noticeable drag on the pace of the story. As I have commented elsewhere, his character skills were problematic as the sheer number of background characters he developed turned into ciphers and stereotypes to keep the plot moving.

It maybe a sin to say it, but at the end when Sanderson had to write the conclusion to the storyline he imposed a sense of discipline and managed to bring it to somewhat satisfactory conclusion.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Looking at the cast, it looks exactly like those two I've mentioned.

Agreed, which is scary.