Some nightborne are gonna prefer Kaldorei/alliance over horde/BElves

[Ticj]

nightborne really should have been neutral. It really didnt make sense that they went fully genocidal against the people who helped save their city.

[Dr Assbandit]

This is why Teldrassil deserved burning.

At this point I'd light the match myself being a Nightelf player if it would stop these threads.

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nightborne really should have been neutral. It really didnt make sense that they went fully genocidal against the people who helped save their city.

The same goes for the Highmountain Tauren. Even if they are kin with the Tauren it makes no sense to go against a faction that helped them out, even if according to canon lore the Horde helped them out more. Ditto for the Lightforged Dranei considering the Horde also fought side by side with the army of the light.

[maccajoe]

yeah and some tauren probably prefer the alliance, i'm sure less moral humans might even want to join the horde. some orcs are in the argent dawn, i doubt those guys are happy with the horde right now and prefer the alliance

but as it turns out this is a game and for gameplay balance certain races are exclusive to certain factions. stop crying

Sounds like real life where you're apart of a country but not necessarily happy with the government or a myriad of other examples of people defecting to other countries or fighting their own country in opposition.
Stuff like this isnt new dont know what OP is smoking.

[Beloren]

They want to win and not be a bunch of punchbags under some nice guy beta male who probably did some horrible things to his his female friends from the priest seminar while they were drunk and passed out because this is exactly what nice guys who allow themselves to be pad on the back for being so non-toxic males tend to do?

You had me roflmao! This is so true.. and boy do we know this happens too.

We need an elf megathread so all the night elf, void elf, nightborne, and blood elf drones can congregate there and discuss how pretty and special they each are.

You're just jealous. You wish your girlfriend was hot like me !

[Directionalk9]

I get it now, I get why there’s a sub-sect of the player base that hates Elves... it’s not the Elves themselves, it’s the fanatical Elf fans...

[GreenJesus]

Jesus christ. Just make a night elf/nightborne megathread already. I like elves but you are seriously making me reconsider.

[Jester Joe]

yeah and some tauren probably prefer the alliance, i'm sure less moral humans might even want to join the horde. some orcs are in the argent dawn, i doubt those guys are happy with the horde right now and prefer the alliance

but as it turns out this is a game and for gameplay balance certain races are exclusive to certain factions. stop crying

There are Kul Tirans, and by extension humans in the Horde to tack onto this.

The entire pirate hub that the Horde uses to travel to Tiragarde Sound was the point of this. On top of that, there's even a world quest related to them during the incursion where you have to kill a Kul Tiran who shouts "FOR THE MONEY, I mean HORDE!" or something akin to that.

[Maxilian]

Regardless if some NB prefer the Alliance over the Horde, it may be too late now, why?

Cause why would the Alliance accept the NB when they worked against them twice, even though they did got the help of them once, also if the Alliance do accept them, it most likely will bring the rage of the Kaldorei, i mean... they are already angry with the head of the Alliance because of how soft-handed they have been with the Horde, so this won't be any different.

Also... is really likely that those that are not ok with how the Horde is right now, are already working with Lorthemar and Talysdra, so if they revelion works, they will feel even more connected to the BE.

[Garymorilix]

On-topic: Blizzard thought otherwise. End of discussion.

Off-topic: Can you just stop already? You're wasting like 3-4 hours each day typing some boring-ass elf stuff to open a thread about. You can discuss all your elf fanboi uwu garbage in ONE THREAD. Literally. Please someone stop this.

The problem is the number of threads created daily with the excuse of talking about Night Elves at some point or another.

Even the High Elf cult was contained in its own post.

I fuckin love this

Way to go

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I get it now, I get why there’s a sub-sect of the player base that hates Elves... it’s not the Elves themselves, it’s the fanatical Elf fans...

I feel like that's the case most of the time, yes. But this guy is a whole another level of fanaticism. At least High Elf fanbois can keep themselves in one thread.

[Caerule]

Okay, I think 6 more points were added to the opening post since I replied. So I'll answer the other six. First six are answered Here.

7. Going through 7.0, including WQs in places like Tel'anor, you find the nighborne really revere their night elven roots, in contrast ot the blood elves who are contemptuous and dismissive of it. This is bound to show in many nightborne proud and leaning towards the Kaldroei and generally prefer them.

The old Highborne empire is something both the Blood Elves and the Nightborne revere. Sure, Blood Elves consider the spellcraft the remaining Highborne wield to be outdated, but both the Nightborne and Blood Elves have held on to that legacy of the Highborne. It is the Night Elves to have abandoned that aspect of their precious incarnation, that the Nightborne now embody. The Highborne Night Elves may have been called Night Elves, but respecting them does not mean you respect their current namesakes. That would be ignoring 10.000 years of great change.

8. The Kaldorei have highborne, the alliance have high elves and void elves, they have an elven community that is more like minded ot how the nightborne were before 8.0 , some nightbonre are going to find this far more preferable than the blood elves and the horde.

The modern day Highborne are a stagnated relic whose homecoming has been anything but warm. They are a good indication of how the Nightborne would be received among the Night Elves. They are tolerated at best. And at least those are willing to live by the customs, rules and terms given to them by the Night Elves, if very reluctantly. Nightborne do not want to change their ways, and are considerably less Night Elf than these Modern Highborne are. The High Elves rejected even their own kin, when they went through what the Nightborne did. Why would they welcome Nightborne when they rejected Blood Elves? Void Elves are probably more welcoming. But a bunch of Voided up outcasts aren't really the most alluring company. And none of them are more preferable than Blood Elves. Silvermoon is practically their sister city.

9. The nightborne and the night elves share a bond, they are the elves from the city of Suramar, and from the region that famously rebelled against Queen ashara, from the Farondis iin Azsuna, to RAvencrest in black Rook hold,a dn the city of Suramar that had to fendoff a legion invasion, they share that and numerous racial characteristics.. some nightborne are bound to prefer to connect to that.

The racial characteristic of being a shade of purple and being tall, is all that yet connects these people. If they had been pale Night Elves or dark skinned Blood Elves in their base design, you would never have developed these obsessions and justifications. "But, they look alike" is the lizard brain talking, and really, it's the foundation of all of this.

The Night Elves rebelled against the Legion, and died for the world's survival. The Highborne of Suramar hid to survive, and became the strongest manifestation of all Night Elves despise. Some Night Elves grew up in Suramar. But those memories of the life before, does not mean that any elf that embraces the heart of Night Elven culture would ever wish to live in that place again.

10. Nightborne and night elves being nocturnal, and find a shared love and deep connecton to the stars and the moon, plus ofc the races' natural arcane affinity. don't let druidic night elves fool you, they are also talented with the arcane even though they follow the path of nature only.

Okay, that's ridiculous. Nightborne are not nocturnal and have no deep connection to the moon and stars. They haven't seen the sun, nor the moon, for 10.000 years. And calling upon celestial power through connection to the raw power of the world, the cosmos and the divine, isn't the same as being a studied master of the arcane arts at all.

11. Nightborne ofc have the shared history, shared age, racial charctersistics that are kaldorei, culturally the kaldorei arcane culture, which is the culture of the highborne, sometimes peopelt hink of the druidic culture and think because Daranassians have had a druidic culture it's nothing like the nightobnre. They'd be right about that, but wrong ato conclude that the nightborne have nothing in common with the night elves. The Highbonre amongst the nighte lves have the exact same culture the nightborne had up till 7.3.5, and the high elvs are more of like mind to the acharacter of both the kaldorei and the nightborne than they are to the blood elves - the position on arcane magic pracitce 7,000 years ago, was where they differed, and the night elves have changed their position (not their view, but their position). They altogether have more in common.

The Blood Elves have had a traitorous monarch, a people addicted to magic and fel, a Wretched/Withered problem, a separation from the people they once knew, a Legion invasion, a troublesome Well, an arcane culture, a strive to master magic, a culture of cities and nobility, and a steadfast strive to hold on to magic as their birthright. This is a kinship the Blood Elves immediately saw and felt, and acted upon. They have everything in common.

Meanwhile Modern Highborne are outcasts, just as the Blood Elven ancestors were. But they remained mostly stuck in the past, hiding out in Dire Maul, feeding on the essence of a demon. They too had an evil monarch situation. But this wasn't solved by them, but by outsiders. After which the displaced survivors were reluctantly granted asylum by the Night Elves, and barely tolerated within their city, on their terms. 100.000 Nightborne are supposed to align with the Night Elves that despise them, because they are tolerating a couple hundred Highborne? (Probably less since the fire.) Honestly if I was the Modern Highborne, I'd get the hell away from the Night Elves, and take my people to the Nightborne. But it's probably too late for that.

12. Racially, the nightborne are in the night elf category, culturally, they are not blood elves, they are kaldorei pre-sundering night elves. Evidence is in their saber mounts, their appearance, their city with all the Kaldorei symbols and architecture, states and positions which are described in War of the ancients : Well of Eternity and visually portrayed as Kaldorei. While they may have similarities, they are different.

I think the start of that is all you really got. "The Nightborne look more like Night Elves than Blood Elves. Races that look alike should be together". I feel that pretending the Night Elves and Shal'dorei are similar culturally is a falsehood though. Night Elven culture is based on rejection of the old Kaldorei culture, Especially the Highborne part. Being Nightborne is about holding on to the Highborne part, expanding and evolving it. They haven't been stagnant in the 10.000 years, both holding on to what they had, and building new things on that foundation, but in all the ways the Night Elves would reject. Sin'dorei culture too was built upon that Night Elf rejection. On holding on to the legacy of the Highborne and rejection of the new Night Elven way. Sure, their banishment cost them a lot of their foundation, but they rebuilt something highly similar, yet more advanced as well. They had their own rejection of the High Elves who took to ways that more align with Night Elves.

But, you knew all I have said already. We've had this discussion before.

[Darththeo]

Yes, there are going to be SOME Nightborne that like the Alliance over the Horde.

Just like they are going to be SOME Blood Elves that wish to have stayed Alliance.
Just like there may be other races that sympathize with the other faction too.

The question isn't "Do they exist?" but rather "Do they matter to the story Blizzard is trying to tell?"

[Mace]

Yes, there are going to be SOME Nightborne that like the Alliance over the Horde.

Just like they are going to be SOME Blood Elves that wish to have stayed Alliance.
Just like there may be other races that sympathize with the other faction too.

The question isn't "Do they exist?" but rather "Do they matter to the story Blizzard is trying to tell?"

or rather, would blizzard make them relevant?

If they were going to tell a decent story, they would matter, because this makes the race appear more realistic and it irons its story out. . The way the nightborne were presented, makes being all in for the horde not making much sense. And they don't have to be, nor should be. it's not a very good direction to take with this group given what their story is, who they represent, and the part of night elf history they are based from. How can a group like that be honourable and righteous by becoming enemies of their own people who have saved them 3 times, yet are fine with wholeheartedly jumping into bed with a group that only assits in 1 of the times.

For the type of character and nature they presented them as in 7.0, going all horde doesn't make sense. Becoming friends with the blood elves makes sense, becoming enemies with the night elves does not.

So if blizzard want a better story, they'd have to invest in telling one here to sort this mmess out.

I suspect Ravenmoon is right, senior devs saw a fancy pretty city, and found out how large the support was from within the horde, and so changed its destiny, from being a night elven thing, they went, alright we'll give it tot he horde, and that was that, not well thought out or presented. Delving in further would easily see that it is entirely realistic and good for the story that some are not leaning towards the blood elves at all - but whether they pursue this depends on them, and what they want.

[FossilFree]

What is even stranger about Horde Nightborne is that their closer cousins than the Night Elves, the Highborne Shen'dralar, are also part of the Alliance since Cataclysm. This whole "Blood Elves are more like us" nonsense doesn't really hold up when they have literally the same group (minus the Nightwell addiction) on Alliance already.

This was a case of the devs playing Horde, growing attached to how cool Suramar and the Nightborne were during Legion, and arbitrarily coming up with some crap to hamfistedly shoehorn them into the opposite faction to satisfy their own selfish desires (and in spite of the lore as well).

[Mace]

What is even stranger about Horde Nightborne is that their closer cousins than the Night Elves, the Highborne Shen'dralar, are also part of the Alliance since Cataclysm. This whole "Blood Elves are more like us" nonsense doesn't really hold up when they have literally the same group (minus the Nightwell addiction) on Alliance already.

This was a case of the devs playing Horde, growing attached to how cool Suramar and the Nightborne were during Legion, and arbitrarily coming up with some crap to hamfistedly shoehorn them into the opposite faction to satisfy their own selfish desires (and in spite of the lore as well).

Yep, I agree, and the rumour is it's the senior devs as they all play horde, the alliance fans would be in the junior ones that do the horde work and probably thought they were designing the night elves past for their present and future, only for the big guys to say, noy ou don't, this is too good for the alliance, the horde's got this.

Anyone with two eyes can see the nightborne are closer tot he alliance and the night elves before the blood elves, and it should let them know that the nightborne aren't I the horde because they have MORE similarities than they do with the night elves or alliance. They're in the horde officially because Liadrin asked them and Tyrande didn't, and unofficially because the horde players and senior dev leads wanted them in the horde.

They don't fit the horde very well, but then the blood elves didn't even, and yet..there they are.

[Rhlor]

It's just a numbers game, before we even get into the reasons why or how, if you were to take the lore seriously or realistically, you would agree not everyone is going to go along with or even agree with Thalyssra's decision to take the entire race over. But as Azshara said, there is a reason why she couldn't go higher than First Arcanist.

However their are plenty of good reasons some nightborne would actually prefer the other side. Not least in the way they introduced them.

If you were to properly show the nightborne after 7.2, some would prefer the night elves over the blood elves.

I don’t believe all of a sudden, all the nightborne are perfectly happy with the horde or the blood elves.

Here are 12 reasons that I feel will convince you that though the race may be allied to the horde atm, there are sufficiently enough plausible cause to believe that a large number would rather be with the night elves.

1. The horde is behaving exactly like the Legion, and it is not the first time, some nightborne would love this as they did let the legion in, but some would hate this. They would view the slaughter of elven life, their kin, so senselessly, and would hate it.

2. Blood elves would be viewed as biologically inferior elves by some, because the transition from night elf diminished them - it’s one of the reasons hate for Darnassian night elves is hard to let go - consequently some nightborne would look down on them. Remember Valtrois’ attitude - and we met quite a few worse than her.

3. Nightborne would view the blood elf part of sucking mana from creatures and demons, even people as utterly repulsive. Valtrois is disgusted at being forced to sift/feed from a key line to sate their addiction and that is a pure source - Withered suck mana fromnpeople and creatures and that mindless state is considered worse than death - some nightborne are going to consider blood elves truly lesser when they find out what the blood elves did and will prefer high elves over them.

4. Thalyssra in 8.0 declares her people can’t suffer to be the way they’ve been, and in the alliance that stagnation would continue - she may be prepared to change from the Kaldorei ways the nightborne have been in, but you can be certain that there would be those who do not. can be certain there would be nightborne who prefer their ways and certainly don’t think the horde or blood elf ways superior.

5. Kaldorei saved Suramar both in the Sundering and again from the curse of the nightwell through the Arcan’dor, as well as being instrumental in saving Suramar again from the Legion, s large number of nightborne will likely refuse to fight or kill any Kaldorei andnsome would definitely not view the alliance as enemies.

6. The nightborne definitely love nature a lot more as evidenced by the botanist and far more plant life in Suramar, also the existence of the arcand'or and the balance they get that comes via nature connects hem strongly to their kaldorei druidic brethren and is bountd to have some nightborne more interested in exploring nature.

7. Going through 7.0, including WQs in places like Tel'anor, you find the nighborne really revere their night elven roots, in contrast ot the blood elves who are contemptuous and dismissive of it. This is bound to show in many nightborne proud and leaning towards the Kaldroei and generally prefer them.

8. The Kaldorei have highborne, the alliance have high elves and void elves, they have an elven community that is more like minded ot how the nightborne were before 8.0 , some nightbonre are going to find this far more preferable than the blood elves and the horde.

9. The nightborne and the night elves share a bond, they are the elves from the city of Suramar, and from the region that famously rebelled against Queen ashara, from the Farondis iin Azsuna, to RAvencrest in black Rook hold,a dn the city of Suramar that had to fendoff a legion invasion, they share that and numerous racial characteristics.. some nightborne are bound to prefer to connect to that.

10. Nightborne and night elves being nocturnal, and find a shared love and deep connecton to the stars and the moon, plus ofc the races' natural arcane affinity. don't let druidic night elves fool you, they are also talented with the arcane even though they follow the path of nature only.

11. Nightborne ofc have the shared history, shared age, racial charctersistics that are kaldorei, culturally the kaldorei arcane culture, which is the culture of the highborne, sometimes peopelt hink of the druidic culture and think because Daranassians have had a druidic culture it's nothing like the nightobnre. They'd be right about that, but wrong ato conclude that the nightborne have nothing in common with the night elves. The Highbonre amongst the nighte lves have the exact same culture the nightborne had up till 7.3.5, and the high elvs are more of like mind to the acharacter of both the kaldorei and the nightborne than they are to the blood elves - the position on arcane magic pracitce 7,000 years ago, was where they differed, and the night elves have changed their position (not their view, but their position). They altogether have more in common

12. Racially, the nightborne are in the night elf category, culturally, they are not blood elves, they are kaldorei pre-sundering night elves. Evidence is in their saber mounts, their appearance, their city with all the Kaldorei symbols and architecture, states and positions which are described in War of the ancients : Well of Eternity and visually portrayed as Kaldorei. While they may have similarities, they are different.l

the nightborne more than part of the horde are allies of the blood elves, thalysrra always has the opinions of lorthemar in mind because he trusts him.
the nightborne are next to the blood elves because
1) share the same culture of an advanced arcane civilization
2) Tyrande discriminated against them and did not worry about creating ties with them, bad diplomat.
the blood elves were good diplomats

[matrix123mko]

Yep, I agree, and the rumour is it's the senior devs as they all play horde, the alliance fans would be in the junior ones that do the horde work and probably thought they were designing the night elves past for their present and future, only for the big guys to say, noy ou don't, this is too good for the alliance, the horde's got this.

There is also a rumour that Elvis Presley is alive in Area 51.

[Mace]

@Caerule : bear in mind these 12 erasons are not guarantees that this is how the nightborne feel, it's just showing that there are as much as 12 reasons for various nightborne to prefer the night elves.

You can't really disprove a possibility, we don't know that is how they feel now, but there is a good chance some would feel these various ways.

The old Highborne empire is something both the Blood Elves and the Nightborne revere.

This is not correct. Nightborne yes, Shen'dralar yes, kaldorei highborne - yes, Blood elves? NO, druidic night elves? NO, Priests? No.

You have no evidence this is the case for the blood elves. But you have evidence that they don't like the pre-sundering kaldorei empire. It was never called the highborne empire btw.

You shouldn't try to cut night elf out of kaldorei, or kaldorei out of highborne or highborne out of kaldorei or night elf - it's all tied tot he same thing.

the high elves, HATED the culture of the invasion period of the kaldorei empire - it's not arcane magic they hated, no, they hated the addiction, decadence and irresponsible use of magic that would compromise people and set them astray. When they set up Quel'thalas, they vowed it wou ld surpass the kaldorei empire and be better than it in every way, they would practice magic responsibly and diligently, none of the rubbish of the invasion period.

They also departed from as much kaldorei as they could. Arcane practice was revived, but not in the same manner or focus - they are not focused on the stars and moon, but rather the sun, hunting and forest rangering is also practiced, same as night elves - so knowledge is knowledge, just because they practice arcane and bowmanship doesn't mean all of a sudden they are the same, neither does the fact they love forests mean they are the same, they aactually choase a very forested area to call their new home because it reminded them most of kalimdor.

So while they loved their land, loved their racial knowledge of magic, and bowmanship, they also rejected a lot about it. They had the responsibility and earnestness of the long vigil group but rejected tehir fear of using magic, and while they developed an elven civilization which makes them seem more like the hiighborne of the kaldorei empire, it was a different civilization, different values, downe away with a lot of the crap of pre

Sure, Blood Elves consider the spellcraft the remaining Highborne wield to be outdated

That's not true, what makes you say that? when the lore says the night elf empire was the most advanced magically even by today's standards. it also shows you the Kirin'Tor, karazhan, searching for night elf arcane tomes and artifacts like most precious gold.. because of the knowledge they possess, in that 5,000 year period you had an entire global empire filled with all manner of wonders and arcane practice and knowledge, the stuff people would have come up with, the peaceful setting they would have had largely uninterrupted - and the type or quality of power they would have had in the Well of Eternity, has never been seen, nor likely ever will be, they would have made myriads of strides in all manner of area to the effect that millionscan actually yield.

It would take the entire world, being arcane minded, with a powerful source and arcane essensee at their core to make the same progress.. in other words, they won't match it today like it is now.

And the quest s in Azshara zone are night elf novices that are using outdated technology, some of them are returned highborne from a 10k year break, because when the shend'ralar were accepted and the highborne order re-insttuted, osme highborne who had stayed with the Darnassians and upheld the ban on arcane practice, reclaimed their heritage.. wea re told this in both cataclysm and in 2 of the lore books, we are also shown this in Azsuna, the twins looking for their parents are 2 such ancient highborne, stuck with the Darnassians, upholding the ban, and returned to their highborne roots once it was lifted.

The outdated magic in Azshara is confirmed by the devs to not be the shend'rlaar, but the new night elef mages in training. The novices.

, but both the Nightborne and Blood Elves have held on to that legacy of the Highborne.

Incorrect,t he blood elves and high elves did not hold on to the legacy of the highborne, they have the highborne past, but their presenet is very proudly their own, and they are very proud of this. The nightborne and shen'drlaar highborne continue in the culture of the highborne. it's not legacy to them, this is who they are, it is their present, not their "legacy".

It is the Night Elves to have abandoned that aspect of their precious incarnation, that the Nightborne now embody.

The Long Vigil night elves indeed did do this, aand the Darnassians that emerge from them is a different culture. But as you note below the Highborne they invite, and the nightborne of suramar and likely the Moonguard too, do not.

The Highborne Night Elves may have been called Night Elves, but respecting them does not mean you respect their current namesakes. That would be ignoring 10.000 years of great change.

That statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Highborne is a caste, the ones that are highborne are shown to still be highborne,, and they're lal night elves or nightborne. The high elves and blood elves aren't highborne nor do they continue in the highborne legacy, they are High elves and Blood elves now, they have their own ways and culture, just because it is high society like the highborne, doesn't mean they are same, and just because they practice arcane nad accept it society wide, doesn't mean they are the same either.

highborne night elves are still night elves and are still highborne. Highborne are still night elves, it's the name we give to the caste of night elves that developed for high arcane mastery. We don't givet his name to high elves or blood elves, they are descendants of highborne, but developed their own culture and we give them a different name. Quel'dorei in Thalassian translates High elf, Quel'dorei in Darnassian translates highborne. Different words are use because they are different. When the blood elves started going all reckless after the 3rd war, in a similar manner to the highborne, they warned the alliance of their highborne past.. but didn't warn the alliance of the high elves when they meet and fight with them on Mount hyjal, in fact when Tyrande first meets Kael'thas, she helps him. It's only later when the blood elves continue the fel stuff they warn them of the highborne past.

The modern day Highborne are a stagnated relic whose homecoming has been anything but warm.

Just like the nightbonre, because it's tehs ame culture. This is why Thlayssra claims she joins the horde, "our people will no longer suffer such stagnation" - in saying that her views align with that of the blood elves, and marks a new direction for her people.. which is another acknolwedgement

They are a good indication of how the Nightborne would be received among the Night Elves.

We have all the evidence already of how nightborne would be received amongst the night elves. The interaction with Valewalker Farodin, the moonugard, the Suramar refugees and Tyrande. You will get a range from compassion, support to disgust - but one and thes ame, help and support. By the end of the 7.1 campaign, Tyrande is cheering on the nightborne for standing up for themselves this time round instead o f refusing to join in the fight

They are tolerated at best. And at least those are willing to live by the customs, rules and terms given to them by the Night Elves, if very reluctantly.

This is pure speculation. The Darnassians accepted the Shen'dralar, there was reluctance at first, but they accepted the, and their numbers grew dramatically, in stark contrast to such claims. I think there a re people who want the Darnassiasn to be the magic hating long vigil group they perceived them to be in WC3, however these people not only misunderstand the reasons why the arcane was banned, but also don't get what was happening either. They also typically don't updage their lore, and don't follow the changes .. why? Because they aren't night elf fans, and the few that are with this persuasion haven't cared for anything shown about nighte lves after WC3, viewing it all as a catastrophic failure - not realising that they may have missed the truth about the ight elves from the start if they have based the race on hating the arcane.

The highborne are fully accepted... it's amazing how people take this other view. The only ngith elf shown to have such views is MAiev during wolfhear tand ilildan, as well as the pre-legion audio comic. Her motivationsa nd reasons are thoroughly detailed in the nighte lf books and she is shown to be alone in htat singleminded hatred and nonn-acceptance.

Now a discussion on how the night elves may feel about the arcane is a different subject, and I can show you how tihis changes from creation to pre-sundering through various eras, then throughout the long vigil, and then changing again during wow, and how it must be changed

Nightborne do not want to change their ways, and are considerably less Night Elf than these Modern Highborne are

.

That's just false. Nightborne infact very much want to change their ways, firstly Thalsysra and Ly'leth change the ways from the cruel highbonre to the more kaldorei resitsance type of night elf. Then after Legion she declares she would no longer suffer the stagnation they'd been in , which is what life under the alliance would continue. She says this because the developers know they had designed the nightborne as kaldorei highborne types in a kaldorei vein..this is no mystery.. only players keep rubbing the blood elves in something tehir not, the devleoeprs and anyone who reads the lore sees and knows that they are showing Kaldorei culture in the nightborne.

The High Elves rejected even their own kin, when they went through what the Nightborne did. Why would they welcome Nightborne when they rejected Blood Elves?

Why wouldn't they? Are they not in Suramar alongside the other elven groups helping the nightborne? Do they not also know what addiction is like and didn't resort to sucking mana of living creatures or demons, but like the nightborne, cfoudn items and leylines to sate their thirst, why would they reject the nightborne? DO you think it's the blood leves that are the only ones that have had to deal with addiction pangs? Did you not read the War of the anacient,s or the many books on night elf past that tell you the night elves all had to deal with this when the Well imploded. Do you not realise the nightorne are telling the story of night elven addiction - why do you think it's different from the thalassian addiction... their addiction shows up when they don't have mana, they devolve, because they've been warped by so much arcane energy - they've been ingesting arcane as food for sustenance for a few thousand years.. in contrast the Thalassians, carve more and more and the more they ingest goes beyond their race's capacity to cope, waring them in to Wretched. easily confused with withered, but the exact opposite.

Void Elves are probably more welcoming. But a bunch of Voided up outcasts aren't really the most alluring company. And none of them are more preferable than Blood Elves. Silvermoon is practically their sister city.

Lol... no they are not, the high elves and highborne on the kaldorei would be better company. Also Silvermoon is the city of both the high elves and blood elves. Though the blood leves alone hold it now, it's the entire people that created it. Just like although the nightborne hold Suramar, it is all the night elf people that created it. the Darnassians mostly come from there.

Silvermoon is a sister city in the sense that it is the "sister" elf group, the night elves that created it.. but otherwise it isn't, it's an opposite city, one based on the night, moon and stars, while the other is based on the sun. they are both splendid but in different ways, if you're saying their sisters because they're both high magic cities, then I guess that's work too. Just know they're different.

The racial characteristic of being a shade of purple and being tall, is all that yet connects these people. If they had been pale Night Elves or dark skinned Blood Elves in their base design, you would never have developed these obsessions and justifications. "But, they look alike" is the lizard brain talking, and really, it's the foundation of all of this.

Who says this with a straight that nightborne are purple blood elves.. this is what void elves. Nightborne are arcane culture night elves. They're night elf models skinnier with a different stand animation, blood elves are as much similar to nightborne as they are to night elves - especially the highborne variety.

The Night Elves rebelled against the Legion, and died for the world's survival. The Highborne of Suramar hid to survive, and became the strongest manifestation of all Night Elves despise. Some Night Elves grew up in Suramar. But those memories of the life before, does not mean that any elf that embraces the heart of Night Elven culture would ever wish to live in that place again.

The night elves that rebelled against the legion also came from Suramar City, some in the city joined the priesthood and resistance, others chose to stay... and it's their arcane addiction then accepteing the legion that any night elf would find despisable, but i'ts not so simply clear cut. the night elves don't colelctilvey wholesale condemn the nightborn do they, many of them work with the nightborne, work to save them, some very compassionately.

And it doesn't matter if your memories were from before, it doesn't mean you would have no connection or no love for a place. the night elves were devastated by the legion invasion because it destroyed and cost them their entire civlziation and nearly their world. They loved both, if they didn't, they wouldn't miss it or consider it such a loss. What night elves who came to their sense came to hate was not their magic, nor their civilziaiton or cities, but their attitude, the callous arrogant, reckless and abusive addiction. That's why the nighte lves hate that, but still accept the arcane in mages of the humans and draenor, and their own highborne, because when the shen'dralar cleaned up, they accepted them, they blasted them for their role in the legion (which was staying silent for

Okay, that's ridiculous. Nightborne are not nocturnal and have no deep connection to the moon and stars. They haven't seen the sun, nor the moon, for 10.000 years. And calling upon celestial power through connection to the raw power of the world, the cosmos and the divine, isn't the same as being a studied master of the arcane arts at all.

Look at them, they are night elves, that have bene living in perpetual night, what makes you think they are not nocturnal.. or did the borne added to night some how confuse you night(borne) elves? Or the elation in their voices when the shield comes down and they say.. "we see the stars once more".. or the Moon symbols all over the city that they didn't take down or change.. unlike the high elves who rebuilt an entirely new city, and live based on the day.

The Blood Elves have had a traitorous monarch, a people addicted to magic and fel, a Wretched/Withered problem, a separation from the people they once knew, a Legion invasion, a troublesome Well, an arcane culture, a strive to master magic, a culture of cities and nobility, and a steadfast strive to hold on to magic as their birthright. This is a kinship the Blood Elves immediately saw and felt, and acted upon. They have everything in common.

What traitorous monarch di dthe night elves have that Elisande was compared to and based on? That everyone is dealing with right now? Oh wait.. Queen Azshara.. could it be, that this is a night elf story based on night elf. could it be that the kael'thas betrayal story was modelled after the night elf story of Azshara, rather than elisande being based on Kael''thas.. when all the comparsions in legion are with Elisande and Azshara, not Kael'thas.

Meanwhile Modern Highborne are outcasts, just as the Blood Elven ancestors were. But they remained mostly stuck in the past, hiding out in Dire Maul, feeding on the essence of a demon.

They aren't outcasts, they joined with the night elves, you're again not updating your lore. And in the long vigil era, they never joined the long vigil group, so how could they have been outcasts, the high elves were outcasts, exiled together, the shend'ralar never were to the Daranssians.

They too had an evil monarch situation. But this wasn't solved by them, but by outsiders. After which the displaced survivors were reluctantly granted asylum by the Night Elves, and barely tolerated within their city,

Reluctant? You make it sound like it was the shen'dalralar were the only ones that wanted to join the n Darnassians, I seem to recall many night elves wanting this to happen, including Tyrande and Malufrion who also argued their case, and Wolfheart showing us that iit was Maiev opposing their acceptance, and Maiev who had stirred up hateand were only a small group that was reluctant, not the whole night elves.. this ofc is in wolfheart..

And barely tolerated? What is barely tolerated about the Highborne, they are in the temple area, which is the most pristigeous part of Darnassus, they are called on and relied on a lot durin g cataclysm, their portals save most of the dAranssians in thewar of thorns, and are the part of the night elves that have helped the Alliance the most, when you judge the night elf units that show up for the alliance throughout moP, WoD and BFA, the largest number are the mages.

on their terms.

Wolfheart shows all the terms of the Highborne were accepted. This was the condition of their re-entry, anyone who says otherwise is making it up, they have no evidence to support their assumptions that the magic was restricted and monitored by someone other than the very shend'rlar themselves who were in charge of the magic.

You don't understand alliances -- if the Darnassiasn don't trust the Shen'dralar, there is no point going into an alliance, it doesn'twork like that, expecting people to fight for you and give their lives for you channelling marcane magic, which you can somehow control and determine what is enough and what iisn't? It makes no sense whatsoever and off course is not the case.

the shend'ralar monitor their magic, and they are the ones that have the ultimate say so on arcane matters for the Kaldorei currently, they have full autonomny and select their own students and don't have to conform to the culture of the druids. Read wolfheart again. Please. And update your lore, the night elves are no longer in the long vigil era, they don't hold the same views

100.000 Nightborne are supposed to align with the Night Elves that despise them, because they are tolerating a couple hundred Highborne? (Probably less since the fire.) Honestly if I was the Modern Highborne, I'd get the hell away from the Night Elves, and take my people to the Nightborne. But it's probably too late for that

.Hyperbole.. acceptance is not tolerance.

I think the start of that is all you really got. "The Nightborne look more like Night Elves than Blood Elves. Races that look alike should be together". I feel that pretending the Night Elves and Shal'dorei are similar culturally is a falsehood though. Night Elven culture is based on rejection of the old Kaldorei culture, Especially the Highborne part. Being Nightborne is about holding on to the Highborne part, expanding and evolving it. They haven't been stagnant in the 10.000 years, both holding on to what they had, and building new things on that foundation, but in all the ways the Night Elves would reject. Sin'dorei culture too was built upon that Night Elf rejection. On holding on to the legacy of the Highborne and rejection of the new Night Elven way. Sure, their banishment cost them a lot of their foundation, but they rebuilt something highly similar, yet more advanced as well. They had their own rejection of the High Elves who took to ways that more align with Night Elves.

But, you knew all I have said already. We've had this discussion before.

Well we definitely, definitely disagree on this, show me where in the lore supports any of your points/ I have taken each point of yours and shown you from the lore and reason why this isn't so, because people keep confusing the night elf lore and don't update their lore.

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There is also a rumour that Elvis Presley is alive in Area 51.

It is rumour. Could be completely false. We do know they said they debated it a lot, and felt it was a close one..but awarded the nightborne to the blood elves.

I suspect the official argument was for the horde to get another pretty city and pretty people, bu that's b/s they could have used another race for that and Zuldazar was in the works already, so it's a pretext, the real reason, I suspect (also rumoured) is that they are horde fans and quite fancied the pretty city on the horde because of their current love bias to it.. the senior devs.

Note I said current, because these things can change. blizzard started driving themselves to build uop the horde after classic had 70:30 Alliance to horde ratios.. they've been pushing the horde so hard, many of them have come to like the horde more.like their pet project in wow.. the one they had to think of more creatively to improve and make more attractive...and that trend has continued. so even in legion when the horde was more peopular than the alliance, and they gave a night elf expansion, they couldn't help but take the nicest thing about the night elves and give it to the horde.

It's my opnion, and I feel it's not the junior devs, but a horde majority senior dev that doest this.

A race that is in the night elf lore category and group and has nothing to do with the horde. And while sure all of that can change (as it did), the circumstances say it all

[Aurabolt]

NB should have been a neutral race, and so should HM Taurens as well. But Blizzard didn't like how the Panda experiment turned out, so here we are.

Had Blizzard not gone all or nothing as usual, a few races would've left the Alliance/Horde by now while half the Allied Races would be neutral. Hands down Nightborne should have been Neutral if not Alliance. The reasoning for them being Horde made no fucking sense. Period. HMT should've been Neutral. As of BFA Tauren, NELVES, Worgen and maybe Huojin Pandaren are Neutral.

I'd have split the Nightborne by having Thalyassra meet with Lorthe'mar, Liadrin, Tyrande and Mordent Evenshade. She decides to give her people leave to work with both the Alliance and the Horde but as a whole, The Nightborne will be Neutral. Similar to the Pandaren where the Alliance NB and the Horde NB have their own factions kinda like mercenaries almost.

[Mace]

Had they not gone all or nothing as usual, a few races would've left the Alliance/Horde by now while half the Allied Races would be neutral. Hands down Nightborne should have been Neutral if not Alliance. The reasoning for them being Horde made no fucking sense. Period. HMT should've been Neutral. As of BFA Tauren, NELVES, Worgen and maybe Huojin Pandaren are Neutral.

I'd have split the Nightborne by having Thalassra meet with Lorthe'mar, Liadrin, Tyrande and Mordent Evenshade. She decides to give her people leave to worth with both the Alliance and the Horde but as a whole, The Nightborne will be Neutral.

Think about it tooo, they could acutally be a faction of their own.. night elf, nightborne, worgen, pandaren and HMT..but they don't have to be off course, they are just fine as hteir own communities..some of them would be closer with each other.. for example, night elf and nightborne would become very close, HMT woul d be close tot hem too because of location.

Pandaren would bbe their own because they have a whole continent.

Maybe if they present they reflect the kaldorei more strongly in the nightborne it would feel more like it's 2 night elf groups with one on each faction ..which is exactly what it is..except people don't seem to be connecting the nightborne with the kaldorei they are..

it's not really the devs fault, all the info and presentation shows this quite strongly, but I think some fans in desperately trying to justify why the nightborne are in the horde or should be are trying to alienate them from the kaldorei or their kaldorei lore, going to the extent of repainting the blood elves purely in a highborne light in an attempt to prove them the same, . But the lore is quite clear, all these guys end up showing is that there is similaritiy between blood elves and nightborne, which no one doubted, it doesn't show that they have more in common with blood elves over the night elves, but they want it so bad, denying all night elf legitimacy to deny in some twisted way everything alliance fans will claim, so they can "keep" what they should never have gotten.

But that's just some fans, while we may agree they shouldn't have been on the horde only, but neutral or alliance, the fac tis no matter all the lore reasons we can showt hat matches them more to the alliance, they are not on it, and blizzard gave them the perfect allerby, they didn't base the joining on how similar the blood elves are to the nightborne, in fact thalyssra states the similarity the nightborne have with the night elves, because this is what is the stronger likeness.. she chooses to join Liadrin, because tyrande didn't ask and because she feels under the alliance they will suffer the same stagnation they've been under the last 10k years, the blood elves offer them something new.

now how would this be the case if the nightborne were more similar to the blood elves than they were the night elves?

They aren't ofc, just fanswanting the best night elven stuff as well as the best high elven stuff on their favourite horde faction.. and blizzard gave it to them..

[FossilFree]

What is even more infuriating about the whole deal is the biased double standard. It was apparently a-ok to take the Shen'dralar, give them a makeover and expansion dedicated to them, and instead of putting on the faction with their actual allies, they get put on the opposite one. But when it came to designing something that was a fair exchange for this, just going with High Elves was a bridge too far, and no, that can't happen? Must not happen! They have to get some weird twist that has nothing to do with anything and literally make them deVOID of any lore. I'm sure that was also a good laugh and spiteful joke from the Horde loving dev in charge. And people wonder why the High Elf thing blew up so bad and continues exploding to this very day. It all ties into this decision with the Nightborne the hypocritical unfairness that it spawned.

It would be like if Dark Iron Dwarves had gone to Horde for Reasons(TM), even though they are full Alliance members as of Cataclysm (and their leader is actually the leader of all the dwarves). Could you imagine the outrage? But that is what happened here with the Highborne Shen'dralar/Nightborne.

Devs should not be treating factions as some sort of sports team to be rabid fans of. They have a responsibility to both factions, and if that can't be achieved by the current leadership, it is probably time for someone who can achieve it to take the reins.