Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Relapses]

I'm probably a glutton for punishment but I actually enjoyed the LFR when it was slightly more difficult (in the Cata-MoP days). Complete shit shows like Durumu and Garalon were always greatly amusing to me. The LFR from WoD onwards has seemingly doubled down on the "tourist mode" difficulty and I feel like it's done more harm than good. There exist some remarkably shitty players who struggle with even Normal mode raiding and I feel like the LFR has kind of reinforced this. Like, okay, maybe internet dragon slaying isn't your strong suit. But at some point the game should be trying to ask you to exercise brain activity more so than a comatose quadriplegic toddler. It's scary how shitty some WoW players have become.

As an aside, what exactly does this have to do with Classic WoW?

[mvaliz]

An MMO thrives when people make emotional connections in-game. LFR destroys that because you can group for content without talking to anyone. There is NO compromise here because its CORE to the game to eliminate LFR.

Or maybe... bear with me now... or maybe the player makes a positive emotional connection with the game via LFR because he doesn't have to rely on some elitist jackasses and their time-schedules! And now, he and his RL buddies can enjoy a laid-back raiding experience and have fun while laughing and forming their own adventures their way.

Different playstyles for different people - whodathunkit!!?

[Liaku]

LFR

When there is a easy mode version you can try at any moment at the press of a button...it devalues the "actual" experience.
Raiding AQ 40 ceases to be an "epic" experience when YOU have the option to see it at any time.

For something to be "epic" it needs to be exclusive.
There is nothing epic in this world if its not exclusive...nothing.
Thats just the reality if you want to call something "epic" in feeling.

Adversity creates epicness.
A world without LFR is offers more adversity to the player and creates an epic feel when you do the actual experience.

(i still think Modern WoW should have LFR, because this are different times)

What does "epic" even mean here? A story can be epic, can't it? That's where the word comes from, and stories aren't exclusive. Starting with TBC there is a lot of story locked behind raids. Why shouldn't people have the ability to witness it if that's all they really want out of the raid? How does that at all devalue the experience for people who are after the satisfaction of beating a challenge?

It's like if you finally save up money and get the chance to go to some really cool place that you've always wanted to go to, and then you meet someone who lives nearby and goes all the time. Does that somehow subtract from your experience? You're objectively experiencing the same thing they are, but they put less effort into it. Subjectively, however, it means something very different to you because of how much effort it took.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Frankly, if other people (who happen to be less skilled than you) getting to experience the same content as you de-values your own experience to the point that you want the easy version removed (thus depriving lesser skilled players of access to the content), you need to seek professional help.

Options are good. People are different with different tastes and skill levels. Easy modes are good. The kind of person who doesn't want an easy mode because it "de-values" the harder modes for them should never, ever be catered to IMO. That's just a toxic attitude.

[huth]

That is not at all the reason.

I'm against LFR because it trivializes difficult content, rewards players for doing almost nothing, and makes guilds and group content irrelevant. Recruiting was much easier before LFR became a thing, partially because many people raid out of a desire to witness the content and the raid.

It does? How? I don't remember Mythic/HC becoming any easier when DS LFR was released. I don't remember that supposed dip in recruiting, either.

You sure you didn't just make that stuff up?

[Relapses]

Frankly, if other people (who happen to be less skilled than you) getting to experience the same content as you de-values your own experience to the point that you want the easy version removed (thus depriving lesser skilled players of access to the content), you need to seek professional help.

Options are good. People are different with different tastes and skill levels. Easy modes are good. The kind of person who doesn't want an easy mode because it "de-values" the harder modes for them should never, ever be catered to IMO. That's just a toxic attitude.

I'm fine with the LFR. I'm not fine with the LFR making the game wheel chair accessible. Does that make me an asshole? Probably. But I think the LFR's current difficulty trend ultimately devalues raiding as a whole because it enables truly lazy behavior in players.

::shrug::

[huth]

What does "epic" even mean here? A story can be epic, can't it?

An epic(or epos) is a story with certain characteristics, e.g. the epic of gilgamesh. The correct statement would be "a story can be an epic".

So calling things epic is basically saying they'd feature majorly in an epic, or could one have written about them. Same goes for legendary. It's a bit of hyperbole for "particularly notable item". As far as i can tell, none of those characteristics are "only accessible to a small group of people" though.

[Big Thanks]

What does "epic" even mean here? A story can be epic, can't it? That's where the word comes from, and stories aren't exclusive. Starting with TBC there is a lot of story locked behind raids. Why shouldn't people have the ability to witness it if that's all they really want out of the raid? How does that at all devalue the experience for people who are after the satisfaction of beating a challenge?

It's like if you finally save up money and get the chance to go to some really cool place that you've always wanted to go to, and then you meet someone who lives nearby and goes all the time. Does that somehow subtract from your experience? You're objectively experiencing the same thing they are, but they put less effort into it. Subjectively, however, it means something very different to you because of how much effort it took.

Its not because "someone else also went to the same Metallica concert i went to" that the experience lost value.
Its not about what "others" do at all. Nobody cares about other people.
Its about ME having the option to pick the easy mode at any given time. The problem is me not facing any adversity.

What is happening in LFR is something similar to this (giving your example):

-There is a Metallica concert in Orlando next week
BUT
-I live in a city where Metallica gives concerts everyday (aka i have the LFR option at my disposal)

I dont want to go to Orlando to see Metallica, when I (me) can go to their concert everyday on my city.

[huth]

I'm fine with the LFR. I'm not fine with the LFR making the game wheel chair accessible. Does that make me an asshole? Probably. But I think the LFR's current difficulty trend ultimately devalues raiding as a whole because it enables truly lazy behavior in players.

::shrug::

How does that devalue raiding as a whole when it only works in LFR?

[apples]

Because it gives you a false sense of accomplishment, that will lower your ambitions to actually do the content in the appropriate way: heroic/mythic with a group of friends.

even though hard data proves you wrong, you still believe this

quality big brain plays

[Rendark]

Dumb people always get mad when a easy mode is put into a game.

[iamthedevil]

Because it gives you a false sense of accomplishment, that will lower your ambitions to actually do the content in the appropriate way: heroic/mythic with a group of friends.

lol that is the biggest load of horse shit. I personally got back into raiding because of lfr. Does that break your theory?

[huth]

Its not because "someone else also went to the same Metallica concert i went to" that the experience lost value.
Its not about what "others" do at all. Nobody cares about other people.
Its about ME having the option to pick the easy mode at any given time. The problem is me not facing any adversity.

What is happening in LFR is something similar to this (giving your example):

-There is a Metallica concert in Orlando next week
BUT
-I live in a city where Metallica gives concerts everyday (aka LFR)

I dont want to go to Orlando to see Metallica, when I (me) can go to their concert everyday on my city.

Except the concert in Orlando is a much more elaborate one than the ones in your own city, so you're still missing out on things because you didn't go the extra mile.

Metallica also thinks the people going to the concerts in your city aren't really all that serious about being their fans.

[Relapses]

How does that devalue raiding as a whole when it only works in LFR?

It enables bad habits. I wouldn't be as against it if there were at least a few bosses which required slightly more intellectual acuity than a ham sandwich. Right now I just feel they've moved the difficulty slider way too far to the left.

[iamthedevil]

Its not because "someone else also went to the same Metallica concert i went to" that the experience lost value.
Its not about what "others" do at all. Nobody cares about other people.
Its about ME having the option to pick the easy mode at any given time. The problem is me not facing any adversity.

What is happening in LFR is something similar to this (giving your example):

-There is a Metallica concert in Orlando next week
BUT
-I live in a city where Metallica gives concerts everyday (aka i have the LFR option at my disposal)

I dont want to go to Orlando to see Metallica, when I (me) can go to their concert everyday on my city.

The one near you is the nose bleed sections. Mythic is where you get to rail cocaine off a strippers ass backstage with the band. There's a difference there.

[Big Thanks]

Except the concert in Orlando is a much more elaborate one than the ones in your own city, so you're still missing out on things because you didn't go the extra mile.

Metallica also thinks the people going to the concerts in your city aren't really all that serious about being their fans.

Its Metallica, in flesh and blood right in front of me...their music piercing my ears and me having a boner.
Its the same thing...

Analogies are fun but they suck at actually comparing things, so let me tell you how i actually feel.

I used to love raiding because it was a place i would NEVER be a part of if i didnt put in the "work" for it.
So, in a way, i used to love raiding because it was a "special" place i would never be because of the specific "adversity" of being exclusive.

- - - Updated - - -

The one near you is the nose bleed sections. Mythic is where you get to rail cocaine off a strippers ass backstage with the band. There's a difference there.

Ahahah loool that is a fun analogy i laughed irl

[-aiko-]

How does that devalue raiding as a whole when it only works in LFR?

As the poster said, it enables truly lazy behavior in players. If a player experiences raiding through LFR, and decide they want to take the next step into finding a guild and doing normal/heroic, they bring this behavior with them. These are the people guilds have to deal with when they are trying to recruit.

LFR doesn't need to be "hard", but as a team activity it should encourage actually working together as a team. Instead most groups avoid actively saying anything and either zerg the bosses to death with determination stacks or get lucky and have tanks and a few good players who know what they are doing and carry the whole raid to victory.

[Kuja]

I have no idea. I love LFR. I haven't had the time to join raiding guilds, or have the gear/achievements to join pugs. So with LFR I can at least experience the raids.

[Phuongvi]

Because raiding was, at some point, reserved to the people who knew what they were doing in the game(well almost), Like flask, potion, hit cap stats, enchant, food and all the stuff. Plus reading all the strats for the fights
Not everybody could be in raid thus because potenmtial skill and the minimal effort. LFR gave the opportunity topeople with nio idea what the fuck they were doing ( agility staff for a warlock, agility gem for a priest, no flask, no food buff, no interest of learning the fights)
Good players were giving almost a free ride to theses guys (aka carry). And these people would get some interesting loot ( well almost) , wich they don’t deserved ( in the mind of some people)
Now people don’t give a shit in LFR , no need to enchant, flask, gems or buff. Facerolling and that’s it. Plus, most of the stats are now removed, they keep it simple.
Everyone is equal in LFR equally bad or equally I dont give a fuck anymore.

[Warheart]

My only qualm with LFD/LFR is the fact that you can queue from anywhere and get to the instance without any travel requirement, which results in an extremely low open world population.