Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Milfshaked]

Just because WoW has been in decline since LFR doesn't mean LFR didn't have a net positive effect on subscriber retention or peak values.

I know plenty of people who only stay subscribed long enough to complete LFR for each dungeon. They would be subscribed less if LFR didn't exist.


In other words, WoW's subscription totals would be lower without LFR.

That is literally what I said in my post. Correlation does not equal causation, that is pretty basic. Though in a situation where you have a correlation, assuming that the opposite of that correlation is true is also not that smart.

Also, just because you know people that stay subscribed long enough to complete LFR for each dungeon does not mean that WoW subscriptions would be lower without LFR. If you made the game ultra elitist for the top 0.00001% players WoW would probably gain a few people that like that. It would of course however be a net loss since even more people would dislike it. Someone subbing for something does not mean that thing is an overall increase if it hurts more than it gains.

[frott]

LFR isn't "detrimental to the game." It's detrimental to a game where everyone is required to do the hardest of hardcore progression or suffer / have no content. And that is detrimental to subscriptions.

Ask any non-hardcore raider how obnoxious it was to key up people, the fragmenting of raid groups in karazhan, and the management of classes and roles were simply because people didn't want to do progression, wait for loot, and be slowed down by others, just to get a sense of completion and story.

That's where LFR came in.


Honestly if they wanted to kick some life into the game, they'd make raids where groups of 5 would queue and be somewhat self-sustaining in a larger, difficult, raid.

95% of the difficulty of raiding is the social / time aspect of the game. If you could guarantee raiders with 100% attendance X days a week, you basically guarantee victory if they're all on the same page regarding skill and strats.

I'm not going to sit in a BS virtual world "waiting for someone to start a raid" and it to happen, and I'm not spending the time playing middle management to an MMO company. Running a progression guild back when progression was beating the only content in the game, the leadership all felt like it was a second job and blizzard should be paying us to provide the systems so that players could see their content.

Again, enter LFR. It acts as a great filter of players who want to see the game without actually wasting their lives doing it.


So, yes, the playerbase will diminish. But hey, look around. Not too many games have the nads to actually charge a subscription any more. Guess why? Because you have to put in pure garbage like LFR and silly repetitive, timesink content like M+ dungeons (snore) and artifact necks/spam levels (snore, snore) to make that work.


I'd see it as a filter of dedication. If you don't like LFR, don't do it, and stay around people who farm the game and organize to chase whatever carrot on a stick they put in front of you.

Otherwise, just deal with the fact that the story can be beaten without doing the 3 other difficulties. lol? LFR/Normal/heroic/mythic is such a ridiculous concept i'm surprised it's lasted this long.

[damonskye]

So you can factually claim that the dumbing-down of the game has not caused people to quit the game?

Honestly, you can't and the fact that you pretend to know this as absolute is concerning. If you care to keep making statements like that, we can just stop here. I don't care to waste my time with that kind of mental gymnastics.

The... real hard truth? What are you on about? I never talked about seeking players being a problem. Never claimed anything about lies or truth. If you want to go off on a tangent or blog, be my guest. It's about time I digress from this anyway, it's not going anywhere.

You're ranting about a silly thing in a VIDEO GAME that will never be taken away - NOT EVER - just because you think it's doing things it's not, like dumbing down the game or causing people not to raid.

There's your real hard truth, sport.

LFR. Is. Never. Going. Away.

[Sesto]

It's honestly amazing how LFR defenders have such a large victim complex. Every post seems to reek with defensiveness like they're being personally attacked.

[frott]

That is literally what I said in my post. Correlation does not equal causation, that is pretty basic. Though in a situation where you have a correlation, assuming that the opposite of that correlation is true is also not that smart.

Also, just because you know people that stay subscribed long enough to complete LFR for each dungeon does not mean that WoW subscriptions would be lower without LFR. If you made the game ultra elitist for the top 0.00001% players WoW would probably gain a few people that like that. It would of course however be a net loss since even more people would dislike it. Someone subbing for something does not mean that thing is an overall increase if it hurts more than it gains.

No, it isn't literally what you said in your post.

You literally said:

"WoW has been on quite a steady decline ever since around that time LFR was introduced. Now of course, that does mean that LFR is responsible for this decline, there are of course other factors. **It seems quite wild though to suggest that LFR saved the game when there is absolutely nothing to support it and all existing evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.**"

It doesn't seem quite wild to suggest that LFR saved the game.

Correlation does not equal causation, that is pretty basic.

This is not relevant. What is relevant is that LFR didn't increase the number of subs lost, so asserting that LFR is the cause of bleeding subs is silly.

Also, just because you know people that stay subscribed long enough to complete LFR for each dungeon does not mean that WoW subscriptions would be lower without LFR. If you made the game ultra elitist for the top 0.00001% players WoW would probably gain a few people that like that. It would of course however be a net loss since even more people would dislike it. Someone subbing for something does not mean that thing is an overall increase if it hurts more than it gains.

OK well feel free to make assumptions about whatever you'd like but it's pretty trivial to just look up a subscription chart and see that LFR didn't have a net-negative impact on the game, or that removing LFR would somehow magically increase subscribers even though accessibility by definition in this context means more people interacting with the product.

Anyone who ran a progression guild that fell apart due to the lack of accessibility and players willing to progress as the ONLY content can tell you more than mere anecdote: there are more people willing to play LFR only, never bother with raids, and unsub than there are those willing to do the content all the way. Is that even a question?

People just want to assign functionality to something that is pretty easily defined as old and less and less relevant. Is LFR the reason that google search and related website traffic has plumetted as well? Or how about just general same-ness and disinterest? People want to blame something as minor as LFR



Reverse that argument: do you think having Mythic difficulty hurt the game? I do. I think it hurt subs vastly more than LFR. It made it so that players felt inferior for not no-lifing the game, that the "actual game" worth thinking about was this efficiency check that a tiny fraction of players bothered with, and that throwing themselves at lesser content when they can just watch a video of it or get a polished strat with minimal effort was pointless.

At least when the only content was the hardest content, watching someone else do the content was RELEVANT TO YOU as a player.

"Wow, look at them do the same content I'm doing except they're skillful at it" > "wow look at these clowns who nolifed a private server or beta and scripted things down via addons completely trivializing the thing that will realistically take me a lot of time to do."


People would have a cogent argument about LFR if that was the ONLY raid difficulty. But it's not. Let's stop pretending that the floor is what's overhead, not the ceiling.

[KaPe]

It's honestly amazing how LFR defenders have such a large victim complex. Every post seems to reek with defensiveness like they're being personally attacked.

And they aren't? Plenty of times we can see people claiming that "brainless monkeys/any retard/insert insult can do LFR and succeed." And seeing how said people can still wipe for any number of reasons, what does that make them? Are you going to say that people writing that shit aren't attacking these players?

And it always comes from those wannaba elites, who aren't quite good enough to be in high level mythic guild - where neither LFR or normal difficulty are on anyone's mind - but decent enough that they can flex in lfr. More often than not, they feel so insulted by being accompanied by these lesser players and "forced" to do FLR for some reason. If only Blizzard remove that game type, these casual plebs would have to learn to raid or leave.

'Course, this shitty attitude makes said "bad" players dislike all kind of "elitist" raiders, including those who couldn't care less about the issue. In their mind, it's the same community of hardcore assholes who look down upon anyone and want to take their content away. Especially when see someone go "are you feeling insulted? I haven't seen anything in the last few posts, so it clearly doesn't happen ever."

[MoanaLisa]

Just because WoW has been in decline since LFR doesn't mean LFR didn't have a net positive effect on subscriber retention or peak values.

The serious decline in the game that began during Cataclysm started well before LFR. Just being clear about that. To sell the "LFR has caused the decline" argument one has to imagine huge crowds of pissed-off raider elites that left the game simply because LFR existed. That didn't happen. Even more fantastic, we have to imagine some group of millions of raiders over the years of Mists, Warlords, Legion and BFA who started raiding only to quit because of LFR.

We know something about that from achievements in past expansions and they've been reported here now and then over the years. There never that many raiders of any kind to cause dropoffs in the several millions. Organized raid participation has stayed around the same levels for years and years now. There are many problems with the game but LFR isn't even a really big one.

[frott]

It's honestly amazing how LFR defenders have such a large victim complex. Every post seems to reek with defensiveness like they're being personally attacked.

You just said they are "reeking of defensiveness" in the same sentence that you're insinuating that they're not "being personally attacked."

I mean, really? Read that again, slower this time.



Also, the more interesting phenomenon is how people like to bash LFR as some sort of "I'm better than LFR" ego stroke, but then claim that those who think it's a fine system are the wounded birds when called out.

The reality is there is nobody who actually cares about LFR who enjoys LFR.

Who does exist are those who blame it for the death of the game, for the problems in the world, et al. and their own shortcomings. Like "without LFR the game would be a thriving community full of like-minded individuals who all value the same thing: dungeon grind."

In fact, that player is the wounded bird. They are threatened by people happy with LFR because those who don't care... get this... they don't care. They don't value your "pride and accomplishment" by raiding past LFR. The countless progression hours.

It's a silly game to them, where the silly prize is you get to show your virtual items off to the dwindling numbers who actually care about that anymore.

And so you have this wounded bird squawking noisily and inventing hostile enemies who "have a victim complex" and "reek of defensiveness" yet also hold your hands up claiming you're the actual victim... because people who like LFR couldn't care less about what you have declared is "the real game" or whatever.


WoW lost it's socialization as progression, and wow classic tries to reinvent the game with enough embellishments to diminish how true that actually was. LFR is just the nail in that coffin. they can't go back to classic patterns: the keying of an entire raid for TBC/vanilla. the resist/gear requirements when you have lots of people of different dedication amounts.

Sure it's easy when everyone is 100% nolifing all the requirements. But remember "bring the player, not the class?" That also included bringing friends and people who didn't farm grave moss for 10 hours just to get 1 or 2 hours of progression on a boss and 0 loot for it, and compensating for them.

This continued into WOTLK but they had modular difficulties and a gimme raid that was the first (and only) cut and paste raid to ease people into raiding. And it isn't a surprise that it was followed by ulduar which many consider the best raid in the game. There was enough time for everyone to be more or less on the same page.

But now? Yikes, I actually tried to put together a guild for even normal/heroic raiding and herding cats was an understatement. Now I could blame LFR for that easily, but really, if that's what my friends could bother doing who's fault is that? Are you saying it would be better if there was no LFR and they just didn't play at all?



Just come to terms with the idea that LFR is a symptom of a dying social game, in an attempt to siphon subs. The wing release staggered strategy is 100% for subs. The faceroll difficulty: subs. Everything about it is to squeeze a few more dollars out of a game that's more and more a relic. Where the field used to be a crowded market of many sub based games, there are what, maybe half-dozen any more (and that's counting the goofy "just give us money every so often as a donation but really its basically a subscription" models)?

So you should be on your knees grovelling at the feet of LFR, without it the sub money goes away and WoW's already dubious content gets that much thinner (until WoW for console/phone etc)

- - - Updated - - -

The serious decline in the game that began during Cataclysm started well before LFR. Just being clear about that. To sell the LFR has caused the decline argument one has to imagine huge crowds of pissed-off raider elites that left the game simply because LFR existed. That didn't happen. There never that many raiders of any kind to cause dropoffs in the several millions.

100% this, it's very clear looking at any sub chart. I remember it well because I disliked cataclysm very, very much but came back and levelled up a fresh character and was in full LFR+ gear in less than a week.

Unfortunately I think that raid was very, very disorienting as the first LFR raid and diminished interesting fights into "perpetual drinking bird" levels, so it left a very bad taste for some.

[MoanaLisa]

Unfortunately I think that raid was very, very disorienting as the first LFR raid and diminished interesting fights into "perpetual drinking bird" levels, so it left a very bad taste for some.

Yeah, it was a terrible raid on every level and a harbinger of what was to come if they didn't increase the ROI on raid participation. Developers were very clear about that. In terms of single Blizzard misfires it's one of the biggest ever. Dragon Soul may have done more to sour people on raiding than any other single thing.

It's deployment was supposed to happen in Mists but Cataclysm had been such a catastrophe that they threw it in before it was fully developed and finished. A lot of people now don't remember all that was wrong with it that first month. It was a patched together mess laid onto a terrible raid.

[Big Thanks]

The reality is there is nobody who actually cares about LFR who enjoys LFR.

LFR is a failure as a system, because IMO it was made as a panic move to keep casuals subscribed.
Did it acomplish that? Nope

LFR doesnt stop anyone from unsubscribing.

Like i said a lot of times:
"LFR was a consequence of Blizzard having ZERO idea in what content casuals might like and stay subbed for"

Blizzard thought, "hey we need to hold the casuals" > creates LFR > mission failed

That is my opinion

[Directionalk9]

Skimming this thread, people that are anti-LFR, are upset that other players don’t play the game in the same way.

[Azerate]

LFR is a failure as a system, because IMO it was made as a panic move to keep casuals subscribed.
Did it acomplish that? Nope

LFR doesnt stop anyone from unsubscribing.

Like i said a lot of times:
"LFR was a consequence of Blizzard having ZERO idea in what content casuals might like and stay subbed for"

Blizzard thought, "hey we need to hold the casuals" > creates LFR > mission failed

That is my opinion

I personally know a couple people who subscribe for like a month every patch, to check out new content, do LFR and unsub once that's done. So no, it's not mission failed. There's plenty of people in the game who don't pay too much attention to gearing and being pro, and still want to see the fights.

Looking at this thread, most people who attack LFR seem to have a problem with understanding that correlation doesn't imply causation. The subs have been dropping since Wrath, but this does not mean that any specific update has caused this to happen, or any of them for that matter. It's more likely gamers as a whole have moved to other types of games (first moba, then battle royale, and maybe something else in between).

[Big Thanks]

I personally know a couple people who subscribe for like a month every patch, to check out new content, do LFR and unsub once that's done. So no, it's not mission failed. There's plenty of people in the game who don't pay too much attention to gearing and being pro, and still want to see the fights.

Ofcourse there are people who sub to check a new patch (if they bought BfA already).
And they do LFR once to see the scenary and call it a day? i dont know...

My question was if LFR is a good system to keep players subscribed.
How can LFR keep casuals subscribed if:
-Its one of the worst places ingame to get gear
-You do it in one day of the week and call it a day for the rest of the week
-You complete it in one gaming session (impossible to fail)

The only saving grace of LFR is transmog farm, for people who are into that.

Blizzard is struggling in finding a way to keep people subbed. Mainly casuals because they are the majority, as always AND my point is that LFR is/was never the answer.

[MoanaLisa]

My question was if LFR is a good system to keep players subscribed.

That's an unwarranted assumption. You said "IMO" and now are going on as if it's some established fact.

Personally I disagree with you entirely. Whatever Blizzard tells its players it's clear that they like making raids. It's clear that raid content at all levels is what distinguishes WoW from other MMO's. They needed to keep raiding content viable with respect to investment against return. That's why there's an LFR. They have even as much as said so a few times. Their point of success for LFR is that 60%-75% of players see the raid at least once. That's up from around 20%-30%. LFR has done exactly what it was supposed to do.

You can continue to strawman the idea that it was all about keeping players subscribed but even a cursory examination shows that to be untrue. Requirements to get in are minimal and the design is for success. It's the ultimate in disposable end game for casual players and the developers are quite aware of this.

[potis]

I personally know a couple people who subscribe for like a month every patch, to check out new content, do LFR and unsub once that's done. So no, it's not mission failed. There's plenty of people in the game who don't pay too much attention to gearing and being pro, and still want to see the fights.

Looking at this thread, most people who attack LFR seem to have a problem with understanding that correlation doesn't imply causation. The subs have been dropping since Wrath, but this does not mean that any specific update has caused this to happen, or any of them for that matter. It's more likely gamers as a whole have moved to other types of games (first moba, then battle royale, and maybe something else in between).

Dear god, a sensible person on mmo-champion, think you are the 3rd this year.

[Big Thanks]

That's an unwarranted assumption. You said "IMO" and now are going on as if it's some established fact.

Personally I disagree with you entirely. Whatever Blizzard tells its players it's clear that they like making raids. It's clear that raid content at all levels is what distinguishes WoW from other MMO's. They needed to keep raiding content viable with respect to investment against return. That's why there's an LFR. They have even as much as said so a few times. Their point of success for LFR is that 60%-75% of players see the raid at least once. That's up from around 20%-30%. LFR has done exactly what it was supposed to do.

You can continue to strawman the idea that it was all about keeping players subscribed but even a cursory examination shows that to be untrue. Requirements to get in are minimal and the design is for success. It's the ultimate in disposable end game for casual players and the developers are quite aware of this.

LFR is a success because its the "ultimate disposable endgame for casuals"?
Thats setting the bar really low for what was the Blizzard's expectation out of LFR. I dont believe it, thats why i said "imo"

The problem is that many people in this thread refuse to accept having LFR in the game actually has downsides. They believe there is zero downsides. zero....
Im glad i have one of the creators of LFR in my back, sharing the same opinion that it has downsides. Otherwise i would be ripped a new one by everyone else.

In my book, "seeing LFR once and never stepping inside there again" is not a success...specially when there is downsides to it...that everyone refuses to admit there is downsides.

[Popastique]

I would go out on a limb and say the only mmo gaming out is classic.
Retail isn't an mmo, the things literally a casino for users to spend time on.

If you don't do any challenging content and want some gear, then yes - you will be waiting for casino procs from casual activities. If you do some challenging content though - you will get upgrades a lot and often, without needing almost any luck.

[Revamp Man]

Having to enter a raid requires a high level of commitment that many people can't/don't want/don't care to adhere to it. You don't feel like playing WoW tonight? Too bad, you gotta raid. You'd like to spent time with your work partners having some drinks and snacks in a pub? Go home now to raid! After nearly an hour of wiping in the same boss you feel tired and burnt out and would want to call it a day? Nah-ah , there's still 70 minutes of raiding and you are gonna stay until the very end!

Guess what would those people do if there were no LFR? Quit the game because they are bored, since there's no endgame at all. At least with LFR they can see the storie's conclusion.

maybe all of this was true a decade ago but right now with flex rating you aren't really required to go to a raid yeah if you join a guild and you are scheduled a head of time to be at that raid it's kind of a dick move to tell them that you just don't want to show up because at that point is other people's time but they can just say okay and grab someone else heck you don't even need to join a guild nowadays

And to do a full clear of LFR requires more of a time commitment then doing of normal run does

just for an example my guild who is currently progressing on heroic and also pugs a lot because we have players who travel the world and other players who have medical issues we got 2 final boss after about 2 and 1/2 hours in normal

simply the wait time to get into LFR is probably that long also with voice communication there's a lot of banter going on and you can make friends and not be little f****** Jimmy off in the corner doing his own s*** not understanding what's going on

the argument that you don't have time to raid and that you don't want to treat a game like a job isn't f****** relevant anymore and people really need to get new ammo

[bufferunderrun]

LFR is a success because its the "ultimate disposable endgame for casuals"?
Thats setting the bar really low for what was the Blizzard's expectation out of LFR. I dont believe it, thats why i said "imo"

The problem is that many people in this thread refuse to accept having LFR in the game actually has downsides. They believe there is zero downsides. zero....
Im glad i have one of the creators of LFR in my back, sharing the same opinion that it has downsides. Otherwise i would be ripped a new one by everyone else.

In my book, "seeing LFR once and never stepping inside there again" is not a success...specially when there is downsides to it...that everyone refuses to admit there is downsides.

lfr took the role of what once was 10man normal raiding, in bc we had kara and zul aman, in wrath we had 10man and then blizzard automated it by making lfr. What lfr really did is to remove the requirement to have a guild or to waste some time looking for a pug to do low end raiding; now we can debate if that is a downside or a perk for me is the second.

[TheRevenantHero]

I didn't say it was a negative impact 100%. You should relax. Twice now you've assumed something about the way I feel towards the game, and it's making you look a bit defensive.

Don't pretend LFR hasn't taken people away from this game also, if you're trying to be a voice of reason. WoW used to be a game that encouraged players to get better, to perform better to overcome greater challenges. Not everyone agrees with this design intent, but regardless, a lot of people do. Some people see a curve in the game's difficulty that started around the time LFR was introduced. The game has become easier, and to some, this is not a good thing. You can say what you want, but the game was at its peak of popularity before all the LFR and participation trophy content started appearing. It has been in steady decline ever since. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I don't intend to sway your mind. That's like trying to convince a cat person that dogs are better. You want more accessibility, I want people to become better so I don't have to group with terrible players. You want a quick 30 min raid option, I don't think that's indicative of a real raid experience. You think it's a solution, I think it's a participation trophy. I could do this all day long.

We are divided, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Saying that LFR has made raiding flourish is a bit too tongue-in-cheek for me, but believe whatever you want. LFR, to me, started a precedent where the game and its designers felt the game, specifically raiding, needed to appeal to everyone, and I ultimately disagree. The game and raiding don't require ultimate accessibility to succeed, and the game population has been in steady decline since this design intent was embraced.

When you try to please everyone, you'll please no one. And I see the Retail game suffering through that right now. The induction of "easier" features has caused the game to decline, despite your assertion that raiding is flourishing.

If people have left as a result of LFR then I'm glad they've left because they're obviously entitled children.