Expansion/Iteration with the worst Lore

[Super Dickmann]

The thing with TBC is that not only were elements of it just godawful (Kael, Illidan, the draenei retcon, Vashj), not only did they inflict long-term damage on the playable factions (The blood elves being added and then rewritten by the end, the aforementioned draenei retcon), but it was also extremely poorly told. Things like the arakkoa or the Mag'har only actually became interesting in future expansions and it was the first time the game went full tilt into science fiction and killed off huge figures, consigning the story to its direction of constant escalation that it only escaped for a little while in Mists. Couple that with it being atrociously told, with major character turns and motivations explained in novels you had to pay for ten years later and you have the worst lore in an expansion. For the competitors:

WoD had no consequences whatsoever except for the two people that cared about Maraad and fleshed out the orcs beyond being the identical noblesavage stereotypes without clan differentiation that the WC3 retcon ages back had produced. The main story was total shit on a crusty roll, but nothing really came of it except Gul'dan and if you don't like it you can basically pretend it didn't happen. Mists is the best told of all expansions, damning by faint praise though that may be, and has some great world building, but had godawful consequences. BFA is marginally better told than TBC if only because the tie-in materials aren't released ten years after the fact, but while its consequences will be far, far worse for the playable races, irreparably so, it at least has some elements that stand on their own like the Zandalari and Kul Tiras. I dare you to remember what happened in a single zone of TBC, and going on about how naga are stealing water to do something (???) doesn't count.

[Super Dickmann]

Hey, I remember the story in every single zone! Which one do you want me to talk about? Can it be Nagrand and thus CORKI???

Go for it. I've been disappointed by the lack of TBC defense since I was looking forward to having that argument.

Corki is a good boy though, I'll give you that.

[cuafpr]

legion.. while the overall story was ok.. the retcon of the islands to being large enough for entire civilizations, and each zone feeling so broken and individualized killed it for me. Not to mention what they did to Argus and the advancement of technology that seems to have been forgotten about...

[Super Dickmann]

(Btw I voted TBC as well, just saying, it has some excellent stories. Lantressor, The Cipher of Damnation, Altruis, The Ethereum vs the Protectorate, Black Temple attunement)

There are, but it suffers for me because it's in the interlude of Vanilla's more personal side stories, which I find myself really enjoying again in Classic, albeit knowing that a lot are just filler, and the grander narratives they did later, which while they have a lot of misses do generally deliver solid zone stories. TBC faffs around too much.

Take the Garrosh being sad and meeting Thrall story. Conceptually, it's very good and I love where it goes and some of the implications when it comes from the Mag'har. However, Jorin just isn't much of a character since he doesn't get to do much but dispense quests and the same beat of fighting ogres/broken/incensed wildlife, reporting to Garrosh and Garrosh telling you he still wants to open a shotgun-tasting business is repeated.

I will say I still like Lantresor and the Cipher though. Altruis is fine, but I dislike it in the sense that it's a vector of how much they fucked up Illidan in TBC by turning him so generic.

[Super Dickmann]

The Cipher of Damnation is for me the best effort to create pathos for the orc race in WoW, much better than anything WoD produced (or anything involving Thrall). It shows that singular moment in their history that cost them everything.

Nah, no argument there, that questline is great. What makes it work is that the person was actually directly involved and how Oronok views it going back and what he does to 'repent'. WoD has no pathos to speak of. It's inverse pathos because it basically kicks the idea that they were ever peaceful out entirely. Thrall meanwhile just doesn't work because he never experienced it and much as I love Grom, he's also a larger than life figure doing a larger than life thing.

[cuafpr]

What entire civilizations? Highmountain hosts an underground race and four tribes of tauren. Suramar is a single city. Val'sharah is a few hermit druids hidden in the woods. Stromheim is 4-5 vrykul clans.

those would be the ones... Suramar sorta makes sense since they shielded the city for so long, the others not so much. also over looks the islands size prior to legion expac......

[Andonais]

I put WoD but it was mainly because of squandered potential it COULD have be so good.

[ophion1990]

It has to be WoD? Time-travelling space-orcs from another dimension was pretty absurd. Add in Draenei genocide getting retold to show just how gullible and dumb orcs truly are. The Alliance just won the faction war, yet Vol'jin is already making way to starting new skirmishes because he thinks the Alliance wants to wipe out the Horde, completely ignoring the fact that they could have just permanently occupied Orgrimmar mere months ago. Can't forget about a part of the story being cut out aswell. Then there's the ending where Grom is apparently just forgiven. All of the other "warlords" were complete chumps, maybe with Blackhand being the odd man out. Duplicate characters get introduced but have to be killed in droves, Durotan, Drakka, Grom, Maraad, Velen, Garona, Drek'thar, ... All thrown into the meat grinder or never mentioned again. I know these aren't technically all WoD but we start the fight against the Legion and apparently none of the bronze dragons think to mention that maybe we could recruit the Draenei or the Mag'har to help out? I don't think the Mag'har recruitment scenario needs mentioning.

Like, even years after coming out, WoD is a shit gift that just keeps on giving us more shit. I agree that TBC and BfA aren't great either but WoD still takes the cake, imo. Granted that it remains to be seen what kinda impact BfA's storytelling will have on warcraft as a whole, granted that the main gripe people seem to have with BfA is the faction war, less so the old god/death stuff.

[mickybrighteyes]

there is nothing wrong about race>everything

I can't take this as any sort of serious response...

[Nerovar]

I mean, pretty much every expansion had bad lore. TBC was a shitshow but so were WoD, BfA and Legion.

[TheFirstOnes]

@Aucald

I guess the entirety of BFA came from the will of Azeroth as well? I doubt she's so powerful, she can do all this shit based on her "will".

[Aucald]

@Aucald

I guess the entirety of BFA came from the will of Azeroth as well? I doubt she's so powerful, she can do all this shit based on her "will".

I would doubt the Horde and Alliance fighting one another while she is dying due to Sargeras' mortal attack would represent Azeroth's will, no. BfA is pretty much the opposite of that.

[TheFirstOnes]

I would doubt the Horde and Alliance fighting one another while she is dying due to Sargeras' mortal attack would represent Azeroth's will, no. BfA is pretty much the opposite of that.

Exactly, and I highly doubt the Lich King conflict, the Cataclysm, and Sargeras' Imprisonment were based on Azeroth's will. If anything, it was our will that stopped the threats. We are Azeroth's children and champions, yes. But other than BFA with the Heart of Azeroth and all, barely anything in WoW was based on "Azeroth's will". It was just based on ours, as well as the need to survive.

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So what? Was Illidan being the badass he was in Legion based on Azeroth's will? I just thought it was him fulfilling his "golden eyed" destiny by having him perform the greatest sacrifice in creation as Sargeras' Jailer.

[Akka]

Don't see how it's possible to even come close to WoD and it's AU bullshit.
TBC had a pretty wrecked lore, but it was more about sci-fi clash with the medieval settings and the ruining of several characters just to have them as boss to fight. WoD entire concept was retarded.

[TheFirstOnes]

I mean, pretty much every expansion had bad lore. TBC was a shitshow but so were WoD, BfA and Legion.

How was Legion a shit show?

[Aucald]

Exactly, and I highly doubt the Lich King conflict, the Cataclysm, and Sargeras' Imprisonment were based on Azeroth's will. If anything, it was our will that stopped the threats. We are Azeroth's children and champions, yes. But other than BFA with the Heart of Azeroth and all, barely anything in WoW was based on "Azeroth's will". It was just based on ours, as well as the need to survive.

I was referring to the events of Legion specifically, not the entirety of WoW. Although I do think there's something to the fact that Azeroth and its denizens are "special" in a way most world's aren't - empowered by the latent energies of the World-Soul, perhaps, able to do things that other world's never found possible (such as fending off the Burning Legion every time it has attempted to claw its way onto the world).

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So what? Was Illidan being the badass he was in Legion based on Azeroth's will? I just thought it was him fulfilling his "golden eyed" destiny by having him perform the greatest sacrifice in creation as Sargeras' Jailer.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Xe'ra seemed to think *something* ordained Illidan for greatness, perhaps it was Azeroth herself in some way. Either way, I doubt the path Illidan actually chose to pursue was something either Azeroth or Xe'ra would've ever imagined, though.

[Nerovar]

How was Legion a shit show?

If I really need to point that out then there's nothing I could say to convince you.
A few hints are: Demon space ships, the entirety of the Argus story line, class order hall campaigns, Illidan, Dalaran...

[Trumpcat]

TBC was a lore mess and nobody even knew what the grand story arc meant to be. It was weakly written and weakly executed.

WoD is a strong contender, but if we exclude the "alternative universe" bullshit the story was nicely done. Whereas there isn't such one thing for TBC we can exclude.

BfA has the best execution, but weak points include major plot holes where the story just "forgets" parts of the lore rather than deal with them. Such as the Alliance super weapon space ship hanging above Azeroth.

[Aucald]

I would argue that TBC and WoD have very different sets of flaws - TBC had a bungled and flawed design or set-up, whereas WoD had a more solid design but mangled execution. Which of the two is worse is largely a subjective question or determination. TBC's plot was bungled to the point that it needed to be retroactively addressed at several points so that it could properly align itself with the ongoing story-arc of WoW. WoD's bottle story nature kind of insulated it from that, but the explanation supplied for the alternate universe and time travel shenanigans were so convoluted and broken that they ripped giant holes in the continuity in the form of paradoxes that later had to be retconned in "Chronicle Vol. 3" so the story could work as told.

[TheFirstOnes]

If I really need to point that out then there's nothing I could say to convince you.
A few hints are: Demon space ships, the entirety of the Argus story line, class order hall campaigns, Illidan, Dalaran...

Space Ships are TBC, not Legion. Argus was fine, though it did have its problems. Order Hall campaigns were great. Illidan was fine, despite his 1 liners. And Dalaran was Dalaran. What's your issue with it?

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I was referring to the events of Legion specifically, not the entirety of WoW. Although I do think there's something to the fact that Azeroth and its denizens are "special" in a way most world's aren't - empowered by the latent energies of the World-Soul, perhaps, able to do things that other world's never found possible (such as fending off the Burning Legion every time it has attempted to claw its way onto the world).

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Perhaps, perhaps not. Xe'ra seemed to think *something* ordained Illidan for greatness, perhaps it was Azeroth herself in some way. Either way, I doubt the path Illidan actually chose to pursue was something either Azeroth or Xe'ra would've ever imagined, though.

That just feels extremely weird, though. However, it would explain some.