Blizzard was right, retail is better.

[Kolvarg]

Why won't classic dungeons be perceived as a chore after the initial honeymoon phase, leading to a similar "just get it over with" attitude?

How is Classic different in discriminating people based on ilvl, xp and fotm-specs? What's stopping people in Classic to recruit/invite based on these attributes?

How does it encourage its players to help each other rather than just kick/replace outside of trivial dungeon content? How is that different from M+ dungeons that,
once started, lock you into a specific group?

They might eventually, but even then the pacing makes it different. Compared to something like the a Mythic+, where there's not only pressure to get it over with because you are just looking for the carrot at the end of the stick, there's even reward for doing stuff as quickly as possible. Classic promotes a slower gameplay and playing "safe" more than it does "getting things over with", because it's worth it to deal with packs of mobs slowly, it's worth it to wait for the healer to drink, rather than risk having to wait for people corpse running.

Will this change as people get better gear and used to run the same dungeons over and over again? Probably, yes. But in Classic there is an end goal. There is BiS gear for your character, and eventually you will get there. You won't be running a weekly gear slotmachine hoping to get an upgrade that actually only has a tiny small chance of happening for 2 years, with every patch making the previous gear completely obsolete by introducing slightly better versions of the same gear. Also, you can only inspect people after you are phisically close to them, and even then you can only see their gear. There's no achievements, no armory or API. It's very possible there will even be addons like gearscore or similar, but even then (having played years ago on a WotLK server where gearscore was popular) it was fairly more forgiving.

Classic encourages player to help each other because of how mistakes are punished (corpse runs and such) and what a pain it is to replace people. Not only is it harder to find a replacement, it takes time - usually more time than just trying to help. When it's easier and faster to kick and find a replacement, people will just do that, even in Mythic+.

Yes, the M+ plus system of getting "locked" once started is kind of similar to Classic, but feels jarring compared to the rest of the game. That's one of the reasons, I would assume, why the community gravitated towards continuing pugging using the armory and raider.io instead of generally trying to find stable groups of people they can run with. It's also why many people are more prone to abandoning what they deem to be a "failed run", or to kick someone who they deem to have "doomed" the run, and just go level up a different key, instead of actually trying to help that player, or try to make the best of it, simply because it will take less time.

It's also very hard to justify investing time in helping someone whom you will never see again. In Classic with pugs being from your realm, there's a high likelyhood that you will find people who you helped down the line.

How does Classic promote actual interaction - meaning more than just "hi, inv", "need quest x" etc.

Social interaction isn't just about having conversations. Is about the whole process of playing with that person. Yes, many people will still be silent even in Classic, there's still diferent personalities at play and some people are simply shy even in Classic. With that said, the single fact that you actually have to whisper "hi, inv", or ask what quest the others are on, starts that engagement. For many people that is a necessary "kick" to get over that barrier of actually typing and start communicating with the people who you are with.

That's only helped by the fact that you are all in the same realm and players are not easily replaced, it makes it much easier to treat the other players as other players, instead of disposable means to achieve your "singleplayer-like" goals.

I won't pretend this is exactly why, or that I know exactly why, but I certainly have experienced it. There's no guarantee at all that you will have amazing interaction with every person you group with, for sure, but there's certainly a much higher incidence per time played in Classic than in Live, from my experience and seemingly from others' as well.

Doesn't the "toxic" nature of random M+ runs promote social interaction via pre made groups and guilds?

Not really, just like the lack of that "toxic" nature does not promote the non-existance of social interaction in pre made groups and guilds. The majority of players who prefer to play in guild are already doing so. The players who like to play in pre-made groups either already have one, or will find a hard time finding people to join.

[avx81]

No, because Mythic+ is spammable and doesn't really require coordination - Just knowledge of what's happening, which they give you before stepping into the dungeon via the mythic tab of the dungeon finder.

They aren't 'random.' You have an entire week to see what's coming, it's a set rotation of abilities, and you know what all the abilities you'll be dealing with each week are. 'Random' implies nobody knows what's coming.

M+ can also be formed via the Premade Group Finder, and since it requires no coordination, does not promote the forming of premade groups or guilds as you can just join a rando group at any time and never need a guild for it. Which is why the LFG addons are being removed from Classic, because yes, that does affect the way the community forms.

What are you doing +2 keys or something? Because I can guarantee to you there is a lot of coordination involved once you start hitting high key levels. As in setting up interrupt rotations, stun rotations, planning your cd's with the tank for big pulls, etc. That first sentence is a blatant lie. Go ahead in on fortified weeks and have everyone in the group overlap their interrupt especially in a place like shrine. I bet that ends well.

Also as far as groups requiring no coordination to form? Ha. Ok you open up the premade group finder and just click accept on random names once you start hitting +15 keys. Let me know how that ends up going for you. Trash in M+ is more difficult and has more mechanics than all of MC combined especially once you factor in affixes unless its volcanic. Whats the mechanics in MC and BWL? Sometimes move. Press 1 or 2 button rotation. Maybe sometimes move again otherwise stand still. Also I have been added to dozens of friends lists just by meeting and playing with other players via the lfg system.

[Ardourdan]

About to see a mass exodus as people reach 20-30 and realize that classic was shit. I played classic back when it was actually.. classic. We did not have layering and people exploiting the heck out of it. Killed MC, AQ20/40, BWL and most of Naxx when it was actually relevant. The people who are left are those in denial or the Cata babies who want to "explore" the world. Classic is worst than WoD. If you say otherwise idk what to tell you. Classic is actual garbage..

This is nothing but opinion. I played from Vanilla to BfA. After playing Classic again I have not logged on to retail once. 90% of my Battle net list is still playing Classic over Retail. I fear I will never be satisfied by retail after levelling again on Classic. It is a far, far superior MMORPG experience 1-60 than 1-120. For end-game it will be a different matter UNLESS they release new content, as is already being rumoured (if numbers persist).

[Kolvarg]

What are you doing +2 keys or something? Because I can guarantee to you there is a lot of coordination involved once you start hitting high key levels.

The question is, how high of a percentage of the playerbase is actually doing high key levels?

It's the same as saying the game incentivizes teamplay because Mythic raids require coordination. When very likely less than 10% of the playerbase actually raids mythic (that was the stats during late MoP at least).

[CrawlFromThePit]

No, you saw it through a specific PoV that ignore anything that doesn't agree with it and then claim it's objective.

I can very easily gives you an alternative PoV about respawn timer : the dearth of mob can push people to group up or push people to explore to see if they can't find mob elsewhere.
It can make the game more social, and can make the world a more interactive and explorable place (that's actually what I did, when the gnolls camps around Hogger were overcrowded, I went to Cairn Stone Lake, which hold the same gnolls, to complete the quest, because nobody goes there).

Notice I might agree with what you say about respawn timer. What irks me is this way of claiming that it's not an opinion when it actually is. Even if I share the same opinion, I'm very annoyed at people who mixes up concepts.
Yes, people at Blizzard often said they used bad design in hindsight. Fun fact : most of the time, the "corrected" design they implemented later was in fact worse. To me, they just changed their PoV on a design aspect, went from "this is a good idea because X" to "well actually I didn't realize that it was a bad idea because Y" and then "hu, well, in fact X was true and Y wasn't that great after all" (best example for me : threat, that went from "cornerstone of a raid fight" to "irrelevant" and then GC admitted that he preferred when threat was important, but then it was too late to implement it back).

It's like listing the good things about war. It's not all bad, people can find something positive to say about it. Doesn't make it a good thing in the end. Different POV on a subject don't change its neutral state in reality, they're just perspective.

I'm not ignoring anything that doesn't agree with the facts I stated. I adressed these points and proved them wrong. The word you're looking for is "discredit", not "ignore".

I explained even on a mathematical level why long respawn timers for specific quest mobs are bad. You turn this into a "several mobs at several spots" kind of situation. Why? You know it's entirely unrelated to the subject. We're talking about mobs that offer no form of workaround, effectively FORCING players to WASTE time. There is nothing in this that says good design in any way shape or form, it's critical thinking and logic. Of course there's no scientific paper out there to "show as evidence". You could actually pick up a book about game design and if it didn't get me fired I would release research documents about the habits of players and their tendencies in gameplay experience and response to signs and feedbacks.

If someone tells you an apple is a fruit, you won't question him. There's no reason to question what I'm telling you, other than having a different opinion which is not supported by the facts and refusing to learn or change your views.

I have no use in changing my views on this, I had a different view before, I learned the facts and now I'm just spreading the message. None of what I said is an opinion, even if you say it is.

- - - Updated - - -

Er, it is still your opinion that ot is bad. Rrsearch provides data but that data is based on subjectivity as well since all gameplay is subjectively looked at.

Some people think WC3 pathfinding is slow and clunky, but that is not an objectively bad design because it hss become a part of how the game is accepted and played. It is what allows micro, bodyblocking and good positioning to stay relevant without deferring to how things work in more modern RTS where you can't block or trap units as easily, and need more units to perform surrounds.

Just because something is researched doesn't make it objective.

Pathfinding and unit collision boxes and body blocking are all different aspects of the game, I don't know why you put them all together as if they were one. The collision boxes allowing body blocking and actually acting as a balancing tool in the creation of your army is a very well thought out design idea that creates a form of realism in the form of decision making for the player, it adds value to diverse army by taking units with different range of attacks, melees, flying units, etc.

Pathfinding is the path a unit takes from where it is to where you click based on an AI network and how it reacts to objects in their way. Sometimes unit did get stuck in stupid shit for no valid reason other than the pathfinding was clunky. What makes it factually clunky? It's not smooth, forces weird movemetns or even units getting stuck where they shouldn't get stuck. That's evidence of the fact that pathfinding was clunky. Not the worse tho, there's way worse out there, but it was still rather clunky, as evidenced by example unrelated to the concept collisions and body blocking.

[kamuimac]

Same on Herod even before the transfers. Queue is going way down. Few friends are in denial. "It must be people going back to work". Sure. I think server transfers were a mistake. About to see a mass exodus as people reach 20-30 and realize that classic was shit. I played classic back when it was actually.. classic. We did not have layering and people exploiting the heck out of it. Killed MC, AQ20/40, BWL and most of Naxx when it was actually relevant. The people who are left are those in denial or the Cata babies who want to "explore" the world. Classic is worst than WoD. If you say otherwise idk what to tell you. Classic is actual garbage.

Mob spawn rates take literally forever. Sitting there for 15+ minutes waiting for a quest mob to respawn then some dipshit rogue comes along and tags it without inviting anyone. Rotations were garbage and non existent (mages banging their head on space bar spamming frostbolt while being 2nd on dps). Raids were a joke with less mechanics than world quest mobs. You could clear MC with half your raid AFK or back peddling. A guild already killed Ony and Rag without everyone in the group even being 60 and in greens. Wait until Naxx is released and cleared in a day also.

People act like retail is a grind. Raiders in my guild who only login 1x-2x a week already have their neck levels around 62 and are in the 430's. It's only a grind if you make it a grind. Meanwhile everything in classic from leveling to raid prep is a grind.

you already see it in EU

at 18:15 :

6 full

10 high

4 medium

1 low

i bet next week it will be

2 full 5 high 14 medium/low

in a month people will start asking for server merges.

[Triceron]

Pathfinding and unit collision boxes and body blocking are all different aspects of the game, I don't know why you put them all together as if they were one. The collision boxes allowing body blocking and actually acting as a balancing tool in the creation of your army is a very well thought out design idea that creates a form of realism in the form of decision making for the player, it adds value to diverse army by taking units with different range of attacks, melees, flying units, etc.

Pathfinding is the path a unit takes from where it is to where you click based on an AI network and how it reacts to objects in their way. Sometimes unit did get stuck in stupid shit for no valid reason other than the pathfinding was clunky. What makes it factually clunky? It's not smooth, forces weird movemetns or even units getting stuck where they shouldn't get stuck. That's evidence of the fact that pathfinding was clunky. Not the worse tho, there's way worse out there, but it was still rather clunky, as evidenced by example unrelated to the concept collisions and body blocking.

And that's basically my point with 'features' like longer spawn times and not having shared kills and whatever inconveniences existed back then. They were intentional design for that time. They are intentional design now. They are only considered bad because they are an inconvenience, but there is still merit to having those systems work the way they do because as a whole they add value to the overall design. This comes in the form of competition and social interaction.

Without competition in the open world, you don't get a lot of memorable moments like we do now with people lining up to complete quests or other socially-generated events like this. It just never happens in retail WoW naturally, because the game has been designed to provide available resources to every player equally, to the point where other players in the world become irrelevant to you. WoW retail is designed like a single-player game that is tuned for everyone to solo. Without the roadblocks of competition and social interaction, you don't feel like there are other players in the world, in Classic you may be constantly running into the same people competing for the same resources.

Longer spawn time has its merits, and that's what makes it different from simply being 'objectively bad because of research'.

So objectively, this is not a bad feature. It's simply how the game works. The only way to discern this feature as bad is if you were looking at it subjectively.

[Alphatorg]

They might eventually, but even then the pacing makes it different. Compared to something like the a Mythic+, where there's not only pressure to get it over with because you are just looking for the carrot at the end of the stick, there's even reward for doing stuff as quickly as possible. Classic promotes a slower gameplay and playing "safe" more than it does "getting things over with", because it's worth it to deal with packs of mobs slowly, it's worth it to wait for the healer to drink, rather than risk having to wait for people corpse running.

Will this change as people get better gear and used to run the same dungeons over and over again? Probably, yes. But in Classic there is an end goal. There is BiS gear for your character, and eventually you will get there. You won't be running a weekly gear slotmachine hoping to get an upgrade that actually only has a tiny small chance of happening for 2 years, with every patch making the previous gear completely obsolete by introducing slightly better versions of the same gear. Also, you can only inspect people after you are phisically close to them, and even then you can only see their gear. There's no achievements, no armory or API. It's very possible there will even be addons like gearscore or similar, but even then (having played years ago on a WotLK server where gearscore was popular) it was fairly more forgiving.

I mean CC is assigned via markers, healers write "mana" in chat when they need to drink, that's not meaningful interaction and people actually do the same in BfA.
And I don't see the big difference in motivation, in Classic as in BfA people do dungeons, because they chase a piece of loot. People will impatient either way.
Armory has actually already been discovered. People won't have raider.io, but they will ask for certain specs and certain ilvls. Even in the original version people used to meet up and inspect people infront of the capital's bank before starting a run. It's just basic human nature.

Classic encourages player to help each other because of how mistakes are punished (corpse runs and such) and what a pain it is to replace people. Not only is it harder to find a replacement, it takes time - usually more time than just trying to help. When it's easier and faster to kick and find a replacement, people will just do that, even in Mythic+.

Yes, the M+ plus system of getting "locked" once started is kind of similar to Classic, but feels jarring compared to the rest of the game. That's one of the reasons, I would assume, why the community gravitated towards continuing pugging using the armory and raider.io instead of generally trying to find stable groups of people they can run with. It's also why many people are more prone to abandoning what they deem to be a "failed run", or to kick someone who they deem to have "doomed" the run, and just go level up a different key, instead of actually trying to help that player, or try to make the best of it, simply because it will take less time.

It's also very hard to justify investing time in helping someone whom you will never see again. In Classic with pugs being from your realm, there's a high likelyhood that you will find people who you helped down the line.

So who says people will actually make an effort with weaker players? Maybe they will be less inclined to kick people, but what's stopping them from just getting the run over with and then putting the player on their imaginary black list. And regardless, all this interaction is based on some teacher pupil relationship.

Social interaction isn't just about having conversations. Is about the whole process of playing with that person. Yes, many people will still be silent even in Classic, there's still diferent personalities at play and some people are simply shy even in Classic. With that said, the single fact that you actually have to whisper "hi, inv", or ask what quest the others are on, starts that engagement. For many people that is a necessary "kick" to get over that barrier of actually typing and start communicating with the people who you are with.

That's only helped by the fact that you are all in the same realm and players are not easily replaced, it makes it much easier to treat the other players as other players, instead of disposable means to achieve your "singleplayer-like" goals.

I won't pretend this is exactly why, or that I know exactly why, but I certainly have experienced it. There's no guarantee at all that you will have amazing interaction with every person you group with, for sure, but there's certainly a much higher incidence per time played in Classic than in Live, from my experience and seemingly from others' as well.

I mean that's basically one huge assumption. What if most of the player base actually don't have social anxiety and aren't talking to random people, because they don't feel the need (perhaps, because their need for conversation is already taken care of by friends/guild/rl)?

Not really, just like the lack of that "toxic" nature does not promote the non-existance of social interaction in pre made groups and guilds. The majority of players who prefer to play in guild are already doing so. The players who like to play in pre-made groups either already have one, or will find a hard time finding people to join.

Well that's kind of my point. In terms of social interaction almost all problems are player made and can be avoided by finding a guild/community of compatible players. Raider.io score exists, because people demand it, random groups exist, because a lot of people are too lazy or uninterested in social interaction to form/look for a pre made group. People are rude and antisocial, because that's their personality, not because BfA made them that way.
Why wouldn't the same problems carry over if you put more or less the same player base into a similar game? Infact there were already tons of scumbags in the original Vanilla, from ninja looters, to scammers, to people who would just port out of a dungeon once the boss they needed was dead.

[Diatribe]

Retail is easier at getting what you want.

That's it.

I'm in Classic because I'm tired of that. I love the sense of accomplishment I get on an upgrade, an attunement, a new key, and whatnot. I spent too long having everything damn near given to me for years.

[CrawlFromThePit]

1) Your view is based on your opinion. Nothing that you've said is a fact.

I made claims and explained them, you make this claim but don't explain it. Prove to me that what I said is inevitably, exclusively an opinion.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Literally everything you've said is nothing but, though.

You've made claims and explained why you think that way. Literally your explanation proves it's your opinion. Not a word you said is objective in nature.

How can't it be a fact then? You know that thinking the earth is flat is an opinion and thinking the earth is round is also an opinion. One of these 2 opinions is ALSO a fact while the other is a WRONG OPINION.

They're not both right, it's not okay to "agree to disagree" and just because they're opinions it doesn't prevent one of them from being a fact.

So if what I said is not a fact it means you have a way to explain how it's not a fact instead of just saying "no no no I do not want what you said to be a fact".

Explain how what I said CANNOT BE A FACT.

[Triceron]

How can't it be a fact then? You know that thinking the earth is flat is an opinion and thinking the earth is round is also an opinion. One of these 2 opinions is ALSO a fact while the other is a WRONG OPINION.

They're not both right, it's not okay to "agree to disagree" and just because they're opinions it doesn't prevent one of them from being a fact.

So if what I said is not a fact it means you have a way to explain how it's not a fact instead of just saying "no no no I do not want what you said to be a fact".

Explain how what I said CANNOT BE A FACT.

Except the world being round is a provable fact. Game design is not provable fact because ultimately it is an artform that is meant to be experienced.

It would be more like trying to prove that tomatoes taste bad, or prove that rollercoasters are fun. You can't prove these because they are all based on the experience that individual users have.

I mean what is an objectively bad design that we can even discuss here? In Chess, I can only move my pawn in one direction, and it attacks in diagonals. I could say that it's bad design because it's not an intuitive or user-friendly system, and it would be better if it can attack forwards instead which would make more sense. That wouldn't be an objective analysis, it would be an opinion-based observation; an anecdote. Despite what I say on the matter, and despite whatever research I can find criticizing the Pawn's movement in chess, ultimately it would be useless because it's not up to me to decide how the game plays. It's up to the creator of Chess, and the rules are set in this way for a particular purpose whether we agree upon it or not. As a user, our goal is to make use of it to our advantage.

And in Vanilla WoW, low spawn rates are absolutely valued in the world. People camp certain areas with high level toons to gank. People might find friends in strangers by grouping together in a low-spawn area to benefit from kill quests. People may choose to grind in areas with higher spawn rates, migrating them away from overpopulated starter zone areas.

There is no 'fact' that low spawn rate is considered a bad design.

It is only bad design if you look at it from the perspective of one particular player type - People who want to get quests done efficiently and effectively without being impacted by any other players in the world. This is an absolutely valid viewpoint, but not the only valid one to consider.

[AeneasBK]

Out of curiosity what are these "quest mobs" that take 15 minutes to respawn? Excepting the Den Mother, every single named mob is spawning while its body is still there having not despawned, sometimes twice over. But hearing a lot of people bleating about "waiting 15 mins for a mob to repop" so is this just a horde thing? Or are they talking shit because waiting 1 min for a mob respawn feels like 15 minutes to their weird perceptions.

Also - way too many people answering to a self-confessed troll, but if you're having fun, more strength to you.

[avx81]

The community was better when there was no mechanics? Making up random garbage again I see. People were back peddling clicking trash in vanilla. Sure people knew eachother. I also know people now that yes I still chat with that I added to my friends list. Some of which from prior guilds that are now on new servers. Guess what I can still play with them. In classic you cant. Lack of communication required in high keys? Now we are just making up more nonsense to support a bs argument. And you need communication to complete raids like MC and Ony?.. Or do dungeons like UBRS/LBRS, etc? Maybe to form the group.

If you want to play a game that involves "CoMmUniTy" then sure classic has a better server based community. But your endgame was back awful clickers and that shows given the first guild downed rag and everyone was not even 60 and in greens. Watch AQ40 and Naxx follow suit. If you want to play something that has mechanics that you cant do with your eyes closed then play retail. And btw I have been playing with the same people now for over 10 years since burning crusade. Raided with the same group of people since SSC/TK. Just because you cant make friends on retail that last does not mean that nobody cant.

It's starting to show though. High pop servers that had hours of wait time last week in the afternoon already have no queue. Sure there will be a queue later but the exodus has already begun. Classic is going to have its 15 minutes of fame until people realize it really was garbage.

[Goldfingaz]

Out of curiosity what are these "quest mobs" that take 15 minutes to respawn? Excepting the Den Mother, every single named mob is spawning while its body is still there having not despawned, sometimes twice over. But hearing a lot of people bleating about "waiting 15 mins for a mob to repop" so is this just a horde thing? Or are they talking shit because waiting 1 min for a mob respawn feels like 15 minutes to their weird perceptions.

Also - way too many people answering to a self-confessed troll, but if you're having fun, more strength to you.

Pretty much all of the single mob quests take 5-15 minutes for respawns, at least in the Barrens. Keeper Ordanus in Ashenvale takes approximately 10-15 minutes to spawn., if you want an actual NPC name.

[Lionhearte0]

It's a shame you can't hide dumbass threads like this since idiots keep bumping this after OP got exposed and embarrassed. Oh well, mods here are British cigs, as usual.

Infracted: Discussion of moderation is against site rules {MoanaLisa}

[Beet]

I still wonder why mods here didn't remove this. Isn't trolling against the rules? This OP is OBVIOUSLY trolling. For fucks sake he made posts shitting on classic before he posted this thread where he claims to have been a hardcore classic fan who wanted it badly.

[Dotality]

Retail is easier at getting what you want.

That's it.

I'm in Classic because I'm tired of that. I love the sense of accomplishment I get on an upgrade, an attunement, a new key, and whatnot. I spent too long having everything damn near given to me for years.

god i wish to check your mythic+/raiding progress

[Thraendil]

Absolutely, completely wrong.

Those are not features that I think are bad. Those are bad features, I see them for what they are and mentioned them in my post. None of it is my opinion. Forcing players to wait in one spot doing nothing is by definition bad game design. Yes making the mob respawn instantly is also bad game design, saying the respawn is too long DOES NOT MEAN that I want it to be instant. There's a mathematically correct timer that makes people happy, both Classic and Retail are not there at all. Rare spawns deserve a longer respawn timer because that's the whole point of being rare. Quest mob not respawning is what we call a walkthrough break in the industry, it forces the player to get annoyed, lose interest or even wonder if he's doing the right thing or being at the right place. It objectively is bad design, it's not an opinion, it is actually studied and researched.

Your argument about long respawn timer being good is because the game is a MMORPG... like seriously that's not a point for anything. MMORPG only means the game is a Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Do you see any words in there talking about the necessity of wasting time doing nothing while waiting for a quest mob to respawn? This is utterly ridiculous and at best intellectually disingenuous. There is NO correlation between RPG or online games or MMORPGs and the amount of time an important mob should take to respawn. Any relative study would tell you that something that is in high demand has to be accessible more often, that means that mathematically speaking a MMORPG should have faster respawn to better reflect the demand crearted by the population of the game.

Your logic is flawed and holds no ground, because that's what an opinion is. What is not an opinion is what I said. Learn the difference between the 2 and before claiming someone's stated facts are actually opinions you better have evidence to back it up instead of blogging your opinion as (failing) argumentative points. Just because you don't agree with facts doesn't mean they're not facts anymore, it only means your opinion is wrong.

BTW I'm not asking for the game to change in any way. I clearly stated that I'm enjoying the game and find my fun in different aspects of it. I'm okay with playing the game the way it was back then. That's my opinion of it. It doesn't change the fact that many things in vanilla were badly designed, and that's completely normal. The designers themselves often talked about all the things they did wrong in there, lots of experimentation and trial and error, lots of rookies working on their first game, big online games like this were kind of a new thing back then, they learn as they go and not everything ends up being perfect. That's alright in the end, no need to call the police or say the game is shit, but also no need to act like everything is perfect, it's clearly not. We can enjoy the game while talking about what is badly designed, there's good and bad everywhere it's just part of life, perfection doesn't exist.

You really have no clue what an MMORPG is, do you? As I said, the ideal RPG doesn’t give you instant gratification and dopamin kicks all the time. Mobs don’t just spawn at your feet! You have to search for them and, yes, sometimes even wait for them. That is called ”immersion”. The whole point is that you need to invest time in doing things, as if the world was real.

Sadly, the developers seem to have forgot what an MMORPG is as well. Despite all research and developmemt, WoW is performing much worse in its current form. They have tried it your way, with free epics, fast paced and sometimes brainless combat, reduced the importance of gear and gold drastically, store mounts, RNG, , LFG and teleportarion everywhere (don’t ever have to leave the main city).

These ”improvments” have Done nothing but turning wow to a less popular game, of another genre. Making it into another game =/= a better game. By your logic, it would make sense to turn American football into soccer, because soccer is more popular world wide, thus it’s objectively better in every way. That would be a silly argument, just like your argument. I’m sure you’re much better than that.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Because, as I've already mentioned and you've completely ignored repeatedly, NONE OF THE WORDS YOU'VE SAID ARE OBJECTIVE. A fact is a fact regardless of who you ask, and MUST be objectively true (aka: hold up to scrutiny when questioned) but everything you've talked about can, and has, been disputed by many and confirmed by... Nothing. So you can't claim it's a fact if you can't confirm it and we CAN deny it.

It's really that simple. "The Earth is flat" is provably false because we have objective ways of determining that the earth is not flat. (Ex.: A picture, going to space itself, flying in a plane, trying to fall off the side...) However, for example:



The bold shows all of the opinions you throw out while claiming objectivity.

You even claim "mathematically incorrect" but provide absolutely no data or statistics to back up your statement. It's literally just your opinion. It's your opinion over and over and over, with no objectivity to it except saying "There have been studies" which you then choose not to provide.



This entire paragraph doesn't state anything regarding data or objective viewpoints, and instead, demands that someone else's viewpoint is wrong because you have your viewpoint, which must be factually correct because... reasons.

It's disingenuous and intellectually dishonest at best.

Does that help?

Forcing players to wait in one spot doing nothing is by definition bad game design. (No, it isn't.)

In what world does forcing players to do nothing and wait is good design? Your very first point is objectively wrong. Why would I even bother going through the rest of your incorrect statements?

Yes making the mob respawn instantly is also bad game design, (Also not)

It's either good design or bad design. If you claim that it's good design, explain how it is good design, otherwise why even bother talking to me?

saying the respawn is too long DOES NOT MEAN that I want it to be instant. (It does mean you want it to be faster.)

Yes, faster than 15 minutes would be a step in the right direction for correcting this bad design.

There's a mathematically correct timer that makes people happy, both Classic and Retail are not there at all. (This is an opinion.)

There's a sweet spot where people have time to explore, see what's around, and complete the quest before feeling like they are wasting their time. It's contextual and case by case iterative work but yes, there is a mathematically correct number that makes the quest feel good instead of bad. Instead of blindly believing it's an opinion for the sake of looking for a fight on the internet, think this over or learn game design or stop talking about things you know nothing about.

Rare spawns deserve a longer respawn timer because that's the whole point of being rare. (Also an opinion.)

If they respawn fast it makes them less rare. Therefore destroying the core concept of rarespawn. This is an objective truth, there is no other way to make a mob rare other than managing their respawn timer. This is, again, a mathematical truth that you will never be able to prove wrong.

Quest mob not respawning is what we call a walkthrough break in the industry, it forces the player to get annoyed, lose interest or even wonder if he's doing the right thing or being at the right place. (Which could also be intended, as this is an MMO where they want the world and exploration to matter.)

Intent does not make something good. Bad intents exists. There is a giant difference between respawn times so long it makes people wonder if they're at the right place or respawn times so fast people don't even feel like they're playing in a living world anymore. Like I said earlier, there is a sweet spot that meets both demands, just have to find it.

It objectively is bad design, (False)

Then tell us how it's good design to force people to do nothing and wait for extended arbritrary periods of time. I explained why it's bad, you tell me why it's good. Otherwise stop making extremely ignorant claims that what I say is false without backing anything up. You just point and say no instead of explaining. If you claim that I'm wrong it means you can explain why.

it is actually studied and researched. (Which is funny, because it in fact IS opinion, and no single person would feel the exact same way as another person about it.)

There's a lot of games out there with different respawn timers for their enemies. Games in which the players DO NOT complain about the timers. Why? Because they reached a good number that makes everyone happy. So it is in fact achievable when done right. When you do it badly you get what we have now: people who see that it's bad, and people who are blinded by one of two things, either (1) their worshiping of the game and being offended by anyone criticizing it, or (2) trying really hard to fight on a forum about a subject they know nothing about but think they do because they played some video games before but obviously never designed shit. If the game had the right respawn timers we wouldn't be talking about it (just like in other games with proper respawn timers) and we would all be playing as if it was never an issue. The simple fact that we talk about it like this means there's something fundamentally wrong.

The other paragraph is simple logic, you're free to believe it's wrong, it puts you behind people who understand it's right. It's not my view point, it's the state of reality and I just happen to mention it. Even if I never said a word about it, that would still be how things are because it has nothing to do with my opinions. If you claim that it's not a fact it means you have factual evidence of the contrary, which you can't provide, not even with logic or critical thinking, but you're welcome to try and dig your own grave.

Other than pointing at things and saying "no" you accomplished nothing with this post. So no, it does not help, it could even be reported as unconstructive because that's what is objectively is. (oh noes, more objectivity calling, alert the authorities)

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You really have no clue what an MMORPG is, do you? As I said, the ideal RPG doesn’t give you instant gratification and dopamin kicks all the time. Mobs don’t just spawn at your feet! You have to search for them and, yes, sometimes even wait for them. That is called ”immersion”. The whole point is that you need to invest time in doing things, as if the world was real.

Sadly, the developers seem to have forgot what an MMORPG is as well. Despite all research and developmemt, WoW is performing much worse in its current form. They have tried it your way, with free epics, fast paced and sometimes brainless combat, reduced the importance of gear and gold drastically, store mounts, RNG, , LFG and teleportarion everywhere (don’t ever have to leave the main city).

These ”improvments” have Done nothing but turning wow to a less popular game, of another genre. Making it into another game =/= a better game. By your logic, it would make sense to turn American football into soccer, because soccer is more popular world wide, thus it’s objectively better in every way. That would be a silly argument, just like your argument. I’m sure you’re much better than that.

What do you mean "my way"?

The only thing that I stated about what I want is quest mobs with extremely long respawn timer to be faster. Notice I said faster, not fastest, or instant, or every 10 seconds. Some mobs have a 15 minutes respawn timer atm, faster means 14 minutes would be better, a step in the right direction. There is not a single sentence in any of my posts that suggest I want the game to become FAST or anything like that. This is called assumptions on your part and if you're gonna start that bullshit we can't have a discussion. I chose my words carefully to communicate a precise message, I mean nothing out more than the words I type so if you look further than what I said you're just gonna get lost. Stop trying to find meanings in things I (or others) have not specifically said.