Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Malikath]

I see you haven't been playing Fortnite recently... Epic is doing everything it can to allow new players to get both kills and wins to drive Vbuck sales.

that's not a argument in it's favor, just more exploitative manipulation of game mechanics to push people into buying fake money.

[Kiri]

All the bolded words are words or phrases you're using as assumptions to try and make your argument seem like the correct one. Let me inform you, the tactic you're employing is a well-known logical fallacy. You're recounting your personal memories from fifteen years ago and inflating them by saying "Everyone" and "most people" as if you have an army of people behind your opinion. You don't.

This thread is not about the dungeon finder. It's about LFR. Please comprehend and keep up. If you're unable to maintain your attention long enough to remember that the LFR is the topic, and not the dungeon finder, how am I supposed to take you seriously recounting memories from a decade and a half ago? You're for real?

You haven't stated a single fact. I am not sick of raid attunements. Raid attunements did not go away in BC. Feel free to try that again, because raid attunements are a poor example for the point you're trying to make. I remember Classic very well. So well, in fact, that I'm aware it's my favorite version of the game. The only feature I think I'll miss is Transmogrification, but alas, a small price to pay for a game without participation trophies and epic loot casinos.

Seriously, Vanilla is fifteen years old and Blizzard, to this very day, has to police private iterations made by people who want to relive this experience at the tremendous cost of their immense time creating it, maintaining it, and with the risk that it could all go away instantly with legal action. But yet, try harder to convince me that in 6 months Classic will be an after-thought. It's lasted 15 years, and now people have a safe, reliable way to play it. It's totally gonna flop in the next 6 months, right? Gimme a break, dude.

Aren't you doing the same thing, just for the opposite side there? Yes, there are people who went through great lengths to still be able to play classic - just like there were people who were sick of attunements. Both of these are true, but also kind of anecdotal. Neither of these things are predictors for the success or lack thereof of classic. There were lots people happily doing attunements back in the day, and there were people on playing on private servers because it was free (well, not "only" in the sense that it was the sole reason, more that said people wanted to play, but were not willing to pay).
We will see how this all plays out, but you undermine your own argument if you turn around and then do something very similar. Either you or him will be right in six months time. Talk about it then.

[Elias01]

Aren't you doing the same thing, just for the opposite side there? Yes, there are people who went through great lengths to still be able to play classic - just like there were people who were sick of attunements. Both of these are true, but also kind of anecdotal. Neither of these things are predictors for the success or lack thereof of classic. There were lots people happily doing attunements back in the day, and there were people on playing on private servers because it was free (well, not "only" in the sense that it was the sole reason, more that said people wanted to play, but were not willing to pay).
We will see how this all plays out, but you undermine your own argument if you turn around and then do something very similar. Either you or him will be right in six months time. Talk about it then.

I thought it was 1 week and classic dead. Or was 2 weeks? Or month? I dont know. What we know so far is that every single negattive predictions were all wrong.

And lets be honest even BFA do not retain players for more than 1 month. So if 15 old game game retain players for 6 months i would give myself big slap on my face as developer.

[Malikath]

Aren't you doing the same thing, just for the opposite side there?

the difference is unlike the argument they're criticizing there's actual proof to back their claims.

[Hittion]

So you replied with an example of one of those "no justifiable reasons". Good job.

If someone does LFR, how is this killing the game? Answer: it isn't.

If someone does LFR, how does it affect you? Answer: it doesn't.

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Nonsense.

LFR gets you two things: the basic completion achievements that just award achievement points and gear that is subpar to what you can get from world content.

Meanwhile, anyone who thinks you can AFK in a normal raid is a) an idiot and b) soon to get kicked from the raid. Hell AFKers get kicked from LFR. Your hyperbole is flat out wrong.

It doesn't take away from "real" raiding in any measurable way other than people who really want us to think it does.

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Also nonsense.

This is presumably also an argument against LFD or any other grouping functionality in the game. You know what these tools replace? Spamming "LF2M for VC" in general chat. There's no "social aspect" being destroyed here.

Except it did effect the game for years.. you can just hand wave away killing the old progression system as " it didn't effect anyone".

[CrawlFromThePit]

That's not how it happened in the past. Usually people just got bored trying to get to cap, and quit. If they did get to cap, they tried to some things, got bored, and quit. At various points, they may have also ground out battlegrounds for a while, then quit. I mean, part of that's assumption, and part of it's just looking at the data, and part of it is talking to people. Raiding never had good numbers. That's a fact. It still doesn't. Especially not for something that gets the bulk of the financial focus post launch. WoW has also had probably over 100 million previous subscribers, definitely at least 90 million, and that's a fact. Clearly it was having issues keeping people playing the game. Like... LFR and LFD got made for a reason. These things didn't just pop up because some entitled whiny people on the internet complained enough and it just happened. It probably happened because the bulk of the content they were spending money on wasn't being used. It's not a crazy conclusion to make. Vs saying making something barely anyone wanted and or could engage in, engageable, suddenly made a ton of people quit.

I will say, though, that WoW probably would have been healthier sticking to it's guns and settling for only having about 500,000-1 million really dedicated players. Then it could be consistent and not focus on pleasing like 10 different groups of people. Chasing after the mainstream in a genre that's not really made for the mainstream was always pretty weird. But being consistent is something I guess WoW never wanted to be.

Yeah they did mention that not enough people for their taste were raiding so they tried to make it more accessible, basically they tried to make everything more accessible. The way they did that is by putting more and more easymode content in the game. Questing is easier, making gold easier, raids easier (through LFR, Mythic is still hard) and so on.

The issue is that they were never looking at the right thing. The fact that most people did not engage in hard content does not mean it needs to be made easier. They had to look at what people played for, not what they currently do. Right now they think people enjoy WQs because people do them a lot. We do them for the goal of farming AP or for specific rewards, not because we enjoy them. People did a lot of other things other than raiding during pre LFR days, they didn't do these things specifically for fun, they did it for the same reason anyone does anything in this game today: to reach the next step. If you bring that step down to sea level, people have nothing to aim for and get bored. People enjoy, even unconsciously, having something to aim for or dream of. It drives them to do less enjoyable content in the hope of reaching that dream. That's why having hardly accessible raids that almost no one does is actually a good thing in the game, it drives people to get there even if most won't.

The vast majority of gamers NEVER FINISH the games they buy. WoW is a video game just like any of them and the players have the same mentality, they will have fun doing the journey and will either move on to other things before reaching the end or quit once they finished. People who finish a game on easy mode will consider it done without ever touching hard mode, same goes with raiding, you give them LFR and they think they're done, they feel no incentive to do THE SAME CONTENT but harder. Some do, very tiny amount of people do in regular games, it's a bit different in MMOs because of the progression aspect of it but there's still a lot of people who now consider LFR to be the end of their game because there's no content beyond that. All of these people would have a longer, more fun and immersive journey in the game if their goal was hard to reach and more rewarding in the end.

[Black Goat]

Aren't you doing the same thing, just for the opposite side there? Yes, there are people who went through great lengths to still be able to play classic - just like there were people who were sick of attunements. Both of these are true, but also kind of anecdotal. Neither of these things are predictors for the success or lack thereof of classic. There were lots people happily doing attunements back in the day, and there were people on playing on private servers because it was free (well, not "only" in the sense that it was the sole reason, more that said people wanted to play, but were not willing to pay).
We will see how this all plays out, but you undermine your own argument if you turn around and then do something very similar. Either you or him will be right in six months time. Talk about it then.

I'm not using phrases like "a lot of people" or "everyone" or "everybody" to support my argument. He or she is. I don't need artificial support from phantom people to back me up.

If you'd actually read my post, this should be obvious to you as to why it's relevant and how totally wrong you are in accusing me of the same cheesy tactics to support my belief. I am human so I make mistakes, so please show me where I used a similar tactic in my post. If you read carefully, I only speak for myself.

I haven't undermined my argument, and I challenge you to show me where I did.

[Erlking]

Lfr reduces socal interaction, this ia why vanilla feels so lively.

[grandgato]

I'm not using phrases like "a lot of people" or "everyone" or "everybody" to support my argument.

No, the game is actually catering to entitled children by giving them participation events and easier classes to play. You have it backwards, but it's my pleasure to correct you. You feel entitled to have the feature in the game, and I think it simply made the game and its players worse by and large. Sure, it helped a few raiders and guilds. But it spoiled so many others, and the environment in an LFR is toxic beyond belief. People know they can just AFK or outright wipe the boss to troll the other people with little or no consequence. And this behavior extends with those individuals into higher difficulties.

You kind of are.

[Black Goat]

You kind of are.

So, you're the 2nd person to not understand what's going on here.

Please bold the area where I stated others share my opinion, or that I have hundreds of "people" that align with my perspective. I get you guys are desperate to defend LFR, but you're gonna have to be sharper than that. I'm actually conceding in that argument that there's no doubt some people benefit from LFR, but it is my opinion (not most peoples', not everyones', not everybody's) that it has also had a negative impact on people looking to raid.

This is really an elementary level of critical thinking.

[Sinyc]

that's not a argument in it's favor, just more exploitative manipulation of game mechanics to push people into buying fake money.

My point is, it doesn't affect you if a new person boosts and levels to cap and just does LFR. However, Epic is making the game BAD for both new and existing users who have put months or even a year or more into Fortnite.

[damonskye]

All the bolded words are words or phrases you're using as assumptions to try and make your argument seem like the correct one. Let me inform you, the tactic you're employing is a well-known logical fallacy. You're recounting your personal memories from fifteen years ago and inflating them by saying "Everyone" and "most people" as if you have an army of people behind your opinion. You don't.

This thread is not about the dungeon finder. It's about LFR. Please comprehend and keep up. If you're unable to maintain your attention long enough to remember that the LFR is the topic, and not the dungeon finder, how am I supposed to take you seriously recounting memories from a decade and a half ago? You're for real?

You haven't stated a single fact. I am not sick of raid attunements. Raid attunements did not go away in BC. Feel free to try that again, because raid attunements are a poor example for the point you're trying to make. I remember Classic very well. So well, in fact, that I'm aware it's my favorite version of the game. The only feature I think I'll miss is Transmogrification, but alas, a small price to pay for a game without participation trophies and epic loot casinos.

Seriously, Vanilla is fifteen years old and Blizzard, to this very day, has to police private iterations made by people who want to relive this experience at the tremendous cost of their immense time creating it, maintaining it, and with the risk that it could all go away instantly with legal action. But yet, try harder to convince me that in 6 months Classic will be an after-thought. It's lasted 15 years, and now people have a safe, reliable way to play it. It's totally gonna flop in the next 6 months, right? Gimme a break, dude.

Stop with the anger, dude, geez.

LFR and the dungeon finder are the same technology: the ability to get into the action and actually PLAY THE GAME with immediacy. Waiting forever and trolling general or trade chat for pick up groups is not playing the game; it's a waste of players' time. Playing the game is playing the game. Like it or not, call it my bias or don't, Blizzard implemented QUALITY OF LIFE content over time, from the group finder to transmog, from flying to quest revamp and breadcrumb quest threads, and much more. That quality of life content was not created just because Blizzard developers had nothing to do with their time... it came from years of feedback, be it on official forums, tweets, posts here, posts on Wowhead, and most of all, in-game play.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that the reason why raid attunements went away, LFR and LFD content was created, and other quality of life improvements were implemented was because that's what the player base wanted when it happened. And yes, I was there in vanilla, and I remember distinctly how much trouble Molten Core raid attunement became over time for guilds that were still getting new players. But I don't need to speak to that, the game spoke to that over time. And continues to speak to it.

Go have fun in classic. We'll see how well it's doing in 6 months.

[Black Goat]

Go have fun in classic. We'll see how well it's doing in 6 months.

I'm not angry. I'm tired of people like you making up numbers and evading when you're called on your imaginary "facts" just like you've done with each consecutive post.

This thread, once again, is not about LFD. It is nowhere in the title, and completely irrelevant to the context. LFR matchmakes you with 24 other people to complete a raid. It has a completely different interface and impact on the game. They are not the same thing. Furthermore, dungeons and raids are also very different things.

I'll have fun in Classic regardless. Perhaps you should go have fun reading this article:

https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_w...fallacies.html

[rrayy]

I love how people are all up in arms about LFR still and yet pretty much nobody actually does it these days, even people that don't raid get better gear doing World Quests/Dungeons. It's got to a point where it could pretty much not exist and have no impact and yet people are still legit angry that it does, it's so funny.

Show me your proof that nobody does LFR.

I love how people completely make up claims to push a narrative. It's funny.

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Well because there are many times we have to run LFR because of trinkets that are more powerful than even last tier mythic ones or those quest/essence drops. If it doesn't drop in normal/hc you do lfr. You can't just avoid it completely.

You absolutley can avoid it You absolutely do not need to trinkets to complete the higher levels of the raid. That is you showing no self control.

[Arakakao]

Would you say that you spend more than 3 hours a week in LFR? Including q??

Raiding aint a job people just don't want to admit they are too lazy to put in minimal effort

My experience using LFR was fast. Each day you can do one wing in less than an hour. 3 hours a week for being able to see a whole raid and see how the story ends? Yes please.

I stopped raiding because I couldn't stand it anymore. The moment you commit to a serious raiding group, WoW becomes a job. You are expected to farm good gear, do your +10 mythic, have your artifact high, do weekly quests to obtain good essences... not to mention you are forced to have 2-3 hours per day sacrificed specifically for raiding, you can't leave earlier without a good reason, you can't be late without a good reason, you can't watch a show with you partner after dinner, etc.

All of that is like a job, except you are paying instead of earning money. Not to mention, all the stress generated from raiding. I play games to relax, not to stress myself more than I already are.

I have quit top raiding and retail becouse of lfg and lfr. I am no sociopat and having blast playing with boys on classic. How can game what is far less acessible be far more sucesfull than anything Blizzard has released since TBC? Hmmm? It completly dominated twitch. More than 1 week and we still getting queues after several new realms opening.

If you left the game because there's an option you are not obligated to use, then you have a problem, not the game.

Classic is only succesful because it's something new, it's that mistified original game that Blizzard had forbidden and is finally back. Give it 2-3 months and people will leave it in mass when they realize how tedious and monotonous everything is, not counting the exagerated amount of time you have to expend to do anything.

LFR devalued raiding. It lost its epicnes. There is this false statement thay casuals somehow want and need high end gear and sucesfully clear every single raid. It is absolute nonsense. Casual players do not want it. It is just vocal minority crying coz gimi gimi attitude.

Everyone wants to advance in a game, in a way or another. And for casual players, having an easy non-time-consuming access to a raid allows them to see how the story ends. Because, maybe you didn't realize it, but raids are an important part of the story. If you can't access them playing only on a casual level you are treated with a story that will be always unfinished for you. Unless of course, all raids become non-sense other than "there's a tomb full of treasures, let's go raid it (pun not intended)".

Raids haven't lost its epicness: heroic and mythic mode are still inaccesible for casual players. They have heard how mythic Gul'dan summons an avatar of Sargeras, how heroic Mechatorque requires real-time communication... things they won't see and won't experience those encounters in full glory. But at least they can see how the isurrection storyline ended without having to look at it on youtube.

[rhorle]

Except it did effect the game for years.. you can just hand wave away killing the old progression system as " it didn't effect anyone".

LFR was not what killed the old progression system though. You can't just blame LFR for everything and expect to be taken seriously.

[rhorle]

People who advocate LFR because they lack time to commit to organized raiding are hypocrites, for most people a queue as dps is 1hour+ and thats not even assuring you people wont leave the group after wipes and you need to sit and wait for new tanks etc. In an organized group you'll get that cleared in less than 1hour ideally, whereas with LFR every queue can take over 1hour. Its a terrible argument.

There is a large difference between not having the time for organized raiding and not being able to play at all. People are not hypocrites to say they don't have the time for organized raiding but do have the time for LFR queues. I myself don't have a set schedule and have to work around a wife and 3 kids. I don't do many pugs for various reasons. I don't have the time to raid in a guild. LFR is my best and easiest option. Thus I have the time for LFR but not for raiding. Yes I might be able to find a pug that goes quicker then the first queue wait (because there usually isn't any more wait if you queue for all wings at the same time). I might not though and the group falls a part, or I not make the cut, or I suck.

I still have time to wait in a queue. The only real problem is I run out of daily things to do while waiting most times. I wish I could log on to another character while waiting in the queue. So I could do something on my alts while waiting for my main to pop.

[Revamp Man]

LFR was not what killed the old progression system though. You can't just blame LFR for everything and expect to be taken seriously.

It was and I can tell you exactly when

5.2 LFR

Dropped gear higher than what you got doing anything outside of heroic raiding

Multiple guilds stopped farming raids because why bother when you get better loot for less effort

It killed any reason to do past content and blizzard tried to use titanforging as a way to fix it


LFR was also the reason we no longer have super strong set bonuses (DS LFR)

In a world where some people are motivated by gear (which I will never understand) they will take the easier path

LFR began a downfall of raiding and the numbers can be used for the proof

Move to now and blizzard has decided to constantly kill old content and LFR is part of it (they could Nerf the gear but that didn't work well in WoD)

[Vakna]

Show me your proof that nobody does LFR.

Fair enough, some people do it, but all they are doing is wasting their time getting rewards that are inferior to dungeons and even world quests.

What.. you don't want people to even see a raid unless they go in properly? Then I guess we should ban Twitch and Youtube as well then or?

LFR is so much of a non entity at this point it's unreal, forget it exists and move on like 99% of the player base already has.

[rrayy]

Fair enough, some people do it, but all they are doing is wasting their time getting rewards that are inferior to dungeons and even world quests.

What.. you don't want people to even see a raid unless they go in properly? Then I guess we should ban Twitch and Youtube as well then or?

LFR is so much of a non entity at this point it's unreal, forget it exists and move on like 99% of the player base already has.

Again, shoe me your proof. You continue to throw out numbers and still have nothing to actually back those numbers up. You are merely projecting your opinion onto everyone.