Contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids

[donjn]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

[TheRevenantHero]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

Because those hybrid classes are literally THAT useless. It would be the same as not having anyone in that raid spot at all.

[avitush]

It's not that a ret pally _can't_ DPS. Is just that if you're playing competitively and trying to be first at something, you're going to be min/maxing the shit out of everything and going for the best raid comp that you can. So you're not going to take a ret pally instead of a rogue that can do far more damage.

I think for your average guild that's not super competitive, that's not really as much of a thing. There are certain specs that are just flat-out worthless in some situations (fire mages in MC, for example), but aside from that, I don't think the "normal" guilds care as much.

[OldSchoolWow916]

Because those hybrid classes are literally THAT useless. It would be the same as not having anyone in that raid spot at all.

This. 10chr

[-aiko-]

When it comes to guilds, especially those with a raiding focus, it comes down to part of the fun being min maxing proper raid comps. I'm sure there will be many guilds out there however who won't mind bringing less powerful specs.

When it comes to pugs, people always opt for the path of least resistance. If I advertise a dungeon and a feral druid and mage bite, I'm taking the mage.

[Jotaux]

From what I understand they bring more not dpsing as much. For enhance shamans you want their windfury totem and grace of air which also drains the fuck out of their mana totem twisting. If they aren't needed for that they will probably just pull aggro and die trying to dps anyways.

[Monster Hunter]

Auto attacking will never be classed as legitimate dps no matter how easy the fight.

[wysimdnwyg]

Stop thinking this is a binary world. There is a spectrum of guild attitudes, and as such, there will be a corresponding spectrum of attitudes towards the presence of hybrids in raids.

For serious min/maxxers, hybrids will heal (or tank for Warriors) and likely nothing else. Your dps is inadequate compared to Rogues and Mages - or even Warlocks and Hunters (Warriors get good as Fury in later raids).

For middle-of-the-road raids, most hybrids will conform to the above classifications, but there will be some allowances made for friends or to fill out spots.

For casual raids, little care will be paid to performing optimally or playing "the right spec". These raids are there to have fun and will typically not care if someone plays a "less-desirable" spec.

As one goes down the line from min/maxxer to casual, more and more hybrids (and non-preferred specs like Sub or Arcane) will be found.

[Azsune]

My Guild is going to bring 1 enhancement shaman for the main tank group(Helps with TPS). Feral druid DPS isn't dumpster tier if they go out and farm that 3 charge weapon from Gnomeregan the Manual Crowd Pummeler and combine it with power shifting they can compete at a decent level while providing their group 3% crit. Even if they don't farm it with just powershift it is as bad as people say just more effort than they average one button push. Elemental and Boomkins have issues with mana and literally have to melee while regaining mana as they do not have a wand but do provide a 3% crit buff to casters in group. One shadow priest will be commmon for shadow weaving but beyond that they will be rare as the 16 debuff limit punishes their dps to wand status.

We were also talking about letting a Feral druid tank after a week or two as their TPS seems to be very high and have one trying to out threat a warrior with windfury as many of your DPS will be capped by TPS of the tank.

[Zequill]

For speed. A 1h cakewalk with optimal class is better then 2h cakewalk with bad dps.

[DegatoRox]

I started a leveling a druid and the last couple levels I've been wondering why did I make a druid? If I don't heal then I'm not doing squat in Classic. This thread has been a helpful reminder why I raided a Warlock for so long.

We had a Moonkin for awhile in MC/BWL but I believe we did it for laughs. We were a casual raiding guild, cleared MC/BWL/some Naxx.

[LedZeppelin]

a ret or enhance with nightfall isnt the worse

[Caperfin]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

This is actually a VERY good questions. I have absolutely no idea why there is still this negatively especially with the TONS of guide out there. The community is constantly increasing the dps of these off-meta specs and they've massively surpassed the required personal dps to kill a boss.

[Alcsaar]

Don't go into Classic with out friends to carry you if you plan to play a DPS hybrid.

I played ret in vanilla before anyone really knew better or cared. The mentality is MUCH different today. I still play a paladin in classic, but I do so with the intent of going holy at 60 knowing my class is garbage at everything else and undesirable.

Many pug dungeon groups/raids will avoid inviting hybrid dps like I avoid inviting hunters (for a diff reason). Even if you CAN do the dungeon/raid comfortably with hybrid dps, no one is going to *want* to if you're a pug slowing their clear down because of a sub optimal spec.

[zhero]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

if they can finish MC in one day, with a bunch of lvl 55-59, then hybrids shouldn't be a problem.

[Schattenlied]

It would be the same as not having anyone in that raid spot at all.

That's just completely false... Even if they did literally nothing but auto attack it would still be better than not having someone there... And in the case of Feral Druids, if they are powershifting with the Wolfshead Helm, they are actually fairly decent DPS.

[Unholyground]

Well I am a Shaman tanking in most cases better than a lot of Warriors by the looks of it and been getting compliments about how good I am at it. I have a warrior buddy who will MT raids with me as OT and my other buddy who is a Druid Tank. Find the right people and you can do whatever you want, and there are some interesting things you can do when you have all the information.

[Heathy]

I think the situation is really what counts, if you're on progression you take what you can get, if you're on farm it likely doesn't matter. at some point you either have what you need or you just need what you have.

most of these arguments seem to start from the idea of having access to any class and spec pick, like the choice is dream team or taking hybrids using offspecs, that isn't what the reality is usually like.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

There will be plenty of MC runs with ret pallies et al eventually. But if it's your guild's first shot at ragnaros...you're going to want to take the best lineup you can. Eventually though, people will start experimenting and there'll be all kinds of weird alt runs. It's not like there are any new raids coming out.

[anon5123]

If you have a choice between a lolret and a rogue/warrior/mage, there's no reason to bring the lolret. The only time you'd ever want memespec DPS in your raid is if you don't have 40 people. They're better than an empty raid slot, at the very least.

It's not so much about "the content is so easy that it doesn't matter", it's about NOT intentionally slowing the raid down by that much more. You're going to be slogging through MC every single week for the next year or so. Do you want those MC runs to take 60 minutes or 70 minutes? Your choice.