Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Raelbo]

Sub numbers were higher before LFR was in the game = proof the game doesnt need LFR to survive.

No it's not. I have already explained to you already, lest you forget. But hey, forget that someone already rebutted that point, why not just repeat it later and pretend that it's a valid "fact"?

"But but casuals need to see the raid or they'll unsub"

Like they did back before LFR oh wait no that wasnt the case back then at all.

WoW lost over 90 million subscribers between 2004 and 2014. And given that pretty much no one I know started playing WoW in the last 10 years, it's safe to say that of those 90 million, most were before the end of WotLK, 2 years before LFR.

[Arakakao]

Sub numbers were higher before LFR was in the game = proof the game doesnt need LFR to survive.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. Not counting the fact that numbers started declining way before than LFR existed. Maybe, without LFR, the numbers could have sinked even more.

[TheRevenantHero]

Sub numbers were higher before LFR was in the game = proof the game doesnt need LFR to survive.

"But but casuals need to see the raid or they'll unsub"

Like they did back before LFR oh wait no that wasnt the case back then at all.

Sub numbers didn't plummet until WoD and it had NOTHING to do with LFR.

[Biggles Worth]

I think they should create a server that removes the LFG feature just to see how things pan out.

[Elias01]

No it's not. I have already explained to you already, lest you forget. But hey, forget that someone already rebutted that point, why not just repeat it later and pretend that it's a valid "fact"?



WoW lost over 90 million subscribers between 2004 and 2014. And given that pretty much no one I know started playing WoW in the last 10 years, it's safe to say that of those 90 million, most were before the end of WotLK, 2 years before LFR.

No but it add to it. It wasnt one thing what ruined wow.

[david0925]

Sub numbers didn't plummet until WoD and it had NOTHING to do with LFR.

I am inclined to agree with this, and incidentally this is also when LFR had the worst rewards attached to it.

Raiding is such a minor activity for the major demographics of this game that ultimately what you do to LFR will probably not have a strong net effect on the game one way or the other, so people need to really stop looking at it as THE thing that "destroyed" or "saved" wow.

People need to stop thinking about wow as this grand MMO because it hasn't been one if you define MMO in the pre-wow traditional sense. Yes, in Vanilla-WoTLK before LFD there were more incentive to group via open-world channel (and by that I mean spamming general chat and trade for groups), but the game was never unplayable without groups. This is literally what made it more enticing than the more hardcore MMOs like korean grinders in general and EQ and what defined WoW's success, by targeting an entirely different demographic group who doesn't want to completely structure their lives around MMO.

[Elias01]

There were also like around 90 million people who quit the game in that time. What about that?

(Also, I personally don't think WoW needs LFR. I think raiding needs it more than WoW does. It's basically a flimsy justification to spend a lot of money on an unpopular activity that Blizzard prefers to be the focus of the game. It doesn't even really work as intended. It doesn't seem to keep people subbed. Let me ask you this: Would you be okay if they removed LFR if they also reduced the raiding budget and focused more on developing engaging non-raiding activities? TBH, I would!)

No i wouldnt. I will not play modern game with LFR in it and i wont play modern game without LFR and raids being diminished. I think you dont get that exclusive and unacessible content retains players far better than acessible content for everyone. Dude even creator of LFR said that it was his worst feature created in his carrier as dev. Even several devs fight againts it but idea that you will just press button and get into raid was too strong but they didnt realized what consequence LFR will have in long run. It completly destroy raiding and game community. Also it created trend of seasonal players.

[TheRevenantHero]

No i wouldnt. I will not play modern game with LFR in it and i wont play modern game without LFR and raids being diminished. I think you dont get that exclusive and unacessible content retains players far better than acessible content for everyone. Dude even creator of LFR said that it was his worst feature created in his carrier as dev.

LOL exclusive and inaccessable content drives players away, not retains them. Why would I pay $15 a month to play a game where an entire portion of the game isn't open to me at all? Especially when there are so many other MMOs out there now. And Ghostcrawler has negatively commented about LFR because he takes every chance he can to talk shit about current WoW. Because he's a salty little asshole.

[david0925]

No i wouldnt. I will not play modern game with LFR in it and i wont play modern game without LFR and raids being diminished. I think you dont get that exclusive and unacessible content retains players far better than acessible content for everyone. Dude even creator of LFR said that it was his worst feature created in his carrier as dev. Even several devs fight againts it but idea that you will just press button and get into raid was too strong but they didnt realized what consequence LFR will have in long run. It completly destroy raiding and game community. Also it created trend of seasonal players.

it would retain you and me better because we strive to play at highest difficulty; that is not the majority of the population since Vanilla. Heck, we're probably not even 1%.

Please don't confuse what you (and I want), and what the majority of the people want.

[Milfshaked]

LOL exclusive and inaccessable content drives players away, not retains them. Why would I pay $15 a month to play a game where an entire portion of the game isn't open to me at all? Especially when there are so many other MMOs out there now. And Ghostcrawler has negatively commented about LFR because he takes every chance he can to talk shit about current WoW. Because he's a salty little asshole.

It is neither exclusive or inaccessible though.

I dont think I have ever been so bored of PvE content as when I have cleared all content currently in the game. What drives people to subscribe to a game is having stuff to do. Every player that fully cleared the game in a subscription style game is a failure. Obviously, there will always be some people that fully clear the game, but the goal should always be that there is content left for every player in the game.

You having content left to do is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[TheRevenantHero]

It is neither exclusive or inaccessible though.

I dont think I have ever been so bored of PvE content as when I have cleared all content currently in the game. What drives people to subscribe to a game is having stuff to do. Every player that fully cleared the game in a subscription style game is a failure. Obviously, there will always be some people that fully clear the game, but the goal should always be that there is content left for every player in the game.

You having content left to do is a good thing, not a bad thing.

But this Elias guy wants parts of the game to be exclusive and acts like it won't destroy the health of the game.

[david0925]

It is neither exclusive or inaccessible though.

I dont think I have ever been so bored of PvE content as when I have cleared all content currently in the game. What drives people to subscribe to a game is having stuff to do. Every player that fully cleared the game in a subscription style game is a failure. Obviously, there will always be some people that fully clear the game, but the goal should always be that there is content left for every player in the game.

You having content left to do is a good thing, not a bad thing.

I would go one step further and argue that it is actually fine to be "done" with the game briefly and wait for patch.

Chasing after AP and lucky titanforge as opposed to being done with BiS for the patch is probably the worst feeling I have ever had playing wow.

[Raelbo]

No but it add to it.

Evidence? Reasoning?

The simple fact of the matter is that you have no evidence of what sub numbers would have looked like had they never introduced LFR. All we can do is surmise based on what we do know and using reason and logic. And if your conclusion is that LFR somehow mystically contributed to sub-losses on the basis that you personally don't like the feature, then I'd suggest that maybe you've not bothered to actually apply your mind to the topic.

It wasnt one thing what ruined wow.

Wow isn't ruined. It's still alive and the most successful MMO on the market after 15 years. That's pretty remarkable.

[Black Goat]

What world is this guy living in?

LFR.

/10char

[Milfshaked]

But this Elias guy wants parts of the game to be exclusive and acts like it won't destroy the health of the game.

I think that he is using exclusive in a more colloquial sense, rather than a literal one. It does not seem that he means that content should actually exclude anyone, rather that it should be open for anyone that wants to partake in it.

What he seems to imply with exclusive is that it is good to at every stage in the game have content that a majority of people have not cleared. That most players at any point have additional content to work towards is good for player retention as it gives people a reason to stay subscribed. Now, this of course does not mean that this content should always remain uncleared. With proper gear design and content rebalancing in content patches, content that people were previously working towards should become easier to reach but hopefully still feel rewarding.

MMOs are more about the journey than the goal itself. Reaching the goal is often very anti-climatic and because of that it is very important that a goal for the players always exist so that the journey never ends.

[Raelbo]

I think you dont get that exclusive and unacessible content retains players far better than acessible content for everyone.

We don't "get it" because you've never given us a reason to believe it to be true. I mean, sure, you keep telling us this is a fact, but you've consistently failed to back it up with, well, anything really.

Dude even creator of LFR said that it was his worst feature created in his carrier as dev.

Dude, LFR was created by a team. You're trying to cite one guy, Ghostcrawler, and you aren't even doing an acceptable job of representing his viewpoint, let alone that of anyone else on the team. I remember reading many blue posts reiterating that Blizzard regards LFR as a success and a significant and important part of the game.

Even several devs fight againts it but idea that you will just press button and get into raid was too strong but they didnt realized what consequence LFR will have in long run. It completly destroy raiding and game community. Also it created trend of seasonal players.

Lol. LFR never destroyed raiding and it never destroyed the community. Since you've never bothered to substantiate either of these points, they can be dismissed without further ado.

[TheRevenantHero]

I think that he is using exclusive in a more colloquial sense, rather than a literal one. It does not seem that he means that content should actually exclude anyone, rather that it should be open for anyone that wants to partake in it.

What he seems to imply with exclusive is that it is good to at every stage in the game have content that a majority of people have not cleared. That most players at any point have additional content to work towards is good for player retention as it gives people a reason to stay subscribed. Now, this of course does not mean that this content should always remain uncleared. With proper gear design and content rebalancing in content patches, content that people were previously working towards should become easier to reach but hopefully still feel rewarding.

MMOs are more about the journey than the goal itself. Reaching the goal is often very anti-climatic and because of that it is very important that a goal for the players always exist so that the journey never ends.

If you look at the rest of the thread, no. He literally thinks parts of the game should be exclusive to certain people. He has the mentality that if a person isn't going to devote a ridiculous amount of time of their lives to be part of a heavy raid team then they don't deserve to ever raid. He thinks there should only be ONE raid difficulty and that it should be hard as fuck so only people who are diehards get to see it. He thinks that the LFR crew can just "go watch a youtube video of the raid if they want to see it."

LFR has been healthy for the game. I've seen A LOT of people experience LFR then go on to form raid teams in their guilds in order to experience it at higher difficulties. I've created raid teams myself of people who saw LFR and said "Hey I wanna see what that's like when it's more difficult!" Removing LFR would only cripple the game at this point. Because all it would do is give that sense of entitlement back to people who no-life the game and give them the ability to lord over "casuals" again. Which will cause subscriptions to plummet.

[Milfshaked]

I would go one step further and argue that it is actually fine to be "done" with the game briefly and wait for patch.

Chasing after AP and lucky titanforge as opposed to being done with BiS for the patch is probably the worst feeling I have ever had playing wow.

Yeah, I absolutely agree, but then the games monetezation model has to reflect that. If you run a subscription based game, I dont think it is fine for people to feel done with the content for anything other than a super short period of time. But of course, you dont have to run a subscription model.

A good example would be Path of Exile which run on a 12 week schedule where most people only play for 3 weeks every patch to then not play for the following 9 weeks only to return to the next patch.

So yeah, I do agree with you overall, but not when talking about a subscription style game. You can of course always switch the game away from a subscription style game.

[Raelbo]

It is neither exclusive or inaccessible though.

For practical purposes organised raiding (normal,heroic,mythic) is both exclusive and inaccessible to a very big chunk (probably ~75%) of the playerbase. It requires a level of committment and effort that most players are either unable or unwilling to commit to.

I dont think I have ever been so bored of PvE content as when I have cleared all content currently in the game. What drives people to subscribe to a game is having stuff to do. Every player that fully cleared the game in a subscription style game is a failure. Obviously, there will always be some people that fully clear the game, but the goal should always be that there is content left for every player in the game.

You having content left to do is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Fair enough point. That being said, content that you will never get to doesn't count. To all intents and purposes it's no different from content that doesn't exist.

I'd agree that LFR has a somewhat limited capacity to keep players entertained. But it's still significantly better than having nothing at all.

[Big Thanks]

LFR has been healthy for the game. I've seen A LOT of people experience LFR then go on to form raid teams in their guilds in order to experience it at higher difficulties.

Nice fairy tale.

There is a fairy tale that without LFR people would step up their skill to "actually" raid.
But you also told us a different kind of myth that because of LFR people want to "step up" to other difficulties.

Not gonna pretend i know for sure, but IMO this doesnt happen "a lot of times".