Unpopular Opinion: Can't take Varian seriously

[themaelstorm]

No? It's more like "If you follow a genocidal maniac again, I will end you."

I'd say "If you fail to uphold honor" is pretty vague. But it wasn't my main point anyway.

He had the power to defeat the Horde, even Wrathion aknowledged this.

I'll definitely take Wrathion's word as truth, it's not like he failed any plans or anything.
aka Varian does not, did not, could not have the "power to defeat the Horde."
No one does. Just as no one has the power to defeat the Alliance.

Both factions include some of the most powerful mortals and countless regular folk in them.

It was the same thing for the Horde................

Also, Varian was relying on the Horde to watch his back. When they retreated, he thought they betrayed him, because the person who blow that retreat was the most untrustworthy and conniving witch on Azeroth. It's also Sylvanas' fault, she could have easily sent an emissary to Varian to warn him of their dire situation.

You realize that's exactly what a horn is, right? If Sylvanas wanted to be sneaky, she could've made the escape just visible to the Horde as they were on higher ground. She warned everyone with the horn.

And it wasn't the same thing for the Horde, because while Sylvanas blew the horns of retreat when she realized it wasn't going to work, Varian was yelling "we finish this now" when he saw Gul'dan summoning a dozen of the most powerful demons.

[Wyrt]

She did order the Wrathgate, that's literally stated by Afrasiabi.

Going to need proof.

[Varodoc]

I'd say "If you fail to uphold honor" is pretty vague. But it wasn't my main point anyway.

Let's see, what did the Horde under Garrosh do to fail to uphold honor... Hmm... maybe blowing up city... keeping civilians as literal dogs...

I'll definitely take Wrathion's word as truth, it's not like he failed any plans or anything.
aka Varian does not, did not, could not have the "power to defeat the Horde."
No one does. Just as no one has the power to defeat the Alliance.

Both factions include some of the most powerful mortals and countless regular folk in them.

No. If Wrathion's statement is not enough, you have Metzen stating that the Alliance was the only remaining superpower after the Siege of Orgrimmar.

You realize that's exactly what a horn is, right? If Sylvanas wanted to be sneaky, she could've made the escape just visible to the Horde as they were on higher ground. She warned everyone with the horn.

There's no way to use a horn or to order the retreat of an entire army in a sneaky way.......

Also, Sylvanas should have realized the Alliance wouldn't have believed that her retreat was for legit reasons, because she is Sylvanas Windrunner. It's almost like both parties are at fault for the whole Broken Shore misunderstanding.

And it wasn't the same thing for the Horde, because while Sylvanas blew the horns of retreat when she realized it wasn't going to work, Varian was yelling "we finish this now" when he saw Gul'dan summoning a dozen of the most powerful demons.

I was referring to the gunship part. Also it was working for the Alliance until the Horde retreated, but last I checked the Alliance had no way of knowing how the Horde was doing, especially since they received no message whatsoever from them.

Going to need proof.

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/11/12...red-wrathgate/

The fact that you don't know this polarizing statement from almost one year ago is concerning.

[themaelstorm]

Going to need proof.

It was a vague statement that could mean anything from "she had a clue about something was happening" to "she knew but didn't do anything" (which I believe could be the case) and if you want to, that she "ordered the Wrathgate", but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
Varimathras wouldn't sacrifice himself for Sylvanas, he'd tell it was her call. The whole coup doesn't make sense if that's the case.

[Varodoc]

It was a vague statement that could mean anything from "she had a clue about something was happening" to "she knew but didn't do anything" (which I believe could be the case) and if you want to, that she "ordered the Wrathgate", but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
Varimathras wouldn't sacrifice himself for Sylvanas, he'd tell it was her call. The whole coup doesn't make sense if that's the case.

"The only thing that is not the case is literally the one thing he said".........

[Malikath]

Undercity happened in Wrath. You know, BEFORE the Shattering.

i find it funny you think that they're the same war, but no. the book states that garrosh started the cata-mop war no matter how many times you try to goal-post it it's a official source and you're salty about it.

[Wyrt]

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/11/12...red-wrathgate/

The fact that you don't know this polarizing statement from almost one year ago is concerning.

lol

Another major retcon and another reason why Blizzard's writing is shit. I missed this because I quit playing a year ago and just recently decided to give WoW another try. Shouldn't have bothered coming back.

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i find it funny you think that they're the same war, but no. the book states that garrosh started the cata-mop war no matter how many times you try to goal-post it it's a official source and you're salty about it.

They're the same war though. The conflict that started in Wrath is the same one that's in Cata.

Not that it matters though since apparently Blizzard retconned the Wrathgate to being Sylvanas' orders.

[Malikath]

lol

Another major retcon and another reason why Blizzard's writing is shit. I missed this because I quit playing a year ago and just recently decided to give WoW another try. Shouldn't have bothered coming back.

They're the same war though. The conflict that started in Wrath is the same one that's in Cata.

Not that it matters though since apparently Blizzard retconned the Wrathgate to being Sylvanas' orders.

that's not a retcon, it's consistent with varimathras' warnings about sylvanas and putress' proclamation and monologue.
we just assumed it was the demonlord who was the back-stabber, more recently sylvanas has shown that she's appt at wounded gazelle gambits with the lead-in to nazjatar.

also yes, it's their story and the book it canon.
so it matters whether you think it does or doesn't.

[Varodoc]

lol

Another major retcon and another reason why Blizzard's writing is shit. I missed this because I quit playing a year ago and just recently decided to give WoW another try. Shouldn't have bothered coming back.

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They're the same war though. The conflict that started in Wrath is the same one that's in Cata.

Not that it matters though since apparently Blizzard retconned the Wrathgate to being Sylvanas' orders.

How are they the same war when the two factions attempted to resume their tentative peace after the Lich King's defeat? And another thing, if they were in open war, why would it be seen as such an outrage that the night elves cut their trade with the Horde in protest of the Wrathgate? They are in open war, after all, they can't trade with the enemy...

[Broken Fox]

i was indifferent when he first showed up but by the time he was killed off i actually thought he was alright. the problem is he got the bulk of his screentime after wrath, which is when the story starting turning into complete ass. agree the high king shit was stupid (and still is) but as the hot headed king of the humans i thought he worked just fine.

[Erwarth]

It was a vague statement that could mean anything from "she had a clue about something was happening" to "she knew but didn't do anything" (which I believe could be the case) and if you want to, that she "ordered the Wrathgate", but I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
Varimathras wouldn't sacrifice himself for Sylvanas, he'd tell it was her call. The whole coup doesn't make sense if that's the case.

"Those were all under Sylvanas’ orders"

"VAGUE STATEMENT"

[themaelstorm]

Let's see, what did the Horde under Garrosh do to fail to uphold honor... Hmm... maybe blowing up city... keeping civilians as literal dogs...

Not talking about Garrosh. I meant his threat for future was vague. Let's not forget how hotheaded Varian is. He even assaulted Ironforge once.

No. If Wrathion's statement is not enough, you have Metzen stating that the Alliance was the only remaining superpower after the Siege of Orgrimmar.

Not convinced about that statement and this wasn't visible anywhere but that word (where was this btw)
My points about who in horde still stands. Varian couldn't have "ended them."
The way he puts it is very decisive and full of confidence, as if he can just choose to do it any time. Not the case.

There's no way to use a horn or to order the retreat of an entire army in a sneaky way.......

That's exactly what I'm saying. If she wanted to sneak, she would've done it without a horn........

Also, Sylvanas should have realized the Alliance wouldn't have believed that her retreat was for legit reasons, because she is Sylvanas Windrunner. It's almost like both parties are at fault for the whole Broken Shore misunderstanding.

Of course they must be retreating for good reason, they made it all the way there. It's not like the Horde works for the Legion. And it's extra frustrating that Genn calls out on Sylvanas when Sylvanas literally gave her life fighting the Legion while Genn cowarded away and let people die outside his kingdom.
Assuming Horde betrayed the alliance there was uncalled for
Sylvanas was not hte leader of the Horde then. If it was just the archers disappeared, sure. But clearly the whole horde retreated.
It's really not rocket science.

I was referring to the gunship part. Also it was working for the Alliance until the Horde retreated, but last I checked the Alliance had no way of knowing how the Horde was doing, especially since they received no message whatsoever from them.

That's what I'm saying. It wasn't working. Varian said it was but they'd all be killed. Broken shore was a trap, which was clarified in the rogue class hall missions.

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"Those were all under Sylvanas’ orders"

"VAGUE STATEMENT"

Maybe because im not a native speaker but Stuff happened under Sylvanas orders can also mean "it happened under her rule", no?
In the end the plague was created by the Forsaken, we did know it'd kill the living as well.
It being used in Wrathgate could also be part of the plan.

But what about the coup? What about attacking the Horde soldiers? Why would she ask for that?

What was the deal? What was the point?

"ok guys, you just go kill all. varimathras and putress, then you guys are gonna act like evil and make it like a coup so that we can get away with killing a bunch of soldiers from both sides. ill be under watch and mistrusted by the horde and the alliance will be an obstacle too. But hey, totally worth killing those bunch of soldiers. because that's exactly what I need to kill arthas"


Remember that Sylvanas didn't have "end game" plans by then. She literally killed herself after Arthas.
Or maybe her plan was

"ok, we pull the wrathgate, then I kill myself. Surely the valkyries will save me, then I go to helya, make a deal, it's gonna be great!"

Seriously, tell me please, what would be the point if everything was literally planned by Sylvanas?

[InTheEnd]

Saying Sylvanas ordered it all long is a clear Retcon, no doubt about it. Blizzard employees were all saying "she didn't know" about the attack on the Wrathgate at the time and suddenly a higher-up tries to make out that she did and we should all believe him?

Sorry Blizzard, you can't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining...

[Verdugo]

"Those were all under Sylvanas’ orders"

"VAGUE STATEMENT"

Afrasiabi is an idiot, or do you think Draenor is a titan also?

[Eazy]

OT: Horde rebellion failed at the gates of Orgrimmar, without Alliance there wouldn't be the Horde now.
Anyway - Varian didn't blame Sylvanas, so I don't get what's the point of using her in your argument lol.

Afrasiabi is an idiot, or do you think Draenor is a titan also?

Yes it is, his name was Dranosh!

[Feanoro]

Varian in general suffers from Blizzard constantly writing the Alliance with their hands tied behind their back. He can be a tough fighter and a brilliant general and everything, but he can never escape the fact that Blizzard is never going to let the Alliance achieve a real victory over the Horde. Everything's got to be either pyrrhic or a straight-up loss.

It works a little better with Anduin because he's supposed to be naive and inexperienced (although even still they manage to make him stupid enough to stretch the suspension of disbelief at times) but Varian's supposed to be this super badass warrior, and he could never really be that due to Blizzard's bias for the Horde.

Bravo, the one thing this post needs to be complete and end the thread is this great thread on the High King nonsense:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...iance-Identity

[Erethania]

Let me start by saying, despite playing Horde more, I liked the character and his (spoilers) death was sad.

But he was full of kodocrap.

He talks so big and for some reason, people take him seriously.
"If you don't behave the way I like, I will end you"

The fel you will. You are in middle of Orgrimmar only because the whole rest of the Horde was also against that maniac. It's not like you defeated the whole Horde or something.

And Broken Shore, what the hell. Gul'dan summons all those demons and your definitive answer was... A GUNSHIP? You just got owned on a gunship by mundane demons on your way to Broken Shore (Legion cinematic), how do you expect to succeed against some of the most powerful demons?

Sylvanas' return horn might have saved everyone, but she's being blamed for treachery.


It's a bit late now, but Alliance should've been more objective when taking Varian's words and foolhardy bravery literally.

I wrote about this with a little more detail if you'd like to read that. (With permission from Roz)

What do you think? I'm especially interested to hear what Alliance players think about this.

1. That's not an unpopular opinion
2. That's quite a way to twist what he said. The Horde acted dishonorably under Garrosh, so much so that the developers drew clear parallels to Hitler and the Nazis. Varian was basically like the leader of the Allied forces in World War 2 telling the Germans that they need to stop starting World Wars.

[Itori]

I cant take the story seriously anymore, especially when you realize you and several other people do all the work so they can bum off you and take all the credit.

Kills illidan - maev takes credit
Kills lich king - bolvar takes over, tirion and others get credit
Kills death wing - thrall and others get credit
Kills old chinese gods, saves pandaria, stops garosh - varian/thrall take credit
Goes back in time, stops iron horde - others get credit
Defeats the legion, stops sergeras - illidan gets credit

Like seriously screw that, we get called hero every now and then but we're always stuck being the grunts that the higher ups piggy back off of.

[Erethania]

I cant take the story seriously anymore, especially when you realize you and several other people do all the work so they can bum off you and take all the credit.

Kills illidan - maev takes credit
Kills lich king - bolvar takes over, tirion and others get credit
Kills death wing - thrall and others get credit
Kills old chinese gods, saves pandaria, stops garosh - varian/thrall take credit
Goes back in time, stops iron horde - others get credit
Defeats the legion, stops sergeras - illidan gets credit

Like seriously screw that, we get called hero every now and then but we're always stuck being the grunts that the higher ups piggy back off of.

Would be a boring story if every villain was killed by the unnamed adventurer.

[matrix123mko]

Sylvanas did not order Wrathgate. It was Varimathras. You know, the guy who betrayed her and took over Undercity and the reason we had to go to Undercity in the first place?

It was Sylvanas but only she and Varimathras know about it.