Unpopular Opinion: Can't take Varian seriously

[Soon-TM]

This opinion is correct. Listen to it.

If anything, the comparison between Varian and Manduin showcases quite neatly how much cringier is BfA's story when compared to MoP's (which I'm really not a big fan of, to begin with).

[mario710]

1. That's not an unpopular opinion
2. That's quite a way to twist what he said. The horde acted dishonorably under garrosh, so much so that the developers drew clear parallels to hitler and the nazis. Varian was basically like the leader of the allied forces in world war 2 telling the germans that they need to stop starting world wars.

lmfao

/10char

Infracted.

[Zandalariprelate]

Blizzard's writers and developers:

1) Don't know jack shit about military matters

2) Fall for the idiotic meme about bows being wimpy. Yeah. We know from skeletal remains that European archers had arms like gorillas and trained from childhood.

3) Don't like scary guns and consequently haven't the slightest damned idea of the differences between them or how they would affect a sword and armor battlefield.

(I love when the visual is a musket, but they call it a rifle, or call something a shotgun but describe a rifle's behavior)

Pretty accurate reason why the war games in blizzard sucks. Even the rts were more tactical games rather than real long term battle plans.

[Clone]

She did order the Wrathgate, that's literally stated by Afrasiabi.

No he didn't. Anybody with passable reading comprehension knows that statement is vague as fuck.

[Soon-TM]

No he didn't. Anybody with passable reading comprehension knows that statement is vague as fuck.

Tbh Afrasiabi looks like he's high on something in half on his public appearances, so he giving vague, or even contradictory, answers is to be expected.

[Aresk]

I mained Alliance in Classic, swapped to Horde before AQ, and then continued to main Horde until Argus, at which point I went back to Alliance. As such, my feelings on Varian are basically, "Oh, they're finally using that guy who has had almost no story development. I guess he's gotten a few neat action sequences in cinematics. As far as deaths go, he got one of the more dramatic." It felt like he didn't really do much beyond be a figurehead for the Alliance the way Thrall was for the Horde, at least from the perspective I got. I'm still playing through the Alliance Wrath and Cata storylines, so maybe I'll see him actually do something of note.

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Except the gunship was called in to finish the job when the Alliance was still thinking they could win this fight. Also, the Horde's retreat didn't expose any flank because the Legion forces from Horde's side needed to take a hike around the entire island to reach the Alliance due to the topography of the terrain. Furthermore, Alliance retreated when they did only because they heard the Horde's horn and realized the Horde retreated. And had they not retreated when they did, they'd still be on the ground when Gul'dan dropped his Fel Reaver. Which means the Alliance would get roasted. So the claim that Sylvanas didn't save the Alliance is flat out false.

If the Horde's retreat didn't expose any flank, what were they doing there in the first place? Sylvanas literally says, "We'll take the ridge and cover your flank," before she runs up there. Either the Horde forces were protecting the flank, as Sylvanas said, or Sylvanas lied to the Alliance (and led the Horde to a useless plateau to die).

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And Blizzard backed out of it just a few weeks later by saying even most of the Orcs turned against Garrosh. Never mind that regardless of being a superpower or not, the Alliance leaders in Underhold would still get killed had they tried anything and the Alliance would instantly turn into a headless superpower.

I'm not convinced they'd die, given Jaina was with them and has ungodly teleport/shielding powers to protect Alliance leaders whenever they're in a tight spot (e.g. the trap in the throne room during the Battle of Lordaeron in BfA). Then again, she couldn't afford to throw a barrier around Gelbin during the initial approach to the harbor, nearly costing the Alliance their entire assault, so mileage definitely varies on that front. Which is really the big issue with Blizzard writing; we can't say who would win because everyone's abilities to succeed are based more on narrative tension than consistency.

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The dead giveaway is the Varimathras fight himself.

When we're coming for him, does he try to escape? Act like a Dreadlord usually would and try to save his ass by selling out Sylvanas and talking us down?

No, he's using the Undercity as a fortress in which he can open portals, summon a shitload of Legion, all while a voice from beyond is talking about "endless planning" and Varimathras is saying "the master is near".

Yeah, so unless Sylvanas was over there doing all this just to secretly summon one of the Legion's leadership and help destroy the world, I'm pretty sure it wasn't actually done on her orders at the time. They can go back now and say that it totally was and it's their canon so whatever, but at the time it was written it totally wasn't.

It could be that Varimathras was merely taking the opportunity of the three-sided conflict (Horde vs Alliance vs Scourge) to attempt his actual plan. I agree with your supposition that Sylvanas wasn't working with the Legion. That doesn't mean she wasn't behind the Wrathgate. It definitely was not portrayed that way at the time, but I think it falls just short of a retcon (in that the only evidence we really had that Sylvanas wasn't behind it is her word).

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Varian in the other hand, was the answer of a "intricated" story about Onyxia and the throne. Then Varian returned and it was amazing, because you know... he was an important character since warcraft rts.

Beyond being the prince to the kingdom of Azeroth (back when it was a kingdom), why was he important in the RTS? I barely recall him being mentioned as much of anything, and I'm wondering if there's something I forgot related to the RTS.

[Mellrod]

Varian in general suffers from Blizzard constantly writing the Alliance with their hands tied behind their back. He can be a tough fighter and a brilliant general and everything, but he can never escape the fact that Blizzard is never going to let the Alliance achieve a real victory over the Horde. Everything's got to be either pyrrhic or a straight-up loss.

It works a little better with Anduin because he's supposed to be naive and inexperienced (although even still they manage to make him stupid enough to stretch the suspension of disbelief at times) but Varian's supposed to be this super badass warrior, and he could never really be that due to Blizzard's bias for the Horde.

Exactly. The Alliance could be amazing if Blizzard's writers didn't become heavily biased in the stories the write. So many potential plot threads within the alliance races. Void Elf & Lightforged conflicts, A spotlight on the Council of Three Hammers and their disagreements, The Draenei actually fixing the Exodar, Gilneans retaking their home, Night Elves finding or building a new one, etc etc. In War of the Thorns & Darkshore Warfront, we finally got to see some Night Elf story that's more true to their feral nature (i.e. the savage, deadly, and incredibly efficient guerilla tactics Grom witnessed when fighting Night Elves in Ashenvale during WC3), but there's always more that could be done.

Instead Blizzard's got too many pet characters on the Horde. They put more effort into their stories, and then they become fan favorites, further cementing the lopsided neglect in this world's writing. Now Alliance is an afterthought, a plot device to further the Horde's story, time and time again.

[therealstegblob]

She did order the Wrathgate, that's literally stated by Afrasiabi.

He's wrong. Afrasiabi has contradicted himself like this in the past because he seems to suffer from "writer who just forgets shit they wrote" syndrome.

There's absolutely nothing, anywhere, that indicates that Sylvanas somehow ordered the Wrathgate or pinned it on Varimathras. Afrasiabi just straight up forgot what actually happened.

[Raisei]

Let me start by saying, despite playing Horde more, I liked the character and his (spoilers) death was sad.

But he was full of kodocrap.

He talks so big and for some reason, people take him seriously.
"If you don't behave the way I like, I will end you"

The fel you will. You are in middle of Orgrimmar only because the whole rest of the Horde was also against that maniac. It's not like you defeated the whole Horde or something.

Indeed he stood in the middle of Orgrimmar, with it`s entire warmachine and defenses destroyed, most of it`s standing army decimated and a blockade of Alliance ships already set up. Not to mention that he has the heroes and all the most powerful leaders of the Alliance behind him. If he had wanted, he could have ended it there. But Anduin appealed for the Horde to receive another chance (wonder if he regrets that now).

And Broken Shore, what the hell. Gul'dan summons all those demons and your definitive answer was... A GUNSHIP? You just got owned on a gunship by mundane demons on your way to Broken Shore (Legion cinematic), how do you expect to succeed against some of the most powerful demons?

Sylvanas' return horn might have saved everyone, but she's being blamed for treachery.

Uhm... yeah, you might want to rewatch both of the cinematics. The Alliance was WINNING against the army of demons Gul'dan summoned. The Gunship was just to finish them off for good. You have to realize who was fighting there: Varian one of the strongest warriors in history (he one-shotted a felreaver only seconds later), Mekkatorque in a mechsuit that only recently kicked a lot of butt in Dazar'alor, Genn who can in worgen form easily keep up with Varian, Jaina, probably the most powerful human mage alive (no one cares about Khadgar) who also single-handedly stalled a bunch of the strongest Horde heroes. This is not a normal army and Varians plan worked.

The only reason we lost on the Broken Shore is that the Horde failed to hold the flank, then Vol'jin got stabbed and in response the Horde left the Alliance to die. Sylvanas horn saved the Horde but it also doomed the Alliance, she did not safe EVERYONE. Maybe she did not betray the Alliance intentionaly but she most certainly did not safe them.

[Mehrunes]

No he didn't. Anybody with passable reading comprehension knows that statement is vague as fuck.

Rein in your expectations.

[Viconia]

Varian was a silly billy for the longest time, but the way he went out was grand.

It's unfortunate HotS waned away from its potential, it was such a neat way to keep Varian's legacy going among other things.

[Varodoc]

No he didn't. Anybody with passable reading comprehension knows that statement is vague as fuck.

Except he did say that, he literally says that the Wrathgate was under her orders.

[Mehrunes]

If the Horde's retreat didn't expose any flank, what were they doing there in the first place? Sylvanas literally says, "We'll take the ridge and cover your flank," before she runs up there. Either the Horde forces were protecting the flank, as Sylvanas said, or Sylvanas lied to the Alliance (and led the Horde to a useless plateau to die).

To prevent the Legion from taking that hike around the island and attacking the Alliance from behind after some time? Doesn't change the fact that the Alliance's flank hasn't been immediately exposed from the Horde's retreat, which is outright addressed by Genn who was talking about how the Alliance will get overrun with the Horde gone. Future tense, not present tense indicating that the Legion was already tearing their flank a new one. On top of that, since Alliance is led by abject morons, the Horde provided anti-air support to the Alliance until the gunship arrived (and consequently robbed the Horde of the support of their own ranged troops) because Varian couldn't bring his own archers or order the gunship to arrive at the start of the fight. And seriously, how many times does it need to be pointed out that the Horde leader in the fight wasn't Sylvanas but Vol'jin?

I'm not convinced they'd die, given Jaina was with them and has ungodly teleport/shielding powers to protect Alliance leaders whenever they're in a tight spot (e.g. the trap in the throne room during the Battle of Lordaeron in BfA). Then again, she couldn't afford to throw a barrier around Gelbin during the initial approach to the harbor, nearly costing the Alliance their entire assault, so mileage definitely varies on that front. Which is really the big issue with Blizzard writing; we can't say who would win because everyone's abilities to succeed are based more on narrative tension than consistency.

Lorewise Sylvanas is able to silence spellcasting with her voice rendering Jaina useless. Besides, that was pre-BfA Jaina, before she got unexplained powerups out of her ass. The same Jaina that didn't even phase Thalen with all of her spellcasting might while intending to kill him with her attack (and that was written by an author that likes Jaina a lot to say the least). So even if Sylvanas decided to sit this one out the Horde would have needed to just use Lor'themar as a shield against her.

It could be that Varimathras was merely taking the opportunity of the three-sided conflict (Horde vs Alliance vs Scourge) to attempt his actual plan. I agree with your supposition that Sylvanas wasn't working with the Legion. That doesn't mean she wasn't behind the Wrathgate. It definitely was not portrayed that way at the time, but I think it falls just short of a retcon (in that the only evidence we really had that Sylvanas wasn't behind it is her word).

And the word of the omniscient narrator of Forsaken's post-Cata intro calling Wrathgate a betrayal to the Horde and the Forsaken.

But to put things in proper context, even if all we had was Sylvanas' word and even if Afrasiabi meant that vague statement the way Alliance posters want it, that still wouldn't change anything to this thread. Because Wrathgate and "Sylvanas' orders" were brought up to deflect from the fact that Alliance's declaration of war at Undercity predate Horde's invasion of Ashenvale (which some other Alliance poster tried to pretend was the beginning of the war). I.e. that Alliance declaring war wasn't actually the start of the war because Wrathgate.

Except the thing is that even if Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate in the way it has happened and simply lied to everyone, the Alliance bought her lie. Believing that the Horde lost control over some of its people and outright lost a city to them is what motivated Varian to go to Undercity, because he wanted to conquer it from the traitors to the Horde before the Horde could recapture it. And when he got salty that the Horde beat him to the punch ruining his master plan and declared war on the Horde he was absolutely silent this being supposedly a response to Wrathgate or the Horde's culpability for it. He barely even mentioned the Forsaken and even Sylvanas, only calling her a witch in a brief remark. Instead he focused mostly on Orcs and how much he hated them.

I.e. as all Alliance deflection from their faction's bullshit it fell flat on its face.

Beyond being the prince to the kingdom of Azeroth (back when it was a kingdom), why was he important in the RTS? I barely recall him being mentioned as much of anything, and I'm wondering if there's something I forgot related to the RTS.

I'm pretty sure he was only ever briefly mentioned in the manuals in the RTS period.

[Super Dickmann]

Afrasiabi's the guy who said Outland was a death titan and Thros was part of the Emerald Nightmare, all things we know are wrong, much like we know that in in-game material Sylvanas is explicitly stated to be falsely accused of the Wrathgate as are the Forsaken in general from the Forsaken Cata intro.

But let's say Sylvanas did not just the Wrathgate but also 9/11 during the lunch break she had after shooting JFK, none of which I'd put past the witing staff in their pointless attempts to make her less palatable than the atrocious characters arrayed against her and the dead-end status quo they represent. It would make no difference as to who's the initiator of the war as no one was aware of it at the time or made their decisions with that in mind. Varian didn't declare war on the Horde because of the Wrathgate but because in part of Sylvanas' experiments on humans and in part the whole bit where Thrall's top advisor enslaved him and put him into gladiatorial pit fights.

Varian's motivation is not ambiguous and it's clear who he's got a bigger beef with between Thrall and Sylvanas given his spiel:

King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

[Naramag]

I cant take the story seriously anymore, especially when you realize you and several other people do all the work so they can bum off you and take all the credit.

Kills illidan - maev takes credit
Kills lich king - bolvar takes over, tirion and others get credit
Kills death wing - thrall and others get credit
Kills old chinese gods, saves pandaria, stops garosh - varian/thrall take credit
Goes back in time, stops iron horde - others get credit
Defeats the legion, stops sergeras - illidan gets credit

Like seriously screw that, we get called hero every now and then but we're always stuck being the grunts that the higher ups piggy back off of.

If that's the case for you, you can't take work serious either.

If I do my work good, I don't get the credit. Not even my supervisor gets the credit. It's his boss who gets the credit. But guess what? If I do my job poorly, I get the credit.

[Itori]

If that's the case for you, you can't take work serious either.

If I do my work good, I don't get the credit. Not even my supervisor gets the credit. It's his boss who gets the credit. But guess what? If I do my job poorly, I get the credit.

Youre comparing a video game with fictional characters with a pre written story for the players enjoyment to real life...

[Akka]

Someone never did the Undercity event in Wrath.

Wait, you mean that the Forsaken bombing both Horde and Alliance is caused by Varian ?

[Varodoc]

Wait, you mean that the Forsaken bombing both Horde and Alliance is caused by Varian ?

The cause was most certainly not Sylvanas. Even though Afrasiabi clearly stated she ordered it. But what does he know, he's only like the lead creative designer of the franchise. He doesn't get to choose what is canon and what is not. Only I do.

[Naramag]

No, I am comparing the attitude towards something quite trivial to something that has a bit more importance. In other words: The way you are getting worked up about a video game - at least how your post comes across for me - it quite heavy considering the importance of such a game. So I wonder how something with more importance, like work, would get you worked up, since you will get a similar treatment there.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The cause was most certainly not Sylvanas. Even though Afrasiabi clearly stated she ordered it. But what does he know, he's only like the lead creative designer of the franchise. He doesn't get to choose what is canon and what is not. Only I do.

If you actually read Alex’s rambling he never said Sylvanas ordered it.