Contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Maybe the raid(s) melt and are easy because we kniw which classes and specs to bring to raids? I mean sure you can take a few suboptimal picks and not feel much of it... but their role would still be support and not dps. You hear guilds talking about splitting into two raid groups with 20-30 people instead of one with 40 just to get more gear, thats on week 2/3 in poor gear ...what will it be with good gear? 10 people MC clears?

[Jabakaga]

After a year or so you will probably be able to run these raids in these meme specs, doubt most guilds will use hybrid as dps for progression except 1 spriest if they have many warlocks. Stacking certain classes will be hard since so few items drops from each bosses but the most hardcore guilds will run split runs.

[Moor Shadows]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

Because for some reason, people want these classes to be broken/non-competitive. They'll quote "utility" but there's practically no reason to bring any more than 1 of each hybrid class to a raid, and some would argue none at all are needed considering how simplistic the raid mechanics are.

Hardcore anti-QOL's cannot admit the fact (no, not opinion, fact, very much like evolution is fact!) that these classes were half-finished and didn't end up being fixed until TBC.

[Hinastorm]

Let them come to MC, and probably most of BWL too. It won't matter. They probably need to have a lower priority on loot though, cause come AQ40 if you've given a chunk of your gear to meme specs, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Charge me Doctor]

This is actually a VERY good questions. I have absolutely no idea why there is still this negatively especially with the TONS of guide out there. The community is constantly increasing the dps of these off-meta specs and they've massively surpassed the required personal dps to kill a boss.

Because a ret paladin doing 100 DPS instead of buffing and healing is not something people would bring into a pug. Those guides you are talking about require you to make the game your second job with RNG on top of it or/and raid-wide effort to actually make it works - it's not going to work in pugs. If your GM is a feral DPS and somehow everyone is fine with it - great. He actually farms gnomeregan 24/7 and uses powershifting bullshit? Even better for you! But don't be delusional and think that every cat druid is going to be like that, and don't think that pugs will take any hybrid DPS over proper DPS, unless the alternative is the spot being empty.

[meroko]

Bring who you want, Classic raiding was never ever difficult, the mechanics were piss easy, the tuning was not really that tight. The only thing that will be "difficult" is getting 40 people who will synergize well and understand what to do and whatnot. Seriously, don't believe the crap about "hybrid" tax. It isn't going to stop you from downing bosses and progressing through each raid. Yes, even Naxx.

[Zensunni]

Because those hybrid classes are literally THAT useless. It would be the same as not having anyone in that raid spot at all.

Enhance shaman commonly topped DPS in my vanilla guild (he had a hand of rag). Feral druid commonly top 10 DPS. We were at a point that we had everything through the first few bosses of naxx down, and our BWL farm clears were around 2.5 hours.

tl;dr you don't know what you are talking about and are just spouting BS. Ret *is* terrible, but other hybrid dps specs are like...ok. Sure, they won't hold a candle to warriors and rogues, but this is Classic - it doesn't matter, the raids are piss easy.

[Charge me Doctor]

Well I am a Shaman tanking in most cases better than a lot of Warriors by the looks of it and been getting compliments about how good I am at it.

Doubt.

Maybe when your dudes wand the skull, rockbiter (pitiful amount of threat per swing) + shock (about x2 threat per damage) is enough to lock one target on you, but i bet one flamestrike will aggro everything off you.

Just as an example - you are level 40 shaman tanking SM (since it's about the level range where shit hits the fan with shaman tanking), your one-hander swings for ~100 (~160 threat every 2 or so seconds, thanks to rockbiter) and you can earth shock every 6 seconds for 225 (450 threat) which is... enough for two fireballs (~800 threat), then mob will start running towards mage, you lose your auto-attacks and rely on earth shock to get aggro back.

Off course you have other tools, like, chain lightning on pull (120 on main target), fire nova totem (200), magma totem (40 every 2 seconds), but it's not enough when compared to x2 threat that warriors get from defensive stance, ~130 threat per sunder armour cast at level 40 and battleshout threat.

Also i have to mention susceptibility to damage (since obviously mail/plate armoured warrior is going to take less damage than leather/mail armoured shaman), it limits your group significantly compared to a group with a warrior (which takes less damage, spend less mana, spend less time eating/drinking), and warriors have one "oh shit" button usable every 30 minutes - retaliation + AoE taunt combo for massive pulls .


Don't take that as i'm trying to insult your choice to play, but a tanking shaman have way less tools to tank than a tanking warrior. Getting complimented is nice, i get complimented for conjuring water, dropping a portal, rooting a feared mob, opening lockboxes regularly, but i don't consider myself better than any other player just because of that.

Find the right people and you can do whatever you want, and there are some interesting things you can do when you have all the information.

Agree on that. There were always similar-minded people clumping up to do some quirky stuff. But it's very important to find the right people, instead of pushing your agenda into strangers

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Paladin with the Beta mechanics were totaly OP, nothing came even close to it. The beta build got nerfed and completly changes in the last weeks and was never tuned for beta/retail again.

And the meme about autoattacking rets... please compare them to the 80% autoattack fury warriors and 85% combat rogues (autoattack+poisons).

you forget that these two don't have finite resource and have significant boosts for their auto-attacks (weapon mastery, raw damage boost, weapon speed buffs). Again, compared to a ret paladin their auto-attack damage simply scales better.

[Doomchicken]

The hybrid tax is one of the best things WOW had, and the removal of it is what's turned the game into it's current dumpster fire of homoginity.

Hybrid tax was a lie to use as an excuse for poor balance. If Hybrid tax WAS a real thing warriors wouldn't be the best tanks as well as extremely viable dps.

[Kaver]

Hybrid tax was a lie to use as an excuse for poor balance. If Hybrid tax WAS a real thing warriors wouldn't be the best tanks as well as extremely viable dps.

The definition of a hybrid in Classic is a class that can both heal and dps at the same time. A warrior is not a hybrid in Classic.

[Zalamander]

On the private servers we used both feral druids and boomkins in naxx while progressing and clearing the first times, they performed good and boosted their groups significantly. I see no problem using them in raids if they are played by abitious players who know what they are doing.

However sadly I never saw a ret paladin perform well in raids ever. Their DPS were usually somewhere down there with the healers on damage meter, no matter how good gear they had.
Pretty sure even prot spec is way more useful in raids and groups than ret is in classic.

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The definition of a hybrid in Classic is a class that can both heal and dps at the same time. A warrior is not a hybrid in Classic.

I rather classify them as a class that can play 3 or 4 different roles.
I wouldn't call priest a hybrid.

[Th3Scourge]

It probably won't matter much given the difficulty of raids isn't exactly high. Why anyone would want to play such low performing specs is beyond me though

[Devilyaki]

You found the reason why classic is the worst version of wow.

[Kaver]

I rather classify them as a class that can play 3 or 4 different roles.
I wouldn't call priest a hybrid.

Ok. But in relation to the “hybrid tax” it was applied to classes which could both heal and dps. You’re allowed to have your own definition of a hybrid, but when looking at historical facts from 2004-2006 your definition doesn’t really matter.

You might not see a shadow priest as a hybrid but Blizzard did.

[Ange]

You found the reason why classic is the worst version of wow.

It is great filler content for WoW streamers between retail patches, but a few streamers are allready backpedaling to retail because the classic only viewer crowd is jumping every drama/clownshow channel and are not really into actual gameplay. SHOCKING

[Aeula]

You found the reason why classic is the worst version of wow.

Yup. Class identity taken to the extreme. One of the things that made Classic so dull for me.

[JustaWarlock]

The definition of a hybrid in Classic is a class that can both heal and dps at the same time. A warrior is not a hybrid in Classic.

A hybrid is any class that can do anything else besides DPS.

ie not a hunter, mage, warlock or rogue.

Pure DPS should always do more DPS than a hybrid class.

[Kaver]

A hybrid is any class that can do anything else besides DPS.

ie not a hunter, mage, warlock or rogue.

Pure DPS should always do more DPS than a hybrid class.

That’s not how Blizzard defined a hybrid in vanilla though. I’m not here to discuss what is the correct definition, I’m just telling how it was. A warrior was not a hybrid by the definition back then. Classes which could heal and dps at the same times was hybrids by the definition back then. This is not an opinion. This is how the definition was back in vanilla.

[Vorkreist]

For casual raids, little care will be paid to performing optimally or playing "the right spec". These raids are there to have fun and will typically not care if someone plays a "less-desirable" spec.

And they won't have any problems facerolling the raids even with that comp.
Being an edgy min/maxer in classic means nothing. Oh boy my edgy raid of 20 mages just did MC/AQ/Naxx faster than you hybrid noobs who also cleared it easily!!!
Its somehow impossible for people to understand that classic is not retail mythic diff in requirements.
People one shot MC naked and below 60 but boy you do need that extra edgy comp. Who knows what might happen. What if you clear the raid 5 mins longer with those rets and ferals in the group ? *Shivers*

[Xanjori]

That’s not how Blizzard defined a hybrid in vanilla though. I’m not here to discuss what is the correct definition, I’m just telling how it was. A warrior was not a hybrid by the definition back then. Classes which could heal and dps at the same times was hybrids by the definition back then. This is not an opinion. This is how the definition was back in vanilla.

Explain how Warriors aren't hybrid? They were the best tank and possibly the best DPS too, what's not hybrid about this?