The Dark Ranger: Does it have enough material to become a class?

[DaHomieG]

Well let's see. The Dark Ranger had 4 abilities in WC3: Black Arrow, Silence, Life Drain and Charm.

Black Arrow is currently a hunter talent that does the same thing it did in WC3 except instead of a skeleton it's an undead beast.

Silence is a priest spell.

Life Drain was given to Warlocks.

That only leaves Charm, which could be hard to implement. The only way I can see it working is like a Mind Control type of spell.

So yeah, no, they won't be a class.

[DotEleven]

Well let's see. The Dark Ranger had 4 abilities in WC3: Black Arrow, Silence, Life Drain and Charm.

Black Arrow is currently a hunter talent that does the same thing it did in WC3 except instead of a skeleton it's an undead beast.

Silence is a priest spell.

Life Drain was given to Warlocks.

That only leaves Charm, which could be hard to implement. The only way I can see it working is like a Mind Control type of spell.

So yeah, no, they won't be a class.

Well, it WAS a hunter talent in Legion and actually DID summon a skeleton. Unless I'm missing something from BfA. And although silence is a priest spell, us hunters did also have a silencing shot previously, however that was also changed to be a simple interrupt instead of a silence.

[derpkitteh]

Please reread what you just wrote.

Nightborne HUNTRESSES...

yes, they're called huntresses.

my point is that they're not hunters, in any way we know. they do bounce around like survival hunters, but everything else is entirely different. all arcane abilities.

[DotEleven]

yes, they're called huntresses.

my point is that they're not hunters, in any way we know. they do bounce around like survival hunters, but everything else is entirely different. all arcane abilities.

They have some arcane abilities, but like other hunters, they're trackers and trappers and scouts and the like. Very hunter-like. Now, they do have priest spells as well making them much more of a mix between a hunters trapping/scounting and a priestess of elune. But I mean, no one's ever said they couldn't dual class.

[derpkitteh]

They have some arcane abilities, but like other hunters, they're trackers and trappers and scouts and the like. Very hunter-like. Now, they do have priest spells as well making them much more of a mix between a hunters trapping/scounting and a priestess of elune.

that is the point you're not getting.

it's not a hunter that we know. it uses similar tactics, but that's it. it's not a hunter.

paladin uses similar tactics, it swings the big weapon. but it's not a dk or a warrior, it's a paladin. priest uses similar tactics, it casts that light magic, but it's not a paladin. demon hunters use similar tactics, it casts fel magic and uses blades and glaives, but it's not a rogue or warlock.

things can be similar while not being the same thing.

[DotEleven]

that is the point you're not getting.

it's not a hunter that we know. it uses similar tactics, but that's it. it's not a hunter.

paladin uses similar tactics, it swings the big weapon. but it's not a dk or a warrior, it's a paladin. priest uses similar tactics, it casts that light magic, but it's not a paladin. demon hunters use similar tactics, it casts fel magic and uses blades and glaives, but it's not a rogue or warlock.

things can be similar while not being the same thing.

But a Dark Ranger, like isn't just "swinging a big weapon". They're using their farstrider training. They're using HUNTER training. To trap, track, and scout out. They're using their hunter tactics to skirt around the battle field and keep the other person at the optimal range. Yeah, a Demon Hunter is different from a Rogue or Warlock. But if that Demon Hunter used poisons, stealth, cloak of shadows and then also used it's signature eye beams and glaives, I'd call it a Rogue. Just like I'm calling a Dark Ranger a hunter. Because they're using a hunter kit with the added bonuses of their undead state. Just like Fireball and Frostbolt. In essence their base is just a magic missile. They specialize into Frost/Fire to get their specific bolt. A Dark Ranger uses abilities and acts like a hunter for their basis. The undead adds to it, not replaces it.

Like, let's put it this way, instead of a Farstrider being raised it was Warrior. Now you have a "Dark Warrior" using banshee abilities to empower their Warrior abilities. This doesn't make a new class, but could potentially be a new spec for a class. So now instead of Colossus Smash just being a Colossus Smash that pierces their armor it's being rotted and deteriorating from necromantic magic. You get it? Although it's now using necromantic abilities to empower it, the baseline of it is Warrior.

[derpkitteh]

Like, let's put it this way, instead of a Farstrider being raised it was Warrior. Now you have a "Dark Warrior" using banshee abilities to empower their Warrior abilities. This doesn't make a new class, but could potentially be a new spec for a class. So now instead of Colossus Smash just being a Colossus Smash that pierces their armor it's being rotted and deteriorating from necromantic magic. You get it? Although it's now using necromantic abilities to empower it, the baseline of it is Warrior.

does it make a death knight a new class since some are just warriors that are risen up into death knights? they use weapon strikes, just like a warrior, only they're powered by necromantic magic.

you act like the dark ranger needs to use aimed shot, multishot, etc. etc., but NO dark ranger uses any of those abilities in game. they use black arrow, but that's removed from hunters(because it clashed with everything a hunter is), they use whatever that exploding shadow energy shot is, they use their banshee abilities, they use an ability that's more similar to outlaw rogue's riposte.

they don't even use hunter abilities, 0 hunter abilities.

[DotEleven]

does it make a death knight a new class since some are just warriors that are risen up into death knights? they use weapon strikes, just like a warrior, only they're powered by necromantic magic.

you act like the dark ranger needs to use aimed shot, multishot, etc. etc., but NO dark ranger uses any of those abilities in game. they use black arrow, but that's removed from hunters(because it clashed with everything a hunter is), they use whatever that exploding shadow energy shot is, they use their banshee abilities, they use an ability that's more similar to outlaw rogue's riposte.

they don't even use hunter abilities, 0 hunter abilities.

But they aren't just warriors. They aren't using Warrior abilities. They don't charge, they don't use giant smashes, to tear apart the enemy, they don't do anything really warrior-like. Dark Rangers use Hunter abilities accentuated with necromantic power. They do use those abilities, it's just slightly changed. Like I said, Aimed Shot (or Arcane Shot) to Black Arrow, Disengage to Banshee form-like Disengage, Multi-shot to withering fire as an AoE. And like I said, they still fill the hunter style of trapping, tracking, scouting, keeping an enemy at an optimal distance while skirting around the battlefield. The tactics are still the same. Because they are Farstriders using Farstrider strategies.

[derpkitteh]

But they aren't just warriors. They aren't using Warrior abilities. They don't charge, they don't use giant smashes, to tear apart the enemy, they don't do anything really warrior-like. Dark Rangers use Hunter abilities accentuated with necromantic power. They do use those abilities, it's just slightly changed. Like I said, Aimed Shot (or Arcane Shot) to Black Arrow, Disengage to Banshee form-like Disengage, Multi-shot to withering fire as an AoE. And like I said, they still fill the hunter style of trapping, tracking, scouting, keeping an enemy at an optimal distance while skirting around the battlefield. The tactics are still the same. Because they are Farstriders using Farstrider strategies.

those aren't the same abilities at all, and saying they are is basically saying howling blast is judgement, festering strike is colossus smash, and demon's bite is sinister strike.

[threads]

Could be tho, dark ranger is similar to a MM. They could even replace MM for dark ranger spec, just like they did with combat rogue that turned into an outlaw.

yea let me just flip flop from undead ranger to alive beast master every 10 sec. dumbest idea i've ever heard.

[F Rm]

As many have already stated in this thread. Dark Rangers aren't suited for the Hunter class. The only similarity they have, is the use of bows.

I wrote this in another thread a while back as to why I think the Dark Ranger concept isn't suited for the Hunter class:

Black Arrow as a Hunter ability:

As for why they removed Black Arrow specifically, I cannot provide you any official statements.
Best guess, they were changing the way Lone Wolf was implemented into MM as a spec going forward anyway. Means, less use for such a talent...

Personally, I've always thought of Black Arrow as it has worked in WoW in the past, to not actually be simply a continuance of the ability used by Dark Rangers in WC3. When SV first got that ability in WotLK if I remember correctly, I always imagined that it was their(devs) way of giving us an ability suited for the spec that focused on using a self-made toxin which weakened the enemy(making them more vulnerable to other poisons/venoms or other attacks). In the past, this is actually what that ability did for you. It didn't just cause damage to the affected target.

What they then did with the ability in Legion, I would say, was for the sake of convenience. Due to how Lone Wolf worked at the time and MMs had no easy way to provide for a tanking option without first re-speccing.
The actual design and fantasy, with you summoning an undead boar...did not fit the class even a little bit IMO. If you were an undead hunter, sure. But otherwise, no.

Dark Ranger is based on a specific race:

Now, sure, the Dark Ranger concept is a popular demand from a portion of the playerbase. I get the desire for it.

But like has been said. It wouldn't actually fit the class. For several reasons…

Dark Rangers, by design and fantasy(and lore), aren't actual hunters.

Essentially, only resurrected Elven Rangers can become Dark Rangers. The only exception so far, was that of Nathanos, when Sylvanas herself brought him back.
Current Dark Rangers flat out refuse to give up any knowledge specific to their ways, to anyone who wasn't an Elven Ranger in the past.

Some requirements for you to be able to become a Dark Ranger:

- You have to have died followed by being resurrected. And as of now, you would have to have been a Elven Ranger in your past life.

- In order to become a Dark Ranger, you have to completely abandon any past connections and knowledge/teachings regarding the nature and the wild. Both of which are basic requirements for hunters.


Note:
Don't get me wrong here, I do believe that there's motivation for why we should have a type of Dark Ranger as a playable option available to us.
But, as far as the game is concerned, looking at design and lore, Hunters(the class), cannot be Dark Rangers. So we would have to implement them in some other way for it to actually fit.

Look past any Racial requirements tied to current Dark Rangers, and my suggestion would be to introduce the playstyle as part of the Death Knight toolkit. As it fits them much better than it does with the Hunter class. Sure, Dark Rangers, use bows, but that's about it as far as any similarities to Hunters goes.

This is also why I would say that Black Arrow as it was designed in the past(Legion version excluded), wasn't necessarily catering towards the Dark Ranger fantasy.
But more towards the fantasy of using venoms/poisons to weaken the enemy.

___

If anything, it's the old ranged SV spec that needs to return to the Hunter class
(Suggestions) Pre-Legion Survival (4th spec option)

[DotEleven]

those aren't the same abilities at all, and saying they are is basically saying howling blast is judgement, festering strike is colossus smash, and demon's bite is sinister strike.

It's not the same ability, it's a similar one, because yes, hunter doesn't have a spec dealing with the necromatic for us players. The abilities are similar. You have an Arrow shot (one being empowered by arcane, plain power, and necromatic power) a disengage type ability to create distance, and an AoE. (I'll admit, withering Fire is a bit different from Multi-shot, but in HotS the way they show it is her shooting one person and another going to the side quite similarly to multi-shot).

And once again, it's also about the fighting style the Dark Ranger takes place in, which is tracking, trapping, scouting, keeping an enemy at an optimal distance. These are hunter strategies.

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yea let me just flip flop from undead ranger to alive beast master every 10 sec. dumbest idea i've ever heard.

Well, yeah, that's just a flat out issue with implementing Dark Ranger itself is the fact that it's restricted to a single race. But instead think how at home it would be as a spec exclusive to Undead Hunter for example. Like, it would fit 100% perfectly there. And that's the whole backstory for it anyway.

Like, the only problem implementing it as a spec is also an issue for just implementing it as a class and that's that it's restricted to one race.

I mean, they could make up some BS lore retcon where they decide that Dark Rangers are just hunters who have forgone their connection to nature and instead chose a necromantic path, but that would probably just piss off everyone.

Oh, and also the whole "Fourth DPS spec for an already pure DPS spec class", let's not forget that again.

[Ielenia]

Black Arrow Metamorphosis was literally a hunter warlock ability. From Wrath of the Lich King to BfA with it's final iteration in Legion summoning a skeleton transforming into a demon which would be incredibly Dark Ranger Demon Hunter like.

The Metamorphosis ability followed that exact same trend. Just sayin'.

Black Arrow can easily be given to a Dark Ranger class, especially now that it's been removed from the Hunter's toolkit.

[RaZz0r]

instead of making it a brand new class i wish there was more of a cosmetic / story driven quest line for elf hunters.
Where the character brake there normal bonds with nature and the wild and receive special training becoming a dark ranger.
With more necrotic or " dark " based abilities its still the same hunter class just with a dark ranger theme.

Naturally as death will be part of the " transformation " so you cant really go back once you make the switch at least not easily.
Jumping between to two constantly would just not make any sense so if there is a way to go back it has to be on quite the long CD.
Like a month at least along with a few quests to reverse the progress

[Nephys]

Because the points you make aren't refuting the point I'm making. How can a Dark Ranger be it's own class when it's got it's roots as a hunter.

You talk about Warlock and Mage because they're different classes, but Dark Ranger isn't a different class, it's a subset in a class. It would be more like comparing a Mage to a Frost mage. A random starter mage can cast a simple arcane bolt. As they specialize they can shoot a Frost Bolt. A hunter can shoot an arrow. A Dark Ranger shoots an arrow contaminated with necromantic power. A Hunter disengages. A Dark Ranger disengages with their banshee form. A Hunter uses Multi-shot. A Dark Ranger would use something similar to withering fire. These are hunter abilities that are EMPOWERED with the undeath. They do have a few undead specific abilities, but that's no different than when we had the old talent trees so only Marksmanship had Aimed Shot. Making some argument that two other classes which have nothing similar outside being casters doesn't stop Dark Ranger from having a Hunter foundation.

Most warlocks were mages before, its not like you start with dark practices, you just somewhere along the way decide to take a shortcut to power, or get kicked out, or something along those lines. Most Orc Warlocks were Shaman before, most humans were mages, if we were to reduce the amount of classes in the game it wouldn't be crazy to put Warlocks as a Mage spec... Doesn't mean that they can't be different classes.

There's a lot of similarities between Hunter and Dark Ranger, but such was the case as Warlock and Demon Hunter, yet Legion came and we got Demon Hunter, its really the exact same situation, I would even say that Dark Ranger is more different from a Hunter than a Demon Hunter is from Warlock. Basically what we are discussing is if its "different enough", and clearly it is.

[DotEleven]

Most warlocks were mages before, its not like you start with dark practices, you just somewhere along the way decide to take a shortcut to power, or get kicked out, or something along those lines. Most Orc Warlocks were Shaman before, most humans were mages, if we were to reduce the amount of classes in the game it wouldn't be crazy to put Warlocks as a Mage spec... Doesn't mean that they can't be different classes.

There's a lot of similarities between Hunter and Dark Ranger, but such was the case as Warlock and Demon Hunter, yet Legion came and we got Demon Hunter, its really the exact same situation, I would even say that Dark Ranger is more different from a Hunter than a Demon Hunter is from Warlock. Basically what we are discussing is if its "different enough", and clearly it is.

A Dark Ranger is much closer to a Hunter than a Demon Hunter is to a Warlock. A Warlock subjugates and controls demons, casts spells, and works at a ranged stance. And although having a master/servant relationship still work in conjunction with their demon. A Demon Hunter has literally stolen a demons power and absorbed it to use it's power themself while performing acrobatic feats and fighting in melee.

A Dark Ranger is still literally using hunter strategies and tactics while benefiting from their undead state. Like, that is pretty on the nose for a specialization. You have the same baseline abilities, but have these few abilities that make make you more unique that you delve into. Once again, the origins of a Dark Ranger are literally a Farstrider. All the tactics and fighting style they have is based on the Farstrider. And then they died. And then were rezzed. I mean, basically if the undead Racials were a Banshee form retreat and empowering an attack with necromatic magic, every undead Hunter would be a Dark Ranger.

[tru]

Maybe it's time to experiment with faction exclusive classes again.... Lol

[Nephys]

A Dark Ranger is much closer to a Hunter than a Demon Hunter is to a Warlock. A Warlock subjugates and controls demons, casts spells, and works at a ranged stance. And although having a master/servant relationship still work in conjunction with their demon. A Demon Hunter has literally stolen a demons power and absorbed it to use it's power themself while performing acrobatic feats and fighting in melee.

A Dark Ranger is still literally using hunter strategies and tactics while benefiting from their undead state. Like, that is pretty on the nose for a specialization. You have the same baseline abilities, but have these few abilities that make make you more unique that you delve into. Once again, the origins of a Dark Ranger are literally a Farstrider. All the tactics and fighting style they have is based on the Farstrider. And then they died. And then were rezzed. I mean, basically if the undead Racials were a Banshee form retreat and empowering an attack with necromatic magic, every undead Hunter would be a Dark Ranger.

A Dark Ranger is adept at using Necromancy, Sylvanas uses Necromancy to maintain her body (she still uses her original body, without magic it would have decayed), Hunter do not use magic of any kind. Dark Rangers are to Hunters what Paladins are to Warriors. On top of that when we save Baine from the Underhold we see that Dark Rangers are being trained in the same place as the Dark Wardens, it would make sense to join them in the same class, is that different enough for you?

The difference between a Demon Hunter and a Warlock is the way by which they use fel, a demon hunter uses it to empower its body while a Warlock just manipulates fel to cast powerful spells. Its really just that.

[DotEleven]

A Dark Ranger is adept at using Necromancy, Sylvanas uses Necromancy to maintain her body (she still uses her original body, without magic it would have decayed), Hunter do not use magic of any kind. Dark Rangers are to Hunters what Paladins are to Warriors. On top of that when we save Baine from the Underhold we see that Dark Rangers are being trained in the same place as the Dark Wardens, it would make sense to join them in the same class, is that different enough for you?

The difference between a Demon Hunter and a Warlock is the way by which they use fel, a demon hunter uses it to empower its body while a Warlock just manipulates fel to cast powerful spells. Its really just that.

The reason they use necromancy is just because they are members of the undead. Once again, Dark Rangers are literally undead Farstriders. They then use their newfound undead state with their previous Farstrider training. It's not like they use necromantic abilities because they trained or studied in the nercomantic arts, it's just that they were literally raised. Like, you gotta remember, the banshee side of the Dark Ranger isn't part of their class, but rather their state of being, their race.

Like Lightforged Draenei. Lightforged Draenei are now infused with the Light. Just like how the undead are infused with necromancy.

I mean, let's put it this way. If Blizzard named classes based on their race as well, the undead version of hunter would have a high likelihood of being named "Dark Ranger" like how Draenei Hunter would be named "Rangari" and Blood Elf Hunter would be named "Farstrider"

[Piamonte]

The reason they use necromancy is just because they are members of the undead. Once again, Dark Rangers are literally undead Farstriders. They then use their newfound undead state with their previous Farstrider training. It's not like they use necromantic abilities because they trained or studied in the nercomantic arts, it's just that they were literally raised. Like, you gotta remember, the banshee side of the Dark Ranger isn't part of their class, but rather their state of being, their race.

Like Lightforged Draenei. Lightforged Draenei are now infused with the Light. Just like how the undead are infused with necromancy.

I mean, let's put it this way. If Blizzard named classes based on their race as well, the undead version of hunter would have a high likelihood of being named "Dark Ranger" like how Draenei Hunter would be named "Rangari" and Blood Elf Hunter would be named "Farstrider"

how many people have to disagree with you for you to realize you are wrong??

You can repeat the same crap over and over again but it wont be true unless you support it with facts.