new forsaken leader spoilers

[Super Dickmann]

ey did since they all participate in it. They all followed Sylvanas orders and she is not happy. So for that too, i wish forsaken still had a leader that understands war, what does Calia understand of war if something happens? Sure, having a council is just better they can give her some insight but still i think Belmont would be a proper better leader, than both Calia or Lilian Voss. I just accept Calia for what she is and Lilian i know well she doesn't want to lead but just help them.

That is itself the problem. Voss herself would be far better equipped to 'help' any of the Forsaken because she's actually been a part of them. Ditto someone like Cozwynn but I doubt Blizzard even remembers she exists. Voss has actually been through what they've been through up to a point - she was never part of the personality cult, mind, and she's a lot more powerful than your average Forsaken but she experienced crisis and loss, she didn't want to be resurrected and she suffered rejection by the living and by a figure she loved a lot who now said she was less than nothing (her father). She can relate to the Forsaken. But instead of it being her reluctantly coming into her own as a guide to the Forsaken or putting together a council, we're told that the one who really understands and can bring hope to the Forsaken is someone with no frame of reference of their condition but an outside entity. Worse, that because of this, that person can rule them.

The position that blindly following Sylvanas is wrong and the Forsaken need to self-actualize is immediately removed when one of the most prominent Forsaken characters in this expansion, indeed the only prominent Forsaken Horde-side immediately abdicates the chance to take responsibility and instead looks for a different, nicer messiah figure to lead them. In fact, it's a worse case than with Sylvanas because Sylvanas actually did do things for them and formed the state and she had to work and pander to receive their support, as well as in the new canon, suppress their individuality. Calia is actively sought out by the Forsaken to worship because they don't know what to do without a figure like her even though she's done absolutely fuck all. That's pathetic. It makes Sylvanas, the antagonist, right, in her reading of them.

[Shakana]

That is itself the problem. Voss herself would be far better equipped to 'help' any of the Forsaken because she's actually been a part of them. Ditto someone like Cozwynn but I doubt Blizzard even remembers she exists. Voss has actually been through what they've been through up to a point - she was never part of the personality cult, mind, and she's a lot more powerful than your average Forsaken but she experienced crisis and loss, she didn't want to be resurrected and she suffered rejection by the living and by a figure she loved a lot who now said she was less than nothing (her father). She can relate to the Forsaken. But instead of it being her reluctantly coming into her own as a guide to the Forsaken or putting together a council, we're told that the one who really understands and can bring hope to the Forsaken is someone with no frame of reference of their condition but an outside entity. Worse, that because of this, that person can rule them.

The position that blindly following Sylvanas is wrong and the Forsaken need to self-actualize is immediately removed when one of the most prominent Forsaken characters in this expansion, indeed the only prominent Forsaken Horde-side immediately abdicates the chance to take responsibility and instead looks for a different, nicer messiah figure to lead them. In fact, it's a worse case than with Sylvanas because Sylvanas actually did do things for them and formed the state and she had to work and pander to receive their support, as well as in the new canon, suppress their individuality. Calia is actively sought out by the Forsaken to worship because they don't know what to do without a figure like her even though she's done absolutely fuck all. That's pathetic. It makes Sylvanas, the antagonist, right, in her reading of them.

Sylvanas only does stuff for her goals, and she knows before she couldn't do it without the forsaken and she knew where to put the knife to make them follow her as she experienced the undeath. I already knew if Calia would be the new forsaken leader people wouldn't like it because she cames out of nowhere compared to other characters that have been there all along such as Lilian. I do understand everyone's points i do. I just have my own ideas.
All i know is that after Tyrande conversation with Anduin, i see alliance and horde still has their problems with each other, and if ever comes to the point Calia needs to go to war with the forsaken she will not have a idea of what she is doing, she for that shouldn't be leader either.

Maybe forsaken should stop having a leader? I don't know.

[Super Dickmann]

Sylvanas only does stuff for her goals, and she knows before she couldn't do it without the forsaken and she knew where to put the knife to make them follow her as she experienced the undeath. I already knew if Calia would be the new forsaken leader people wouldn't like it because she cames out of nowhere compared to other characters that have been there all along such as Lilian. I do understand everyone's points i do. I just have my own ideas.
All i know is that after Tyrande conversation with Anduin, i see alliance and horde still has their problems with each other, and if ever comes to the point Calia needs to go to war with the forsaken she will not have a idea of what she is doing, she for that shouldn't be leader either.

Maybe forsaken should stop having a leader? I don't know.

The Forsaken are the ones who should have a Council setup if we're sticking with the BTS changes, not the Horde. Voss, Belmont, Lydon etc. Sylvanas did approach the Forsaken for her own benefit, but in doing so they were paid dividends for most of her reign and she was someone who had an understanding of their situation, hence her appeal - none of these can be said about Calia. That bit about Voss and her father I wrote? The very first line of dialogue is praising that father, the guy who tried to burn Voss once she was raised for being an unclean abomination. A loss Calia neither knows of nor can relate to. It's just so tacky and tone deaf.

[Shakana]

The Forsaken are the ones who should have a Council setup if we're sticking with the BTS changes, not the Horde. Voss, Belmont, Lydon etc. Sylvanas did approach the Forsaken for her own benefit, but in doing so they were paid dividends for most of her reign and she was someone who had an understanding of their situation, hence her appeal - none of these can be said about Calia. That bit about Voss and her father I wrote? The very first line of dialogue is praising that father, the guy who tried to burn Voss once she was raised for being an unclean abomination. A loss Calia neither knows of nor can relate to. It's just so tacky and tone deaf.

Ye, they kind of should be council, they should be like horde council + forsaken council after all this events. Also because forsaken had their leader being now a warchief and that team rocket her way leaving everyone, while other races had leaders and a council of leaders they are forced to pick up a leader for the forsaken, so ain't good as well. They need to have time after losing their leader to see who is more fitting and not making decisions for all forsaken, like Lilian did, like "oh Calia, you know what, our warchief and leader is just gone, i don't want to lead the forsaken i can't be a ruler, can you please come here and do it for me?"

I would totally see the forsaken as a council appear on a horde council meeting and having a way better strategy with all their experiences mixed together. Calia that knows how her people was in lordaeron, Lilian knowing how forsaken is after undeath, Belmont being commander for fighting situations. I would like that a lot, and also the desolate council itself to talk about what is better for undercity. It would be a huge horde council but that would give the horde in this new state of changing a more open-minded set to events to come, cause everyone/races leaders, commanders, etc have different experiences.

[Soluna]

Ho sorry. If you character is not loyal good like every other race, you have no depth!
Forsaken are undead and lost a freaking huge part of their humanity. They have been assholes from the start, that's what defines them. They are undead, life does not means anything to them. That's their base character. All their quests about their past life were about revenge about something. Not love even if it was about a passed loved one. They are still far less humans than every other horde race.
So yeah. People can be pissed if some random retard in blizzard decided that it was to hard to have a personnality different than human loyal good, so they would retcon the last race with goblins who were still not Anduin's human.

No, it's not about not being good showing a lack of depth. It's about undead as a race being pigeonholed by you to be just evil bitches, just like bitch queen sylvanas. I am far more interested in seeing a Forsaken race where there are both evil and good guys in, rather than exclusively evil or good characters. You are the one who wants to make to make undead be one thing, and one thing only, and never, ever develop. This is why I say that you don't understand what development means, and are immediately scared at the idea that some forsaken people do not fit your fanfic.

[MikeBogina]

Been saying this for a long time now, but the biggest problem with the Forsaken is they never developed Forsaken characters and focused on Sylvanas. Should have raised a few notable humans over the years for the inevitable vilification of Sylvanas.

Now we have 2 Alliance characters who are coming over to lead the Forsaken, who are going to be pro Alliance... RIP Forsaken identity.

[Verdugo]

No, it's not about not being good showing a lack of depth. It's about undead as a race being pigeonholed by you to be just evil bitches, just like bitch queen sylvanas. I am far more interested in seeing a Forsaken race where there are both evil and good guys in, rather than exclusively evil or good characters. You are the one who wants to make to make undead be one thing, and one thing only, and never, ever develop. This is why I say that you don't understand what development means, and are immediately scared at the idea that some forsaken people do not fit your fanfic.

And you dont understand that with the braindead idiots writing this tripe, we wont have any depth for Forsaken in the future. In fact, even more will be removed so that they fit with Shitduins faction of unity.

[Soluna]

The forsaken were defined through their loss of their humanity and were defined through their undeath, that made them bearable, yet calia's direction turns them back to a more human like outlook. This universe really does not need more focus on humans and their ilk.

What is the problem with that? Being hopeful or kind is not exclusive to humans. Other races can be that way too, without necessarily being 'humanified'. And if they are, have you ever stopped to consider, that they were human before dying, and were brought into undeath, some of which may have had lingering feelings about their previous, human lifestyle. You guys act as if the forsaken were never, ever humans, or as if them being reborn as undead completely overwrites their feelings of being a human being.

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And you dont understand that with the braindead idiots writing this tripe, we wont have any depth for Forsaken in the future. In fact, even more will be removed so that they fit with Shitduins faction of unity.

Then go and impress blizzard, get hired, and by all means, write a better story than them, instead of whining on this forum day and night about a game you obviously don't like, but are wasting 24/7 of your time in, according to your post count. 90% of the ideas on these forums have been always along the lines of something super vague, with no real thought behind it and an 'How awesome would that be?! But no! Blizzard SUCKS!'. I am inclined to believe you are one of them, unless you can somehow prove you aren't.

[Combatbutler]

What is the problem with that? Being hopeful or kind is not exclusive to humans. Other races can be that way too, without necessarily being 'humanified'. And if they are, have you ever stopped to consider, that they were human before dying, and were brought into undeath, some of which may have had lingering feelings about their previous, human lifestyle. You guys act as if the forsaken were never, ever humans, or as if them being reborn as undead completely overwrites their feelings of being a human being.

Humans suck in the wow universe plain and simple and anything that shifts the forsaken even remotely into that direction is a wrong move. Humans hog the spotlight enough as it is I dare say more than half of the entire races combined. Being deceitful evil bastards at least sets them apart from the rest.

[Trbn]

Out of all the reasons to quit WoW...you leave because you're hurt that Sylvanas was bat shit crazy after all the signs and they need to replace her? Should they just have left the leadership empty?

yes, would be better

[Highelf]

Muh identity! Wahhhhh. Most of the forsaken are originally humans from loarderon. Calia being the last living member of their royal family line. And not having the forsaken be mindless blight spitting puppets.

Horde fans: haha make fun of people complaining about an entire city full of a certain race being burned to the ground and having zero justification for it.

Horde fans: Man my race, that was in the group, that was led by the person, who gave the order, to the other person who ok'd it, to slaughter thousands upon thousand is having a story arc and development. WTFFFFF!

[Trbn]

Well .. for those of you clamoring that there was no precedent for this to occur:
Remember that book where the Forsaken try to defect to Calia because she was Calia Menethil heir to the Kingdom of Lorderon?
Raz remembers
Remember when Sylvanas in a fit of jealousy killed all the Forsaken present and Calia because they were going to leave her to follow the Heir to the Kingdom of Lorderon instead of a random elf that basically uses them as rotting meat shields?
Raz remembers

Lets not pretend that this is out of left field. This has been a speculation since Legion
This has been speculated since that book where all this happened
We ... didnt all know what Sylvanas was going to do, but the new undead model humans cropping up and Calia returning to the game with a shiny new model made this fairly obvious.

I think we can speculate a soft faction merge at the least, hard merge at the most. This sets up the Forsaken for a redemption story where they finally realize that they've turned into the monsters they feared under Sylvanas and can move towards changing that with Calia.
and for those of you that were loyalists: think underground cabals awaiting the return of the Banshee queen.

raz probably should be ashamed that he enjoyed and ate all the shit Golden wrote on that idiotic book

you try to find reasoning to stupidity in another stupidity OMEGALUL

[Demetrion]

Well... shit.

[Highelf]

And you dont understand that with the braindead idiots writing this tripe, we wont have any depth for Forsaken in the future. In fact, even more will be removed so that they fit with Shitduins faction of unity.

Exhibit A: ^^

[Shakana]

Been saying this for a long time now, but the biggest problem with the Forsaken is they never developed Forsaken characters and focused on Sylvanas. Should have raised a few notable humans over the years for the inevitable vilification of Sylvanas.

Now we have 2 Alliance characters who are coming over to lead the Forsaken, who are going to be pro Alliance... RIP Forsaken identity.

Yep. Sylvanas is good looking char, people love that and it's a modafucking banshee huntard w/death magic (possibly?) that did always follow her objectives and i loved her char for that (her objectives not her good looking) but not when it comes to forsaken identity. But also i don't want forsaken to be alliance or having a lightbound undead skeleton on the alliance side. They have the humans we have their undeads. everyone is tho too triggered with this while i just want titan residuum to be gone and azerites pieces, with the new content that is coming, i want to be gear azerite free, but they will never do this (sorry im really tired of concerns about races when in my actual gameplay on my chars is this shit annoys the heck out of me)

Continuing the conversation... They could just leave the forsaken be a council with Lilian voss in it. Calia could be part of it too, but doesn't really need to be leader, i thought i wanted this (seeing her being as leader), but now that i'm thinking forward, and how stuff will be playing out, seems not best option. I just wanted to see Menethil having a fking good menethil ruler for once. Heck. But nothing makes sense anymore, just give forsaken their damn free will, they had enough struggles as it is with their fate. Ah well.

[Soluna]

Humans suck in the wow universe plain and simple and anything that shifts the forsaken even remotely into that direction is a wrong move. Humans hog the spotlight enough as it is I dare say more than half of the entire races combined. Being deceitful evil bastards at least sets them apart from the rest.

Yeah, humans suck so darn much. This is why Arthas is perhaps the biggest and most recognisable character of the Warcraft Franchise. I rest my case. It is futile to try and make MMO-chads stop hating the game. You guys will waste your entire lives whining about a game you hate everything about.

[nonameelf]

Yeah, humans suck so darn much. This is why Arthas is perhaps the biggest and most recognisable character of the Warcraft Franchise. I rest my case. It is futile to try and make MMO-chads stop hating the game. You guys will waste your entire lives whining about a game you hate everything about.

If Arthas had stayed the generic human paladin he was then he definitely would not be the biggest and most recognizable character. He became that because he became the Lich King and stopped being a generic human paladin.

[Super Dickmann]

Anyway Il'gynoth pretty much paints a picture of Calia bringing darkness so you will get rid of her eventually.

That lying brain had me think Anduin was going to have depth too and look where we are now. Now all are Anduin. I won't believe it until I datamine the quest to [Cannibalize] her and then have to take pills to deal with the resulting diabetes.

[Highelf]

And there's the horde victim card shining through again. Put the blame on ONE person and pardon the rest who helped in the deaths of countless. Let's redeem them and give them hope and an actual character arc while we give the Night Elves, the race they slaughtered, dark eyes.

[Super Dickmann]

And there's the horde victim card shining through again. Put the blame on ONE person and pardon the rest who helped in the deaths of countless. Let's redeem them and give them hope and an actual character arc while we give the Night Elves, the race they slaughtered, dark eyes.

The night elves get shafted no doubt, but after all the humiliation they've been through at least for one conversation they get to find their balls. Tyrande finally, finally gets her WC3 characterization back and is given the right to call this piffle what it actually is. The Forsaken on the other hand are entirely erased as a cultural entity within a single patch and they volunteer to have this done to them.

inb4 "But if they turn into a monolith that I like then it's fine"