new forsaken leader spoilers

[Atticon]

On the off chance you're not taking the piss, explain why you find Calia a preferable alternative to either Voss or a Council-setup of established Forsaken characters (Lydon, Belmont etc.). Not whether she's inevitable, since she is, but why you think that's somehow superior to the prior two setups. Or even to the whole race defecting with Sylvanas and becoming WPVP targets and quest mobs.

Voss isn't leadership material, simple as that. Any others are relative nobodies and/or are too loyal to Sylvanas and what she represented.
You see a destruction of "Forsaken identity", I see a much needed deviation from an entire race depicted as saturday morning cartoon villains based on a mix of Tim Burton aesthetics and evil alchemist-wizard Rasputin in Anastasia. The entire Lordaeron part of their identity has been in the background for far too long, and "death to the living" was a road leading absolutely nowhere when considering long-running story arcs.

[Rhlor]

The Forsaken are the same people the way the orcs are still the blood crazed demon worshippers in the first invasion

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Even in death night elves can’t escape being taught by humans dear god

there are orcs that still are

[threads]

calia can fuck off tbh

[Super Dickmann]

Voss isn't leadership material, simple as that. Any others are relative nobodies and/or are too loyal to Sylvanas and what she represented.
You see a destruction of "Forsaken identity", I see a much needed deviation from an entire race depicted as saturday morning cartoon villains based on a mix of Tim Burton aesthetics and evil alchemist-wizard Rasputin in Anastasia. The entire Lordaeron part of their identity has been in the background for far too long, and "death to the living" was a road leading absolutely nowhere when considering long-running story arcs.

The Lordaeron identity's been back in since Cataclysm, except quite obviously changed to account for the people there being zombies and there being a large amount who want them removed for that reason and because they're dicks. But if what you want is just Lordaeron completely unchanged from what it was when they were alive, except the people there happen to have a skin problem, then Calia's got you covered. Alternatively, just roll human, the experience is to 1 to 1 the same as what you're aiming. But don't call it progression.

[Friendlyimmolation]

there are orcs that still are

And we have quests to kill them, much like the death stalkers should be killing Calia worshippers to stop the spread.

[Makorus]

It's more like.

WoW Community: We want Cinderella as leader!!!!
Everyone sane enough: FUCK THAT SHIT!!!!!

Not edgy enough for you?

Maybe they should make Calia have a random dialogue where she talks about cutting herself because society is so unfair, maybe then people would accept her lmao

[Phuongvi]

we are the forsaken,we will tend our hands and make peace offering to anyone stand in our way

[Dremmech]

lol @ Forsaken tears. Sylvanas was a crap leader, but because she was so edgy that makes Calia unacceptable to you. Wheres Eric Cartman licking up all your tasty tears?!

[Zuben]

The worst possibility came to pass.

Does this mean Calia also has a seat in the greater Horde council? Might as well just call us vassals now.

[Hubbl3]

If only Blizz would build up characters over multiple addons, maybe show them interacting with factions/races and establish reasons why said race or faction starts to trust the character. Ingame of course, through quests and so on. Like they did in the past. So that the player and the character grow side by side, struggle through the same stuff, help each other out and so on.

Like with Nazgrim.

Today there would be a couple of sentences in a bad book and then Nazgrim would get promoted Warchief.

Also the whole "Lightforged" feels so cheap. Why not have Calia be a regular Forsaken while still being more optimistic and hopeful through her experiences with Alonsus Faol. So that she knows what being Forsaken feels like but also has a huge positive influence with Alonsus Faol.
So that some Forsaken, after maybe growing (visible again, IN GAME) more and more annoyed with Sylvanas and her bleak view and her "they are arrows" approach have a reason to come to her other than "she is the sister of the guy who doomed us all and we really need a moncarch to tell us what to do".

Of course spice that thing up with conflict coming from other sub factions of Forsaken.

With :effort: and worldbuilding there is a good story here. But Blizz isn't doing that.

[Makorus]

I don't want someone to choose instead of me to be gay just because it's cool. It is not.

What does that even mean?

[Paraka]

So I gave it a night to mull this over, see if there was an angle Calia popping herself in a throne made sense. And the more I though about it, the more bonkers of a story this is attempting to be.

- Arthas comes home kills their king (his father), already setting the precedent to the locals to the kingdom. Kills them all off, resurrecting them into a forceful servitude. Because killing one's own father isn't exactly going to make them chant "Menethil" any time soon. That's a big betrayal.

- Then comes their reawakening, knowing nothing of their tenure under LK, only saw one person bent on redemption of their people. They lost everything, betrayed and forsaken, by their own leadership. It makes sense they set her to god mode, they had nothing else.

- They then get inducted to the Horde, finding (little) common ground with the other monsters of Azeroth. This is still no signs of a power shift.

- Then years later, after years of manipulative abuse from the Banshee, in comes Calia stage left. Any potential Forsaken player already feared her being there for leadership change considering how frequent they were for Horde players. But wait... Blizzard made assurance Calia had no interest in leading Lordaeron. She states it quite a few times, Blizzard had PR she had no interest.

- Then comes a book, where Anduin insists a non-Alliance-aligned leader to see her old and damaged home. This was... How many years? How many in-game years has it that a child like Anduin grows up, becomes king and suddenly a Menethil pops up out of the blue and wants to be their leader. After so many years of never wanting to seek redemption of her people, she looked at that shit and went, "Yeah that's so mine now?"

- Then she gets herself killed, then a non-Horde-aligned Forsaken and the body of Alliance thinks to resurrect her. Essentially owing a debt to the faction. And after, what, a couple years of war? She somehow "gets" the Forsaken? Along with Derek, a Kul Tiran through-and-through, feels OVER A DECADE OF AGONY the Forsaken has felt? And they're just going to look at this glowy unaged piece of ass and start chanting "Menethil" again?

- And this is all that they came up with after giving Lilian spotlight, giving the idea of a Desolate Council isn't entirely wiped away in ideology, and their goddess ups and nopes the fuck out? And this sounds "logical" of a move for Blizzard?

That is like a pumpkin spiced basic woman telling a homeless dude she totes knows how he feels. It's not just bad, it's sorely disconnected.

Hell, just make the Orc heritage armor a task we kill Thrall and replace him with Medan and call it a success.

EDIT: Oh, and to top it all off, Old Gods already spelling doom because of it. Sounds like some expedient levels of storytelling.

[Tharivor]

I do accept that my knowledge is limited, as I have not been playing a Forsaken for 15 years. But this is exactly the thing you are missing: Things change. Characters and lore evolve or devolve if you prefer to put it negatively.
A story like Legion or BFA with the high rez cinematics and actually connected story-telling is a new things for WoW and was unthinkable before. The game evolves and the new lore of Legion, BTS and BFA trumps whatever was said in Forsaken quest #41 in Cata. Sorry, that is just how things are.

So yes, I argue with knowledge gained from newer sources, that does not make those any less canon. And you are missunderstanding my intentions, while I take some amusement from this, it is mainly derived from the more absurd arguments I am exposed to here and the disporpotioned rages against a character who (I repeat myself here) has barely been given more then 2 minutes of dialogue. WE DO NOT KNOW if she is in constant agony because of her body actually rotting behind the nice fascade, we do not know how much she lost when she died.

All I am saying is: Have a bit of patience, allow the characters to actually be introduced before you rip them to shreds. I mean with this kind of attitude do you actually expect anyone to take this playerbase seriously? If you want to influence the writers and devs of Blizzard to actually change things the playerbase should be more constructive and less "bad writing, lol, Blizzard so stupid" (which I know you, Dickmann, are trying to be, most others are not).

Also I maintain that Calia as leader of the Forsaken could be a completely valid and interesting character. That she does not fit the picture you build from past quests only underlines the point I made above. Things change, otherwise the game world becomes stale.

The fact that you've never played Forsaken is exactly what you're missing. Contrary to the tropes and memes flying around this forum the Forsaken, like every race in this game, have their own established lore, backstory, and theme. This is not established simply through one character but through quests, roleplays, and player experiences spanning 15 years. To expect people to be happy with that being entirely thrown away and flipped 180 degrees in the space of a few weeks is ridiculous.

There is room for new lore and change, no one is denying that. In fact of all the factions the Forsaken have probably undergone the most change over time and most of us have stuck by them through that: Cataclysm, for example, provided us for the first time with an insight into what a new independent Forsaken society might look like and despite some misgivings it was accepted.

There is however a difference between change in line or evolving from factions original theme, and the literal inversion and erasure of that theme in its entirety. And contrary to your protests we do know for absolute certain where Calia stands on these themes: BTS explains her transformation and viewpoint in detail. If you are ignorant of it that's not anyone else's problem but you're own and you should probably refrain from posting about it until you are better informed.

The only possible upside of Calia is her Lordaeron link- something as Dickmann points out was already clearly present in the Forsaken since Cata. However perhaps there is some hope if Blizzard focuses on this aspect exclusively she might not do as much damage as a lot of people fear. But still that won't represent positive progress, simply a restatement of an already existing aspect of Forsaken identity., And in all likelihood, judging from Blizzard's descriptions of Calia up until now, we're far more likely to see the worst than the best case scenario.

To put things in context this is less like the Blood Elves reigniting the Sunwell or the Orcs rejecting Garrosh, and more like if Velen was replaced by Kil'jaden and he took the Draenei to join the Burning Legion, which they willingly did because it was just Velen and his evil propaganda machine that had forced them otherwise. That's how bad this could very well be.

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"May the Father lie blameless for the deeds of the son,
May the bloodied crown stay lost and forgotten"

[cocomen2]

lol @ Forsaken tears. Sylvanas was a crap leader, but because she was so edgy that makes Calia unacceptable to you. Wheres Eric Cartman licking up all your tasty tears?!

Also the whole "Lightforged" feels so cheap. Why not have Calia be a regular Forsaken while still being more optimistic and hopeful through her experiences with Alonsus Faol. So that she knows what being Forsaken feels like but also has a huge positive influence with Alonsus Faol.

If you still didnt get it, Calia is more evil than Sylvanas is, and only exist to show that utopia of LIGHT world be much worse than anti-utopia Shadow.

Calia, after light-forging cant feel pain or joy nor dream....... so my boIs be ready to cry how GOOD and KIND Sylvanas was.

(controlled by Light)

[Hubbl3]

If you still didnt get it, Calia is more evil than Sylvanas is, and only exist to show that utopia of LIGHT world be much worse than anti-utopia Shadow.

Calia, after light forging cant feel pain or joy ....... so my bois be ready to cry how GOOD and KIND Sylvanas was.

Huh? Yes, I really don't get your point. But I haven't read the entire thread, yet.

[Aucald]

While I'm not entirely enthused with Calia taking over as Forsaken, assuming she does as it currently seems likely, I'm also not so sure of the anti-Calia rationale I see most often here. Talk of the Forsaken culture "being deleted," or how the Forsaken are losing everything that defines them, etc. etc. This all strikes me as an argument of tradition - a non-acceptance of change coupled with the desire for a given status quo to remain unrealistically eternal. A *lot* has happened to the Forsaken as people since the days of WC3 or Classic to WotLK - they've been through a series of ups and downs, undergone massive social upheavals, traumas, huge cultural shifts, and even changing demographics (itself an odd notion for an undead people).

Things change, and the Forsaken are not exempt from that. Clambering for the Forsaken to remain as they were in light of all that's happened, especially in light of their abandonment by the once-beloved pillar of their society, the Banshee Queen Sylvanas, seems like an impossible request. Not all change is good change, of course, but I would say the idea of the Forsaken remaining as they always were in light of all that's happened would be the truest form of "bad writing," as the oft-repeated charge goes. The future is definitely uncertain for the Forsaken now - but that opens up a lot of unexplored potential as well. I also doubt Calia is going to be able to jump right into a leadership role with 100% support, either; a good number of Forsaken likely look upon the name "Menethil" with deserved scorn if not outright odium. One way or the other, it's going to be an interesting time.

[Mehrunes]

yes, but they also don't heal outside magic/literally sewing themselves back together, so a slow grinding campaign is also going to be extremely effective, and they've never shown any large capacity digging capabilities, so realistically the dwarves/gnomes could simply bury them with enough strategically planted charges around the undercity/under the castle itself.

But they can sew themselves back together. Which they even do in the field. And not like it's all that necessary. There are Forsaken that survived shipwrecks or even being cut in half just fine.

I know right? It's scary for them having to develop an identity outside of the one character.

Yeah, because Sylvanas is the be all, end all of the Forsaken. They totally haven't been doing evil shit that stands in direct contrast of what Calia represents even when Sylvanas was nowhere in sight, like when they were killing sleeping Druids in Ashenvale for the lols.

And yet here we are. The forsaken have no city, no land, no ruler, and its entire identity based around those concepts. This is finally a chance to do something with them that isn't the same old crap. Maybe blizzard will surprise us showing a different side to the forsaken

And how is Calia in any way, shape or form required for that?

Man, this thread is something special.

I for one am interested to see where they take the Forsaken now that they aren't tied to a single character.

They never were. Especially the post-Cata Forsaken.

Also, for those of you quitting over this, please stay away from FFXIV, we don't need your kind clogging up that community with this level of toxicity.

Competition is healthy according to capitalist theories.

[Teerack]

It seems like all the killed night elves are going to go with Calia and there will be talks with Voss and Calia in the future. They already said as well that some undead still feel loyal to the horde and some feel lost.

It seems like the set up for this will be undead humans on the horde lead by Voss and undead humans on the alliance led by Calia.

And then i could see a Dark Ranger hero class getting added where it works just like the illidari where its only elves. Undead BE Dark Rangers for the horde and Undead NE Dark Rangers for the alliance.

At least it seems likely to me since it's been so perfectly set up for it.

[Mehrunes]

Seriously this.

I don't care for Calia as a character but Forsaken haven't had an identity since Classic. They are literally just Sylvanas's tools. Now that they're not worshiping an undead elf they might actually be able to develop.
Calia likely won't instill the same zealous following as Sylvanas did. The Forsaken are more free to be what they want, and not just be cartoon bad guys now. They might actually have a culture besides worshiping Sylvanas.

Except they've been doing typical Forsaken shit without a sliver of Sylvanas in their general vicinity. The idea that the Forsaken haven't had an identity since Vanilla is flat out bogus. Just because they *gasp* shared in Sylvanas' outlook doesn't mean they had no identity or that it was all shaped by Sylvanas.

It's always good when we lose Alliance chars to neutrality / Horde. /s

Calia already made a point of pretending she's not Alliance in Before the Storm. And with Horde being an extension of Alliance now, even if she didn't pretend that, what would it change? Alliance proper, faction of Alliance's sycophants, there's barely any difference.

And tell me, what is better for a forsaken? Siding with Calia, which means someone who didn't help them till now due to not having the means to do so and circuminstances making it nigh impossible, but now is finally able to, and actually cares for them, or siding with a disgusting bitch who used them from the moment she freed, pretending she gave them freedom, but all of it was an illusion?

I'd much rather Calia to be the forsaken queen, than that bitch who values nothing but her own ass, and her bitch boi nathanos. So fucking what if Calia didn't suffer like them the same way? She suffered in seeing her own fucking brother killing her people. How ashamed would you be of your brother in her place? Or would you just show up in a group of thousands of undead and sylvanas and yell 'HEY PLEASE TAKE ME IN NOW, I STILL LOVE YOU'. No, the events in before the storm, set in motion by Anduin, are what finally gave the chance to Calia to actually help her people.

If your argument in defense of Calia is a false dichotomy between her and Sylvanas despite the latter no longer even being in the picture you have no argument. And please, Calia didn't have circumstances? Faol went in and out of the Undercity as he pleased and she has been under his tutelage pretty much since the fall of Lordaeron. She could have easily asked him to make contacts. But she didn't. By her own admission in Before the Storm she did nothing for the Forsaken until the events of that book and merely sat on her ass feeling sorry about doing nothing for them. Hell, she doesn't even offer any unique dialogue to a Forsaken Priest in Legion's Class Order Hall questline. Nothing to even remotely hint at her giving a shit about the Forsaken. Instead she only distanced herself from her past there.

"Zero connection" you guys can just not vomit stuff out of the blue? The forsaken only exist because of her brother, the forsaken started existing because of her brother, the forsaken is people from Lordaeron, humans, it's their right always, Sylvanas just was there by visit because she wanted to avenge herself and the forsaken from the scourge. Calia has no shit to do with what her brother did and still her identity even after death can't go unknown. I wanted this story and i barely can't actually believe it's really here. I was the first person here saying she is rightful Queen of Lordaeron if someday Sylvanas would stop being a forsaken leader because SHE WAS DOING so much stuff that doesn't concern the forsaken's interests and she was actually being a Lich King 2.0 and commiting genocides and she even says in the end "The horde is nothing" SHE made her OWN BED. She knew what she was saying after. She even says she only sympathized with forsaken but she has other plans. -
You can't either trust much LilianVoss she doesn't want to be a leader, it's not her damn type, Calia is the fitting. Her or Deathstalker Commander Belmont. No one seems to remember him. Now it's female leaders everywhere.

Ah, yes. She was a princess that was to be married away to some noble while having no political clout because of male preference in Lordaeron. What connection you got here. So what that the Forsaken exist only because of her brother? Is Calia supposed to get credit for the actions of Arthas? Especially in a case where the Forsaken aren't exactly remembering Arthas fondly? And trying to distance the Forsaken from Sylvanas' war is nonsensical. The Forsaken merrily talk about death to the living all the time. They were in on that because they shared Sylvanas' outlook on undeath. Trying to pretend that Sylvanas was there "by visit" is even more nonsensical because she's the one who gathered the Forsaken together, in many cases personally helping them to fully break away from the sway of the Lich King. She formed them into what they are, she formed them into a nation and she led them to securing their place in the world after she won the Civil War in the Plaguelands.

[Icydemon]

this is just so stupid....