Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Kralljin]

1) It does not allow player intervention.

If it wouldn't, we wouldn't be having this argument.

But hey, name me ONE instance where player intervention in loot distribution IS possible by another player using any in-game system.

"Yo, we trade loot if it's an greater upgrade for someone else, you okay with that?"

Trading does not qualify as loot distribution, again, it's trading.

Then what should we call it, then?
The organized sharing of spoils?

Secondly, "Just don't join that guild" is now the norm, deal with it, cuz there are no more guilds with ML.

A few minutes earlier

And I wouldn't give a flying fuck. Fuck a guild like that.

Sounds like someone should be doing some research before they join a guild, yes?

2) You didn't make fun of anything. This is just trolling.

Go ahead, trolling is against the rules, report me.

[Garymorilix]

If it wouldn't, we wouldn't be having this argument.



"Yo, we trade loot if it's an greater upgrade for someone else, you okay with that?"



Then what should we call it, then?
The organized sharing of spoils?



A few minutes earlier



Sounds like someone should be doing some research before they join a guild, yes?



Go ahead, trolling is against the rules, report me.

Loot distribution is when a system distributes loot from the BOSS to the PLAYERS.
You can't have a hand in how the distribution happens with PL.

Trading is when players decide to exchange items between each other. Gear can be exchanged too, but that gear has already been distributed by the loot distribution system with whatever resctriction on it. The distribution is already done.

With ML the loot distributor is the ML personally.
With PL the loot distributor is the automated rng system set up by Blizzard.

There is virtually zero possibility for either you, me or anyone else to influence PL, as a loot distribution system. Clear now?

Why do I have to explain shit to you like a fuckin dictionary?
I'm pretty sure you know what the difference is, you just don't care cuz as soon as you say that your whole bullshit falls apart.

I said "I wouldn't" join a guild like that, you know, hypothetically, but fortunately for me reality is all guilds must use PL.
If any guild would kick me for keeping my loot, well, I got the loot and fuck 'em. Hypothetically.

[Fayenoor]

To both of you:

Trading loot is fine. If you don't need something you can pass it on, sure, why not. Believe it or not, I always trade loot away that is not an upgrade.

Why is it so hard to get this simple fckin concept, here me out:

You trading your loot away is fine. It's your decision. It's your action.

Someone trading your loot away is so beyond wrong I don't even know why you'd want that. It's not your decision. You are a by-stander regarding your own stuff (or a chance at it).

I honestly have no fckin idea how to dumb it down for ya'll even further.
I get, you really like being handed loot for lickin' boot.
As I said, I don't.
In fact, Blizz doesn't like that either, that's why they removed ML.

Anything else you don't get?

Here's something for you to understand:
It is not your loot. There's no way for you to solo the boss. You are as important as the other 19 who was responsible for killing the boss. Raiding is a team effort. In PL, the system rolls the dice and picks the individuals who will get the loot. Under ML, ML chooses the players based on team rules. So no one is trading your loot away in ML. You never earned the loot. The raid team earned the loot. So the raid team decides who gets the loot.

It is like awarding the game ball in football. It isnt randomly rolled off. The team decides who gets it.

Let me repeat:
Raiding is a team game. Team comes before individual. So the reward should also be team based, not individual based. Easy enough you? Dont like the team? Dont like the team rules? Find another team.

[Ryuji]

There was a lot of complaints in these forums when Master Looter was removed and all raid loot was turned personal. Now, 3 raids later, what are people's opinion of the current loot system?

I still hate it. A Resto shaman healer came back yesterday and I switched to Holy loot spec instead of Ret to try and help them get stuff.

First boss, A buddy got the healer weapon but with 5 ilvls higher than his own healing weapon. He couldn't trade it.

Second boss, the healer trinket dropped for someone else, but they didn't have any healing trinkets at all so it was technically their highest ilvl healing trinket. They couldn't trade it.

Third boss, I tried to see if I could get the shield to help. I did, but it was 5 ilvls higher + a socket. I couldn't trade it.

Fourth boss onward, I got nothing(still trying to get Ashvane's tanking trinket but to no avail).

Said resto shaman got some drops but not much. One mail azerite piece was traded to them.

Also I'm the only plate user in raid. Guess how much plate drops.

[Garymorilix]

Here's something for you to understand:
It is not your loot. There's no way for you to solo the boss. You are as important as the other 19 who was responsible for killing the boss. Raiding is a team effort. In PL, the system rolls the dice and picks the individuals who will get the loot. Under ML, ML chooses the players based on team rules. So no one is trading your loot away in ML. You never earned the loot. The raid team earned the loot. So the raid team decides who gets the loot.

It is like awarding the game ball in football. It isnt randomly rolled off. The team decides who gets it.

Let me repeat:
Raiding is a team game. Team comes before individual. So the reward should also be team based, not individual based. Easy enough you? Dont like the team? Dont like the team rules? Find another team.

Here's something for you to understand:
Yes, you are right, there are 20 players who worked for the chance of loot.
If the boss goes down, everyone deserves the same chance at loot.
PL gives everyone the exact same chance to get some kind of reward.
ML removes the possibility of some people to recieve even a chance at loot based on exploitative "rules" set up by the leading few.

As you said, everybody worked to kill the boss so everybody deserves the same CHANCE at loot.
That's the whole point. And this can only be achieved by a non-biased rng system like PL.

You understand the core, yet you try to twist it to exploit others. That's actually sick.

Edit.: Your ball game analogy is horrible, but pretty accurate.
The game ball is awarded to the player with the most scores or best performance.
In your example, you shouldn't give loot to the top dps right? But to help lower dps? But yet, ML was used to "award" to big dps, instead of those that were behind because nobody gave a fuck about team progression, just ninjaing loot for look more dope.
Your analogy was pretty accurate, yes.

[Kralljin]

Why do I have to explain shit to you like a fuckin dictionary?

Because you are for some reason trying to move the goalpost from "people that trade loot are abusing the system" to "trading isn't loot distribution".

It's just another form of it, no matter how hard you try to redefine it.

[Garymorilix]

Because you are for some reason trying to move the goalpost from "people that trade loot are abusing the system" to "trading isn't loot distribution".

It's just another form of it, no matter how hard you try to redefine it.

When did I ever say trading loot is abusing the system?

Okay, I'm done, have your report and begone. I have clearly defined points that you intentionally don't address, you just come back with some trolling bullshit trying to twist words.
But twisting words only works on someone who had no clear stance. Learn to fckin talk, boy, then take a stand.

[Kralljin]

When did I ever say trading loot is abusing the system?

You and your raid use peer pressure to get around the safety mechanism of the system. This is the problem here.

Reads like an accusation of abusing the system to me.

[Garymorilix]

Reads like an accusation of abusing the system to me.

When was Peer Pressure part of the system?

It's like saying sucking the professors dick for better grades is "abusing the system". I'm pretty sure sucking the professors dick is not part of any established grading system.

Getting around the system and abusing it are two different things.

You look native english to me, you should know what your words mean.

[Kralljin]

It's like saying sucking the professors dick for better grades is "abusing the system". I'm pretty sure sucking the professors dick is not part of any established grading system.

Actions such as these are at least in most countries / states punishable by law to my knowledge.

So yeah, they're not abusing the system, but they're doing something illegal.

[Fayenoor]

Here's something for you to understand:
Yes, you are right, there are 20 players who worked for the chance of loot.
If the boss goes down, everyone deserves the same chance at loot.
PL gives everyone the exact same chance to get some kind of reward.
ML removes the possibility of some people to recieve even a chance at loot based on exploitative "rules" set up by the leading few.

As you said, everybody worked to kill the boss so everybody deserves the same CHANCE at loot.
That's the whole point. And this can only be achieved by a non-biased rng system like PL.

You understand the core, yet you try to twist it to exploit others. That's actually sick.

Everyone has the same chance. Personal biases that you speak of in ML are flaw of the master looter. He is corrupt. It is not a flaw of the master looter system.

See the difference is I think for the team, you think for the individual. This is why guilds are dying in BFA so faster than other expacs. Because people have stopped thinking about the guild, they only think about themselves. They only think about their loot, their progress.

Personal loot promotes mercenary raiding - loyalty to yourself and not loyalty to the guild. Find a group which is progressed higher, get loot, wait for them to hit a wall. Then find the next higher progressed guild. Trial with them, get loot (personal loot yay). They hit a wall, move up again.

E.g. guilds who are 3/8M working on Ashvane will easily recruit 8/8 AOTC players. So the AOTC guy can join the 3/8M guild, run with them for a couple of weeks. Now you are 3/8M without any effort. Get loot from first 3 because PL gives everyone equal chance. New guild stuck on Ashvane. So find a guild who is 5/8M.
if you are 3/8M, you can easily jump to a 5/8M.. Rinse and repeat. With PL, you can hop skip and jump to CE without putting an effort on any boss. Just piggyback on the guilds who have actually put the effort.

With ML, most raid teams will block such mercenary raiders by giving critical loot to more deserving guildies who have wiped longer on the boss.

[Garymorilix]

Actions such as these are at least in most countries / states punishable by law to my knowledge.

So yeah, they're not abusing the system, but they're doing something illegal.

I'm pretty sure ninja looting was "illegal" too, that's why blizzard took all those ninja reports into mind when they removed the fuck out of ML.

Fits the theme then. ML is no different than suckin dick.

[Kralljin]

I'm pretty sure ninja looting was "illegal" too, that's why blizzard took all those ninja reports into mind when they removed the fuck out of ML.

Ninja looting was in fact forbidden, so yeah, they're consistent.

Following the PL example, the solution for these simple quid pro quo schemes would be the removal of the entire grading system and randomnly award people with grades.
I mean, they participated in the test, after all, didn't they?

[Garymorilix]

Everyone has the same chance. Personal biases that you speak of in ML are flaw of the master looter. He is corrupt. It is not a flaw of the master looter system.

See the difference is I think for the team, you think for the individual. This is why guilds are dying in BFA so faster than other expacs. Because people have stopped thinking about the guild, they only think about themselves. They only think about their loot, their progress.

Personal loot promotes mercenary raiding - loyalty to yourself and not loyalty to the guild. Find a group which is progressed higher, get loot, wait for them to hit a wall. Then find the next higher progressed guild. Trial with them, get loot (personal loot yay). They hit a wall, move up again.

E.g. guilds who are 3/8M working on Ashvane will easily recruit 8/8 AOTC players. So the AOTC guy can join the 3/8M guild, run with them for a couple of weeks. Now you are 3/8M without any effort. Get loot from first 3 because PL gives everyone equal chance. New guild stuck on Ashvane. So find a guild who is 5/8M.
if you are 3/8M, you can easily jump to a 5/8M.. Rinse and repeat. With PL, you can hop skip and jump to CE without putting an effort on any boss. Just piggyback on the guilds who have actually put the effort.

With ML, most raid teams will block such mercenary raiders by giving critical loot to more deserving guildies who have wiped longer on the boss.

So which one is it?

Everyone deserves the same chance at loot or "giving critical loot to more deserving guildies who have wiped longer on the boss"?

These statements are mutually exclusive.

You don't think "for the team", you think for the "in-group".
In-group in your instance is your friends/raid buddies.
And at this point, you should already see the problem in everything you say.

What PL is is an equally fair chance for every single person to gain loot. Can't get any more fair than that. You simply can't argue that.
You may not like that, but don't try to represent your distaste by calling it "bad". It's just more fair than old ML (even GL was fairer than ML).

What do you do with a corrupt leader? You remove him? Okay, but then what if the next leader is corrupt? Remove him? Okay, what about the next?
I'll tell you what you do:
You find the root of it, whatever enabled them to become corrupt in the first place and remove that. Boom, no more corrupt leaders. Simple right? Get it now?

- - - Updated - - -

Ninja looting was in fact forbidden, so yeah, they're consistent.

Following the PL example, the solution for these simple quid pro quo schemes would be the removal of the entire grading system and randomnly award people with grades.
I mean, they participated in the test, after all, didn't they?

3rd time reported for trolling.

I know you know what the point of my analogy was, yet you look at the analogy, take a different aspect of it and try to retro-actively compare that to the original topic.

See, boy, it doesn't work. If you wanna look smart, stop talking. You're word twisting bullshit doesn't work, cuz I know what i'm talking about.
All you do is troll to get a response out of me. You will, but you ain't winning, boy.

[Fayenoor]

You don't think "for the team", you think for the "in-group".
In-group in your instance is your friends/raid buddies.
And at this point, you should already see the problem in everything you say.

That would be your experience. Guild who do that always die. Like I said, keep believing in the worse in people and run a police state. That's paranoia. And you are entitled to it.

[Garymorilix]

That would be your experience. Guild who do that always die. Like I said, keep believing in the worse in people and run a police state. That's paranoia. And you are entitled to it.

So I guess communism is the greatest thing ever too, only those corrupt communist leaders ruined it for all of us.

Nah.

Question is, why do you actually have a problem with me trying to treat raiders equally? Why do you advocate so much for SOMEONE to be the god-king that decides the fate of the loot, instead of it being randomly distributed with the same chance between the people who are qualified for it?
The PL system is literally incapable of bias.
Is it jealousy? Prestige? Pride? Why is that bad?

[Kralljin]

I know you know what the point of my analogy was, yet you look at the analogy, take a different aspect of it and try to retro-actively compare that to the original topic.

No, it just perfectly highlights what's wrong with your analogy.

Your analogy is in fact an illegal action, whereas having people trade loot is condened by the system or its rules.
And back when ML was a thing, actually abusing this system to an extreme degree (=Ninjalooting) it also was against the rules as stated by Blizzard.

See, boy, it doesn't work.

The only thing that doesn't work here are your analogies, there is little thought put into them and are just trying to be edgy for the sake of it.

Question is, why do you actually have a problem with me trying to treat raiders equally?

Because people aren't the same, might not bring the same performance or cannot make equal use out of the rewards.

Especially during progression it's just a means to an end to clear the content, randomly distributing loot doesn't help there, you want to place it where it helps to achieve that goal as best as possible.
"The system" doesn't know where that is, but responsible leadership knows that.

You don't want that the good stuff lands on the guy that can barely pull their own weight, yet PL simply gives it to them "because it's fair", it's only fair if your sole criteria is "has tagged the boss".

[Garymorilix]

No, it just perfectly highlights what's wrong with your analogy.

Your analogy is in fact an illegal action, whereas having people trade loot is condened by the system or its rules.
And back when ML was a thing, actually abusing this system to an extreme degree (=Ninjalooting) it also was against the rules as stated by Blizzard.



The only thing that doesn't work here are your analogies, there is little thought put into them and are just trying to be edgy for the sake of it.



Because people aren't the same, might not bring the same performance or cannot make equal use out of the rewards.

Especially during progression it's just a means to an end to clear the content, randomly distributing loot doesn't help there, you want to place it where it helps to achieve that goal as best as possible.
"The system" doesn't know where that is, but responsible leadership knows that.

You don't want that the good stuff lands on the guy that can barely pull their own weight, yet PL simply gives it to them "because it's fair", it's only fair if your sole criteria is "has tagged the boss".

Why the fuck do you have a "guy that barely pulls their own weight" in your super hard progression? Your whole bs falls apart the moment you go progressing like that.

You think yourself so above of others, link us your char. Show me what you're packin, boy.

[Volitar]

Dumb change that makes people jump through hoops to still enact master loot.

[Kralljin]

You think yourself so above of others, link us your char. Show me what you're packin, boy.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...moore/kralljin

Seeing that Banned Avatar rarely felt so statisfying.