Forgive and “not” forget.

[Thage]

It's just a repeat of SoO where the alliance is like "don't do that again or else!" but this time they are excusing a genocide. They will absolutely forget, just like they did forget this time. We can also see they are setting up Shandris to be the leader of the night elves after they kill of Tyrande because Shandris is a good human puppet leader.

More accurately, they're setting Shandris up to act as a foil for Tyrande like Fandral used to, only this time it's Tyrande who's jaded and unwilling to put stock into the Alliance's usefulness for her people (albeit justifiably) while Shandris is the moderate-minded one who wants to focus on the future while keeping a wary eye on the Horde (justifably).

While the game is trying to suggest Tyrande's a dangerous extremist, I don't think either philosophy is wrong in and of itself (which is where the Fandral analogy breaks down a bit, I admit). The Horde, at Sylvanas's orders, nearly exterminated the night elves and certainly caused massive civilian casualties (if the ingame representation of the burning of Teldrassil is a litmus to go by, a fraction of their population survived the War of Thorns, with direct allusions made to the Scourging of Quel'Thalas, which itself saw 90% of the high elf population wiped out) and really hasn't done anything to make up for it that we've seen or been told about. At the same time, a big part of 8.2.5 and 8.3 is about breaking the cycle of reprisals that makes up the status quo for Alliance-Horde relations, since that's not really working out long-term for anyone except people with a vested interest in keeping both factions depleted and weakened.

So unlike Moira's weak attempt at 'both sides,' the real 'both sides' here is that both Tyrande and Shandris are right, and it's hard for me to fault either of them even if my personal preference leans toward "Let's just get it over with," since the writers have shown they can't handle a faction war plot with any grace or nuance; BFA made the last season of Game of Thrones look good.

[Mehrunes]

False. If the Alliance truly won that war, they could have done all that. And many of the Alliance leadership in the room at the time wanted to do exactly that, as expressed by Jaina who was rather upset that Varian elected not to.

Anyhow, whatever dude. To me it's pretty clear that the message of that cinematic was that the Alliance were in a position to destroy the Horde and that Varian chose not to based on the philosophy espoused by his son. If you want to insist on choosing your own interpretation based on what suits your narrative I don't really think that there is anything I can say to change your mind, so it would be pointless to even bother trying.

There's a pretty colossal difference between "can" and "want". Jaina wanting things doesn't mean she could have done it. Vide the time she wanted to hurt Thalen, yet all of her magical might could not achieve that result. So trying to support the notion that Alliance could have done so with a handful of their members expressing the desire to do so is illogical and beyond.

[KaPe]

There's a pretty colossal difference between "can" and "want". Jaina wanting things doesn't mean she could have done it. Vide the time she wanted to hurt Thalen, yet all of her magical might could not achieve that result. So trying to support the notion that Alliance could have done so with a handful of their members expressing the desire to do so is illogical and beyond.

You had MoP Wrathion fully expecting the Alliance to wipe out the Horde. He admits it would be a bloody war, but they'd ultimately win. Sure, he's not the ultimate authority on truth, but he's not stupid, either.

And if you want Doylist instead of Watsonian - pre-WoD Blizzcon had (whatever Blue it was) personally stating that the Alliance is the only superpower on Azeroth. You can try to twist the meaning of that, but I'm pretty sure it shows that, yes, the Alliance were stronger and could have followed up on their threat. Otherwise, you are claiming that part of the Horde, post civil war, is stronger than the whole Alliance, which is bonkers.

'Course, the Horde recovered within a single expansion and were ready to start shit up again in Ashran, so all of that is meaningless anyway.

[Raelbo]

There's a pretty colossal difference between "can" and "want". Jaina wanting things doesn't mean she could have done it. Vide the time she wanted to hurt Thalen, yet all of her magical might could not achieve that result. So trying to support the notion that Alliance could have done so with a handful of their members expressing the desire to do so is illogical and beyond.

As I said, to me, looking at the big picture, and without a massive faction bias, it seemed pretty clear that the Alliance were indeed in a position to follow through. It wasn't just about what Jaina said. I am sure I could spend all day throwing other bits and pieces to corroborate this view, like Wrathion's reaction after the events of SoO, which you'd just hand wave away.

I am well aware of the fact that no one "wins" any argument against you on this forum so I am not going to bother trying. The simple fact is that everyone has their own subjective take on things, and this is mine. If you want to pretend that your opinion is objectively superior, you're welcome to it.

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Nah i would have listened to what you said. But if there was anything like “give them land and hope that they reform into a non-genocidal society” then you better not waste your breath because orcs never reform. Thrall tried to “fix” them and ended up leaving the Horde in disappointment.

It's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. Alliance believes that the Orcs and the Horde will never be more than monsters. Alliance treats the Horde with contempt and enacts pre-emptively punishes the Horde in order to keep them in check. Unsurprisingly the Horde retailiates, thus validating the Alliance stance.

It's a retarded cycle that could be broken, but won't since faction conflict is placed, by Blizzard, at the heart of the story.

[Mehrunes]

You had MoP Wrathion fully expecting the Alliance to wipe out the Horde. He admits it would be a bloody war, but they'd ultimately win. Sure, he's not the ultimate authority on truth, but he's not stupid, either.

Wrathion's plan to defeat the Legion via the Iron Horde brought the Legion here after we were weakened fighting his glorious Iron Horde. Wrathion is a bona fide moron. In Wrathion's brilliant mind it'd take Alliance a year to take Thunder Bluff and Thunder Bluff isn't even most defensible Horde city. Undercity is. And we've seen what happens when Alliance (at much healthier state than they were prior to SoO) goes sightseeing in Lordaeron at the start of BfA.

And if you want Doylist instead of Watsonian - pre-WoD Blizzcon had (whatever Blue it was) personally stating that the Alliance is the only superpower on Azeroth. You can try to twist the meaning of that, but I'm pretty sure it shows that, yes, the Alliance were stronger and could have followed up on their threat. Otherwise, you are claiming that part of the Horde, post civil war, is stronger than the whole Alliance, which is bonkers.

They released that statement shortly after SoO was released and after that kept saying things that went against that notion like how Horde was so united against Garrosh that even stark majority of Orcs rose up against him because of Thrall's agitation and whatnot. And even before that the notion of Alliance being a superpower didn't really click with all of what came before SoO. Before the Horde imploded in a civil war the Alliance was getting beaten on almost every front. They lost non-human members of their strongest army to Sylvanas, they lost most of their fleet to Garrosh's krakens, they lost Theramore and everything they sent to reinforce it (including many experienced generals) to Garrosh's mana bomb. So on and so forth. And their beating lasted for nearly three years in lore.

Plus, like I already said earlier on in this thread in an earlier reply to @Raelbo, the WotLK-MoP war ended with Alliance officially ceding territory to the Horde. That's not exactly what a victor does. Especially the kind of a victor that could have annihilated their opponent if they wished so.

As I said, to me, looking at the big picture, and without a massive faction bias, it seemed pretty clear that the Alliance were indeed in a position to follow through. It wasn't just about what Jaina said. I am sure I could spend all day throwing other bits and pieces to corroborate this view, like Wrathion's reaction after the events of SoO, which you'd just hand wave away.

I am well aware of the fact that no one "wins" any argument against you on this forum so I am not going to bother trying. The simple fact is that everyone has their own subjective take on things, and this is mine. If you want to pretend that your opinion is objectively superior, you're welcome to it.

When you have to dishonestly resort from the get to fallacious and defensive BS like your second paragraph instead of making actual arguments, gee, I wonder why would you be unable to "win" an argument on this topic with me.

And please. I already pointed out the big picture to you in an earlier reply that you happily ignored. Alliance was losing the war on multiple fronts because Varian overextended like mad. They lost non-human part of the 7th Legion, their most elite force. They lost most of their fleet. They lost their biggest base in Kalimdor that allowed them to alleviate pressure from the Night Elven territory (and we've seen numerous times what happens to Night Elves when they are robbed of such help). They lost an entire kingdom of Gilneas. Their hold on Lordaeron continent evaporated.

And most of that was without Blood Elves or Forsaken lifting a finger to help in the war, since Sylvanas holed up in Lordaeron after she secured its borders in 4.0 and Lor'themar didn't do even that much against the Alliance.

Alliance's biggest victory in the war was the skirmish in Krasarang in the scenario where Varian had to school Tyrande on the basics of combat. Where the Alliance pushed Orcs out of some ruins. The Horde's biggest victory eradicated Alliance's presence in central Kalimdor, killed a boatload of Alliance reinforcement from all over Azeroth and beyond and killed numerous veteran generals of the Alliance, with the following sea battle nearly decimating their navy. The Alliance and Horde performance in the war are not even remotely comparable.

And like I also already pointed out to you, without Malfurion and Velen present in the Underhold the Alliance leaders gathered at Garrosh's downfall were badly outmatched by the Horde ones. Meaning that the Alliance's position to "follow through" is a flop from the get go, because they'd get slaughtered, leaving the Alliance headless. Before they'd even get an opportunity to even relay the information to the rest of their forces that they are still at war with Vol'jin's forces, compounding the headlessness problem even further. And that's with Sylvanas already merrily raising humans in Orgrimmar to bolster the rebellions troops before Alliance even tried anything.

Not to mention (for the third time) that Alliance ceded multiple zones to the Horde after that war. A true sign of their strength. With the best example being that the Horde kept even Gilneas, leaving an entire Alliance race effectively homeless and forcing them to squat in Darnassus. But I guess the Worgen simply like it that way. Which is precisely why Genn was still salty about losing his kingdom at the start of Legion and then complained to Anduin about not having a home and how Gilneas is occupied by the Forsaken in Before the Storm.

Meanwhile all you've provided is Wrathion's commentary. A ~2 year old whose grand strategy to protect Azeroth from Legion after his meddling in the war backfired across the board and not only weakened Azerothian forces by making them fight his idiotic Iron Horde, but outright brought the Legion here. After which he did nothing to actually help against the Legion. Truly a master strategist you got here. There's totally an omniscient narrator level of validity to his words. If only there was more that could be done against such a strong argument other than "handwaving it away"

And since you want to act patronizing while providing no evidence to support your position so far in this thread, even in the posts on this topic you addressed at other people where you haven't dodged your way out of the argument, as if not having any proof magically validated you or something: If you want to pretend that your position that you'd have to spend all day gathering "bits and pieces" to construct has any validity even in the subjective sense, go ahead. You have my permission to do so.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Well, that become true after Teldrasil when Blizzard decided to validate the "evil Horde" meme you guys like so muck. But even then, a refusal even to acknowledge less crimes against the Horde still undermines the legitimacy of "all blame to the Horde".

I mean, pre-the burning of the tree, the destruction and crimes are still stacked up on one side of that line.. which would be fine if people didn't magically forget that, or pretend the Horde are always victims etc.. I mean what, when people shit talk the past Alliance, its always "they were racist against BEs in WC3 (one guy)" and then 'Camp Tuarajoooooooo"

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False. If the Alliance truly won that war, they could have done all that. And many of the Alliance leadership in the room at the time wanted to do exactly that, as expressed by Jaina who was rather upset that Varian elected not to.

Anyhow, whatever dude. To me it's pretty clear that the message of that cinematic was that the Alliance were in a position to destroy the Horde and that Varian chose not to based on the philosophy espoused by his son. If you want to insist on choosing your own interpretation based on what suits your narrative I don't really think that there is anything I can say to change your mind, so it would be pointless to even bother trying.

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Because I have informed my narrative based on the facts presented, rather than allowed my interpretation of the facts to be biased by the narrative I want to push.

The Alliance didn't "win" any war, as it was interrupted by Garrosh. You're using circular logic...

If you want to pretend like the Alliance had the Horde by the throats, then why didn't they "end them" in WoD, when more fighting occurred? Oh yeah, because they didn't. It was a false narrative. Thats not a win. In no way, shape or form is that a win for the Alliance. It was all losses up until SoO, and instead of actually win and take the city and dismantle the threat of their constant enemy... they helped them take their city back.

I mean, you want to pretend like its just my wacky narrative here, but thats really just your head canon. Those circumstance don't reflect any type of real life counterpart. No one would call that a win outside of people that want to use that as some talking point.

Following the Siege of Orgrimmar, King Varian and the newly appointed Warchief Vol'jin declared an end to open hostilities, so long as both sides uphold honor. However, despite their leader's peaceful intentions and repeated decisive victories when fighting along-side each other during the war in Draenor, tensions persisted between the two sides. The armies clashed in Ashran where both sides believed the other had a super-weapon that they intended to use on them.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alliance-Horde_war


Does this really sound like the Alliance won, or conquered anything at all? This is 100% an agreement to stop fighting, after the Alliance Helped the main Horde defeat Garrosh. The Varian line was lipservice and an empty threat. The only way this would make any sense is if you're RPing as a Garrosh loyalist...

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I mean, "constantly" would refer to pre WoW stuff aswell. As for ZA, that's my point, they were painted as the villain for... wanting vengeance against the High Elves and the Alliance who took their land from them, in addition to the Horde who now allied themselves with those same elves. Interestingly enough, the Revantusk also swore vengeance against these elves, yet they seem to haven no problem being aligned with the same faction as they are.

ZG is weird since that's the Gurubashi Tribe, not the Gurubashi Empire. The Gurubashi Tribe is a remnant group of the Gurubashi Empire, just like the Shatterspear, Darkspear, Skullsplitter, Bloodscalp and so on. As I said, you have a fair point there, since they do worship Hakkar. They turned to worshipping the loa of blood because they were starving as a result of the Night Elves' actions, though. Not to mention that they sought help from all loa, Hakkar is just the one who answered. But, again, even those who showed dissent in the rise of the Hakkari and hid themselves, only to join the Zandalari in the rebellion, are seen as villainous. You go into their land and kill them because, well they're ugly trolls, I guess.

About the Horde's ceding of territory not being seen in game, well, the Alliance is still attacking Durotar and Mulgore aswell. It sucks that it isn't reflected or mentioned in-game but the Horde did retreat from Ashenvale.

I get what you're saying, but really, most of the time "bad guy" refers to whoever is on the losing side. You brought up the Revantusk, and the Amani could have gone that route instead. There is no "correct" way to handle land stealing. The HEs were exiled and needed somewhere to go, is what I recall. Did they try to make peace with Trolls there? I don't know.

That it is never shown in game is part of the complaints here. I understand many of the books exist to tell more, but not everyone wants to read side books to understand what is happening in game, especially since there are many, with various writers etc. I often end up reading recaps online, but as someone who now mains Alliance, its not fun to see so many losses with very few changes or wins shown in game. Its frustrating.

[Powerogue]

It's like the system was flawed and is now being changed to avoid this BS again. And -again-, do you honestly think that open rebellion would serve anything at all? "Oh, you don't like me Mr. <Insert class here> you die now, and then I res you as slave ex-dee". Not saying it'll be easy for her to do, but she does have a lot of those, like most of Undercity, some of the most underhanded people (faction-wise) in the game. Yeah no. Open rebellion is fucking stupid, oath or no oath. Self-preservation for a greater good down the road.

To say nothing of how most members of the rebellion tried to reason with Sylvanas or just peace out and leave and she hunted them down anyway. "We don't get to hide" indeed. If there's one good thing that came out of this faction war it's the death of the Blood Oath.

On the main post topic, I definitely think most of the other faction leaders are accepting this too readily, though it's worth keeping in mind most of them didn't have their homelands invaded. It's understandable that the night elves in particular would stand out as not being willing to go along with Anduin's wishes, but that conversely means having the other faction leaders more open to the idea. Even so, they could stand to rephrase some of those to better reflect the race leaders' histories.

I could see Moira for example bringing up the dark iron's history of seeking conquest but turning over a new leaf, hoping that the council tempers the Horde in the same way the Council of the Three Hammers tempered them.

Velen could bring up how his people were less present in this war due to the Argus Campaign but will lend resources to the night elf rebuilding effort.

[Combatbutler]

I get what you're saying, but really, most of the time "bad guy" refers to whoever is on the losing side. You brought up the Revantusk, and the Amani could have gone that route instead. There is no "correct" way to handle land stealing. The HEs were exiled and needed somewhere to go, is what I recall. Did they try to make peace with Trolls there? I don't know.

The two groups hated each other from the get go the elves landed in the eastern kingdoms, which were pretty much entirely troll lands at that point in time and as such were harassed for years, until they traveled north and build Silvermoon on a holy troll site, which brought the amani truly down on them. The trolls attacked them in full force, outnumbering them ten to one, the elves won using magic and carved out the original borders of Quel'thalas, by setting up the runestones. The trolls retreated but continued raids for thousands of years, while plotting their revenge.

Striking several thousand years later,after the Zandalari helped them staring the troll wars to drive the elves out and get their land back, while the humans to the south slowly build their first nation on troll land, after pretty much sitting on their hands for almost their entire history of roughly 16k years, while the trolls were occupied with the elves in the north.

The elves and humans then work together beat the trolls into submission for good and the humans grab almost the entire troll territory for themselves.


In essence the trolls just didn't want others in their territory and got slapped into oblivion because of it. So yeah while the trolls were more aggressive, they were still defending their territory, while humans and elves wanted their turf for themselves.

[Beloren]

Tyrande is wrong not to give peace a chance at all, and it's not the first time she and her people have experienced genocide.

It's one thing if the perpatrors are evil demons that will never relenet, it's a very different thing if they are people who want to do better and have changed their ways.

she should factor that in and be able to show mercy to those who want change so the blood shed can end, while being the hammer of justice on all who continue to desire war and destruction.

She is a high priestess afterall not a 40 something year old who doesn't understand war and love.

Please, she is being unreasonable here.

And mercy is never a bad thing fi the person is truly turning a new leaf... sometimes you just have to believe or take a leap of faith in your gut instincts.

the problem with warcraft is such things are meaningless because the devs keep changing their mind, so even if you do, they could turn around in 10,0 and have a nother faction war again. it's just too damn inconsistent to reliably take any stance.

[Maxilian]

To be fair, i do think that this "Alliance" will fail, but most likely thanks to the Alliance and not the Horde, i mean... pretty sure Sylvanas last words will come back to haunt them

[Soon-TM]

I just hope for another world threat, where the horde could use it to backstab and try to assassinate Anduin.

I'm sorry m8, only Alliance is allowed to attack the other faction in the midst of an ongoing apocalypse.

[Halyon]

To say nothing of how most members of the rebellion tried to reason with Sylvanas or just peace out and leave and she hunted them down anyway. "We don't get to hide" indeed. If there's one good thing that came out of this faction war it's the death of the Blood Oath.

I completely forgot the whole thing with Baine, but yeah, prime steak example of why opposing her openly was a bad move. God I failed in my tiredness. xD

[Zachsophone]

The Alliance will get shafted again with the ending of the war plot, like it has every other time. Horde gets their once every 4 years genocide no fallout card and Blizzard has the Alliance sue for peace. Get ready for another Alliance city burned and people butchered on 10.0 . Be ready to be told that this time we will make them pay and for it ending with the Horde throwing one person under the bus and get away consequence free again.

You guys realize that no body actually died right? Y'all are takin this a bit seriously don't you think?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

The two groups hated each other from the get go the elves landed in the eastern kingdoms, which were pretty much entirely troll lands at that point in time and as such were harassed for years, until they traveled north and build Silvermoon on a holy troll site, which brought the amani truly down on them. The trolls attacked them in full force, outnumbering them ten to one, the elves won using magic and carved out the original borders of Quel'thalas, by setting up the runestones. The trolls retreated but continued raids for thousands of years, while plotting their revenge.

Striking several thousand years later,after the Zandalari helped them staring the troll wars to drive the elves out and get their land back, while the humans to the south slowly build their first nation on troll land, after pretty much sitting on their hands for almost their entire history of roughly 16k years, while the trolls were occupied with the elves in the north.

The elves and humans then work together beat the trolls into submission for good and the humans grab almost the entire troll territory for themselves.


In essence the trolls just didn't want others in their territory and got slapped into oblivion because of it. So yeah while the trolls were more aggressive, they were still defending their territory, while humans and elves wanted their turf for themselves.

Part of he issue is that .. ALL land was effectively Troll lands, and they really aren't the sharing type. Thats sort of why I don't necessarily blame Thrall and co for escaping their prison (even though thats what they deserved) and running away to Durotar. LIke, their options are really only be slaves/food or fight for a space.

[Mehrunes]

To say nothing of how most members of the rebellion tried to reason with Sylvanas or just peace out and leave and she hunted them down anyway. "We don't get to hide" indeed. If there's one good thing that came out of this faction war it's the death of the Blood Oath.

No they didn't. Baine considered leaving. That's all. And their attempts at reasoning with Sylvanas constituted of nothing more than limp wristed protests while offering no alternative solutions to what she was doing. Best example being Saurfang simply forgetting how to speak after Sylvanas made a counterargument against his whining about the Blight.

I'm sorry m8, only Alliance is allowed to attack the other faction in the midst of an ongoing apocalypse.

With no repercussions, no apology from their leaders and the writers pretending it never even happened no less (and instead blaming the Horde for that down the road).

[Aresk]

I'm sorry m8, only Alliance is allowed to attack the other faction in the midst of an ongoing apocalypse.

You should let Garrosh know, as he seemed to miss the memo in Twilight Highlands when pretty much the exact same scenario happened in reverse.

[Mehrunes]

You should let Garrosh know, as he seemed to miss the memo in Twilight Highlands when pretty much the exact same scenario happened in reverse.

The war was already ongoing at that point.

[Aresk]

The war was already ongoing at that point.

Sure, and if the quote was about attacking in peacetime, I wouldn't have brought it up. It was about attacking during an ongoing apocalypse. Garrosh had a separate goal from attacking Alliance ships. He spotted Alliance ships. He sent his air support to attack Alliance ships. He lost his zeppelins due to the attack, causing his expedition to crash (albeit from dragons and not from the other faction in this instance). He still was willing to jeopardize his mission to attack the other faction during an ongoing apocalypse.

Was Gary "morally allowed" to make this attack? Sure, there was a war going on. Genn and Rodgers were in the midst of a...I'm not really sure what to call the state of Alliance and Horde during the time (this whole "Fourth War" really makes that ambiguous for me, particularly given that Ashran occurred during the same period of "peace")? But both parties acted rashly, risked failing their objective, and prioritized attacking the enemy over dealing with a world-wide threat.

[Feanoro]

Tyrande is wrong not to give peace a chance at all, and it's not the first time she and her people have experienced genocide.

It's one thing if the perpatrors are evil demons that will never relenet, it's a very different thing if they are people who want to do better and have changed their ways.

she should factor that in and be able to show mercy to those who want change so the blood shed can end, while being the hammer of justice on all who continue to desire war and destruction.

She is a high priestess afterall not a 40 something year old who doesn't understand war and love.

Please, she is being unreasonable here.

And mercy is never a bad thing fi the person is truly turning a new leaf... sometimes you just have to believe or take a leap of faith in your gut instincts.

the problem with warcraft is such things are meaningless because the devs keep changing their mind, so even if you do, they could turn around in 10,0 and have a nother faction war again. it's just too damn inconsistent to reliably take any stance.

Yada yada. Tyrande and the whole Alliance have given more chances than is sane already. The Horde has "changed its ways" until the next bloodthirsty idiot screams "FER DA HERD!" and they mindlessly and gleefully follow for a chance to kill everything that moves. All we have right now for proof they're turning a new leaf is a few guys saying so. Remember how the rebels were supposed to be vastly outnumbered? Or how Sylvie still has loyalists in the shadows?

[VladlTutushkin]

Tyrande is wrong not to give peace a chance at all, and it's not the first time she and her people have experienced genocide.

It's one thing if the perpatrors are evil demons that will never relenet, it's a very different thing if they are people who want to do better and have changed their ways.

she should factor that in and be able to show mercy to those who want change so the blood shed can end, while being the hammer of justice on all who continue to desire war and destruction.

She is a high priestess afterall not a 40 something year old who doesn't understand war and love.

Please, she is being unreasonable here.

And mercy is never a bad thing fi the person is truly turning a new leaf... sometimes you just have to believe or take a leap of faith in your gut instincts.

the problem with warcraft is such things are meaningless because the devs keep changing their mind, so even if you do, they could turn around in 10,0 and have a nother faction war again. it's just too damn inconsistent to reliably take any stance.

What are you talking about? She tried peace before and Horde came down on her with genocide. No person, no matter how wise will forgive that. And Horde didnt even payed her any reparations, didnt left the land they occupied (aka Ashenvale and part of Darkshore) and didnt even asked forgivness wile honoring Saurfang who organized that whole war. So basically you expect her to “give them a chance” without them offering ANYTHING to earn her trust. Peace is a two ways road, Horde should be willing to do their part if they want peace but they just expect it. She cant even resettle her people because Horde will just attack them again few years down the road or so it seems now, Council or no Council if somebody “does a Palpatine” and remember - warriors of the Horde gleefuly invaded and slaughtered her people during WoT.