[Spoilers] He's Home

[cparle87]

If only I knew in advance you were going to use most of world's straw to construct this colossal straw-man against people criticizing BfA in general - despite the fact that the person you were replying here to construct this gotcha is among them and simply was making an ineffective and very self-aware and non-hypocritical gotcha of their own there - and @Super Dickmann in particular (which you did because you can't ever handle WoW's story being criticized and always try to contort yourself to excuse and defend it no matter what as if Blizzard kami-sama was infallible) I'd have stockpiled on straw myself to benefit from the giant shift in supply and demand. Please give people a heads up the next time.

Trying to rationalize and hypothesize how something in the lore could possibly make sense when things are unclear = bad.
Not even bothering to try to understand and just assume the writing is bad = good.

Am I getting it right?

There really is no point trying to talk to you or Dickmann, since whenever you're questioned you simply throw around ad hominem insults and accusations of logical fallacies.

You've made it perfectly clear you're not actually interested in the story and what actually happens. Just twisting whatever you happen to glance at into some twisted fanfiction caricature. The fact OP was able to turn one screenshot of Baine in Stormwind into this mess is evidence of that.

[Powerogue]

Trying to rationalize and hypothesize how something in the lore could possibly make sense when things are unclear = bad.
Not even bothering to try to understand and just assume the writing is bad = good.

Am I getting it right?

On this forum, absolutely.

Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way.

Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer.

[cparle87]

On this forum, absolutely.

Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way.

Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer.

Wow. I was in an argument with Dickman a few weeks ago over the Taurajo/banishing tauren incident for almost a week back and forth in some thread. Trying to get myself into Baine's head and throwing out ideas for why he did what he did. (My prevailing theory was going on the offensive against the Alliance when your civilian populace is in need of aid due to the hurts of the Cataclysm didn't sit right with Baine) And you nailed him and guys like him on the head better than I ever did. Mind if I use you as my sig?

[Super Dickmann]

@cparle87

Far be it from me to interrupt your group therapy but I do take offense to not caring about the lore, if I didn't, I wouldn't despise BFA so much, whereas on the other hand, people who know as little as possible about the Forsaken or the Horde are the ones who most enjoy consuming it.

Take @Powerogue and Calia having no basis in her motive or appeal in being a Menethil despite not just the direct position of the text on every turn, but this being the widespread position of virtually all of her support in the topic on this on the front page. Unless you also think that Weatherwax, Tenebra, etc. are also toxic or hateful or whatever buzzword is in vogue right now when they make the same argument on Calia that I made last page. This despite both Tenebra and I, being in totally different parts of the fandom and disagreeing on virtually everything preference-wise both predicted the advance of the plot with extremely high accuracy while you're barely in the know about even the characters you back, let alone those you dislike.

[Aucald]

People often try to paint their opinions of the story as objective fact or the state of the story itself, allowing zero room for other interpretations or ideas as to how the story is going or where it is leading. I think it's fine to dislike the story being told, especially if you wanted something else, but it's also fine to enjoy it for what it is and delight in seeing the status quo change as new events come to the fore. Take for example Baine, a character I don't personally like and often disagree with - but on the same hand, I understand his motivations and I can see why he acts in the manner he does. Baine isn't badly written or inconsistent, especially if you know his history and the context in which he came to power within the Horde. But I also think Baine never got past the death of his father at Garrosh's hands, and the trauma of that occurrence informs a lot of what he says and does as a leader within the Horde (for better or worse). You can dislike a character without needing to tear them down, just as you can like a character and admit that they're not a good person internal to the narrative at hand.

[Mehrunes]

Trying to rationalize and hypothesize how something in the lore could possibly make sense when things are unclear = bad.
Not even bothering to try to understand and just assume the writing is bad = good.

Am I getting it right?

No, it's you trying to contort reality in order to pretend that something is unclear when it really isn't because it being unclear is the required ingredient for your valiant defense of Blizzard kami-sama that = bad. And so is your fantasy that people not buying into that aforementioned contortion of yours don't understand the story and can't even bother to try. Given how many times you got something wrong in your valiant defense of Blizzard, the god's gift to the concept of storytelling, those remarks are rather hilarious coming from you, really. Each time it happens is truly top notch bothering to try to understand the story you're defending on your part.

There really is no point trying to talk to you or Dickmann, since whenever you're questioned you simply throw around ad hominem insults and accusations of logical fallacies.

That's mighty weird because both me and @Super Dickmann can and do source our arguments whenever necessary. The "accusations" (i.e. pointing out) of your logical fallacies is just a bonus. Whereas you usually just roll with "the story has not a single flaw because Blizzard's writers are masters of their craft" (or just aim for some "gotcha" comments like in this thread without even having it in you to quote the people you're talking about).

And please, it's not just me and Dickmann. You do it every single time no matter who criticizes Blizzard the perfect perfection of storytelling and regardless of what their overall view on the story is. Vide your bout with @Combatbulter where they claimed that WoW suffers from inconsistencies and you - in all hilarity given WoW's track record with retcons - tried to deny it and demanded proof. And then tried to do it again even when they answered you.

You made it perfectly clear you're not actually interested in the story and what actually happens. Just twisting whatever you happen to glance at into some twisted fanfiction caricature.

Yeah, that's why I post on the lore forum all the time. Super logical. Except for the part where it isn't. If anything the kind of a person not interested in the story would be a person outright incapable of being critical about it (likely because they convinced themself that being critical has to equal being negative about it and being negative about anything related to Blizzard, the company that was promised is a sin or something) and instead just laps it all up as if Blizzard's writers weren't at the very least, you know, humans that can make mistakes.

And please, do quote examples of me "twisting" anything into a "fanfiction caricature". I'll enjoy proving your "amazing" examples wrong with canon sources.

The fact OP was able to turn one screenshot of Baine in Stormwind into this mess is evidence of that.

Do familiarize yourself with the concept of a joke.

[Arrashi]

Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer.

More like they are trying (and failing) to present it.

[Mehrunes]

On this forum, absolutely.

Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way.

Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer.

Yes, yes. You truly are the martyr of WoW fandom. Never mind that you can't even discuss those singular moments you talk about without cherry-picking half of it out and then changing some other aspects of it to its stark opposite *cough* vide you brilliant claim that Sylvanas knew for a fact that some of the Forsaken she had killed at the Gathering were loyal to her when what she told to Nathanos is that she can't know whether they are loyal to her or not *cough* (which, on a side note, is actually the cause the fanfiction writer thing, I'd wager). Let alone when you're talking about broader things.

Not that I know who's discussing the story not as Blizzard is presenting it. I mean, what's the alternative even? Pretending to know for sure what they have in store?

[Powerogue]

Wow. I was in an argument with Dickman a few weeks ago over the Taurajo/banishing tauren incident for almost a week back and forth in some thread. Trying to get myself into Baine's head and throwing out ideas for why he did what he did. (My prevailing theory was going on the offensive against the Alliance when your civilian populace is in need of aid due to the hurts of the Cataclysm didn't sit right with Baine) And you nailed him and guys like him on the head better than I ever did. Mind if I use you as my sig?

Fine by me.

and to Super Dickmann, I didn't say she didn't have basis in her motive, I said her motive changed. Widened. Broadened. I looked at more than just the book, but also the stuff happening in-game after the book, and drew conclusions from looking at all of it together.

Such context is important, like any of the multitude of times you've brought up side-stories I wasn't aware of that provided story context.

On the actual thread topic, I still think this is a Baine success. I'm glad it worked out in a different way than Baine winding up "Warchief" which would have not only maintained the blood oath, but also added far too much irony to ever take the title seriously again.

Alliance allowed in Orgrimmar, Horde allowed in Stormwind, this exchange is mutual. It's certainly more than I expected this cow to pull off, but I suppose this is what happens when you actually have level-headed leadership in both factions instead of this.

[Mehrunes]

People often try to paint their opinions of the story as objective fact or the state of the story itself, allowing zero room for other interpretations or ideas as to how the story is going or where it is leading. I think it's fine to dislike the story being told, especially if you wanted something else, but it's also fine to enjoy it for what it is and delight in seeing the status quo change as new events come to the fore. Take for example Baine, a character I don't personally like and often disagree with - but on the same hand, I understand his motivations and I can see why he acts in the manner he does. Baine isn't badly written or inconsistent, especially if you know his history and the context in which he came to power within the Horde. But I also think Baine never got past the death of his father at Garrosh's hands, and the trauma of that occurrence informs a lot of what he says and does as a leader within the Horde (for better or worse). You can dislike a character without needing to tear them down, just as you can like a character and admit that they're not a good person internal to the narrative at hand.

I really don't get why people addressing criticism of Baine, be it broad or more specific, always feel the need to point out how consistent he is. Who of the plethora of people critical of him is saying that Baine is inconsistent? Because it's not the OP of this thread. The OP said multiple times in various threads over the span of months if not years that Baine is the single most consistent character in WoW. And I'm not exactly seeing much of it in other posts in this thread. Yes, Baine is consistent. But he's consistently terrible. That's why he gets "torn down", whatever that is even supposed to mean in this context. And no, that's not to say he's badly written. Again, he's consistent. And with the standards of writing in Blizzard that alone makes him skyrocket to the top of well-written characters as far as WoW goes. He's just a terrible character for many people. And not even in a "love to hate him" way.

[Ezyah]

Is there an ally ambassador in Orgri ?

[Mehrunes]

Is there an ally ambassador in Orgri ?

Not yet, from what I recall. Maybe there won't be one at all and the whole deal with Baine is a parity thing to Alliance leaders prancing around Orgrimmar in 8.2.5.

[Paraka]

On this forum, absolutely.

Remember, never look over the long term story and try to piece together what Blizzard planned, only take singular moments out of context and blow them way out of proportion. We can argue better that way.

Every time I try to look at the story as Blizzard are presenting it I'm either called a shill or a fanfiction writer.

But isn't that exactly how you read a fanfiction too? As how the fan writer presents it?

BfA, along with Cataclysm that predates it, has so many weird changes in the story that it's like everyone changed their mind halfway in. "Morally grey" Sylvanas, We will find out who truly burned Teldrassil, Calia's "I totes know how the Forsaken feels after a day of lightly toasted undead," Blizzard's adamant on the whole we're-totes-not-doing-Garrosh thing. There is so many parallels with the Cata-MoP story beyond just moustache twirling villain Warchiefs at that.

If we read it as what Blizzard is presenting it, any change of the story equals complicit and accurate story telling. Any changes of a character's consistency is deferred to as "they experience a change offscreen," and then roll with it. Only ones who remained consistent has been Sylvanas (as much as Morally Grey Blizzard can write) and Baine. But literally everyone surrounding the two are just railing against their own personalities to push the narrative further down... Whatever this is. And with how predictable everything has been, I wouldn't bat an eye to any assumptions of how much more they're going to butcher the Horde into a subdivision of the Alliance.

Either they greatly lie, and are horrible at it, or they straight up decided what they thought was genuinely not a good idea without informing the fanbase.

I know they've done better, hell, they can do better cause some of the isolated stories of Drustvar and the Vulpera are actually decent among the wreckage that is the War Campaign. Some reason they can't. Alliance is in this round room of Self Righteous Indignation that is the Human Potential, and the Horde is the first thing they think of when they need new expansion enemies.

[Tornwar]

People freaking out that Baine is visiting Anduin in Stormwind, but forgets that a bunch of alliance were just in Orgrimmar (Jaina included)... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Powerogue]

Is there an ally ambassador in Orgri ?

Not sure actually, I only was referring to that speech Anduin made at Saurfang's funeral.

Can someone check the PTR? I'd think they would put someone there, but I'm not sure who. Jaina would be possible, though extremely humorous for any zandalari players waltzing by.

[Aucald]

I really don't get why people addressing criticism of Baine, be it broad or more specific, always feel the need to point out how consistent he is. Who of the plethora of people critical of him is saying that Baine is inconsistent? Because it's not the OP of this thread. The OP said multiple times in various threads over the span of months if not years that Baine is the single most consistent character in WoW. And I'm not exactly seeing much of it in other posts in this thread. Yes, Baine is consistent. But he's consistently terrible. That's why he gets "torn down", whatever that is even supposed to mean in this context. And no, that's not to say he's badly written. Again, he's consistent. And with the standards of writing in Blizzard that alone makes him skyrocket to the top of well-written characters as far as WoW goes. He's just a terrible character for many people. And not even in a "love to hate him" way.

Inconsistency is generally the rallying cry of the "bad writing" contingent. Calling him "consistently terrible" more or less comes off as hyperbolic - again, you don't like the character and that's fine, it doesn't make him badly written, inconsistent, or otherwise implausible. If what I said doesn't apply to you then it doesn't.

[Mehrunes]

Inconsistency is generally the rallying cry of the "bad writing" contingent. Calling him "consistently terrible" more or less comes off as hyperbolic - again, you don't like the character and that's fine, it doesn't make him badly written, inconsistent, or otherwise implausible. If what I said doesn't apply to you then it doesn't.

Such a short post and so much to unpack here. First of all, going from "bad writing" to "inconsistency" in regards to Baine when no one really calls him an inconsistent character and even people critical of him themselves repeatedly affirm he's consistent is a logical leap on your part.

Secondly, I'm not seeing much of bad writing directed at him personally in the first place either (there is some "around" Baine like the time where Lor'themar joined the traitor side because Baine is "the heart of the Horde", a conclusion he got after existing in the same general vicinity as Baine on like three occasions, one of which was the time when Baine was publicly saying how treason against Horde justifies a death penalty and none of which included them talking with each other, all of which happened despite the fact that Lor'themar is first and foremost a political pragmatist that cares mostly about the well-being of his people, for which he was more than willing to bail on the Horde and its heart).

Thirdly, the term "bad writing contingent" reeks of a dishonest dismissal of criticism against Blizzard's writing as if none of it was valid.

Fourthly, how is my opinion of Baine hyperbolic when I made it explicitly clear, to the point I couldn't have made it any clearer even if I tried, that I don't mean it in context of the quality of his writing (making most of what followed the hyperbolic remark in your reply rather pointless) but as an opinion of a bovine entity within the story? I find Baine to be utterly deplorable. You not agreeing with that doesn't make my view of him hyperbole.

[Powerogue]

Inconsistency is generally the rallying cry of the "bad writing" contingent. Calling him "consistently terrible" more or less comes off as hyperbolic - again, you don't like the character and that's fine, it doesn't make him badly written, inconsistent, or otherwise implausible. If what I said doesn't apply to you then it doesn't.

I would argue that what they did was the best possible outcome for the character. If there's a character that is consistently disliked for doing something in this way, you've got:
1) retcon
2) drastic event changes their outlook to a different one
3) different circumstances make their unique outlook and skills a boon rather than a bane

So they could've just pretended old Baine didn't exist (not ideal), done something to him to make him hate the Alliance and dismiss diplomacy/mercy/honor (ehhh, we've already got Jaina going through that), or what they actually did, which was put Anduin in charge of the Alliance, someone who Baine has a friendship with, making Baine's hopes of peace with the other faction actually plausible. That pitted him directly against a Warchief who wanted no such thing, but his side eventually won out due to him winning over Jaina and Saurfang winning over Anduin.

I would argue Baine was the strongest "Horde player expy" in the expansion, beating out Saurfang, because while Saurfang had agency due to becoming disconnected from the Horde, Baine was stuck in the same position any Team Traitor players were: still needing to play along with the morally abhorrent actions of the faction. "For the Horde..." under the breath in the Lordaeron cutscene meaning "I despise Sylvanas but I'm still a member of the Horde and will try to keep it together through this madness."

[Arrashi]

Inconsistency is generally the rallying cry of the "bad writing" contingent. Calling him "consistently terrible" more or less comes off as hyperbolic - again, you don't like the character and that's fine, it doesn't make him badly written, inconsistent, or otherwise implausible. If what I said doesn't apply to you then it doesn't.

I dunno Jar Jar was also consistently terrible and noone ever denied that. And baine pretty much is jar jar of warcraft universe.

[Aucald]

Such a short post and so much to unpack here. First of all, going from "bad writing" to "inconsistency" in regards to Baine when no one really calls him an inconsistent character and even people critical of him themselves repeatedly affirm he's consistent is a logical leap on your part.

Secondly, I'm not seeing much of bad writing directed at him personally in the first place either (there is some "around" Baine like the time where Lor'themar joined the traitor side because Baine is "the heart of the Horde", a conclusion he got after existing in the same general vicinity as Baine on like three occasions, one of which was the time when Baine was publicly saying how treason against Horde justifies a death penalty and none of which included them talking with each other, all of which happened despite the fact that Lor'themar is first and foremost a political pragmatist that cares mostly about the well-being of his people, for which he was more than willing to bail on the Horde and its heart).

Thirdly, the term "bad writing contingent" is reeks of a dishonest dismissal of criticism against Blizzard's writing as if none of it was valid.

Fourthly, how is my opinion of Baine hyperbolic when I made it explicitly clear, to the point I couldn't have made it any clearer even if I tried, that I don't mean it in context of the quality of his writing (making most of what followed the hyperbolic remark in your reply rather pointless) but as an opinion of a bovine entity within the story? I find Baine to be utterly deplorable. You not agreeing with that doesn't make my view of him hyperbole.

So far the only people calling him consistent in this scenario are you and I, so you're more or less attempting to construct a public here - as I said above, if you find him consistent than that's great, end of story as it were.

By "bad writing contingent" I'm less referring to a specific set of people than a repeated behavior of attempting to pare down personal dislike of WoW's current story as "bad writing." I suppose nowadays you might call it a "meme," I guess. Bad writing requires some form of objective standard of comparison or analysis, and this is often completely absent when it comes to personal criticism of WoW's narrative. Baine doing something one dislikes or disagrees with is not bad writing in and of itself, as characters can perform actions or make decisions one may not agree with. I've found the cries of "bad writing" to often be a mask for more personal distaste, like your own present, which is more or less an opinion and not any kind of objective statement or finding of fact.

As for your personal opinion, I find it hyperbolic because I think it's exaggerated pretty well past the point of incredulity - that's my personal opinion of it. I am quite sure we disagree on the matter, of course.

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I dunno Jar Jar was also consistently terrible and noone ever denied that. And baine pretty much is jar jar of warcraft universe.

Jar Jar Binks is a comedic character ridiculed as a vehicle for selling the "Star Wars" IP to children and/or merchandising - there is little to nothing that Jar Jar Binks and Baine Bloodhoof share in common from a narrative standpoint.

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I would argue Baine was the strongest "Horde player expy" in the expansion, beating out Saurfang, because while Saurfang had agency due to becoming disconnected from the Horde, Baine was stuck in the same position any Team Traitor players were: still needing to play along with the morally abhorrent actions of the faction. "For the Horde..." under the breath in the Lordaeron cutscene meaning "I despise Sylvanas but I'm still a member of the Horde and will try to keep it together through this madness."

I would agree that Baine went down the only applicable route he could given the nature of his character - he remained true to himself and his desire for peace between the Horde and Alliance. I've found most of the criticism, and all of the heaviest criticism, comes from the subset of partisans who don't desire peace of any sort for any reason. Like Anduin, Baine is a peacemaker, his goals are to end wars before they begin and to prevent actively spreading or advancing war when and wherever possible. This isn't a trait that would ever endear him to those who actively desire a state of war, and it's led him into being ethically compromised more than once as the promotion of peace, like war itself, often requires breaking a few rules of conduct.