Blizzard needs to EMBRACE flying...

[Gratlim]

They just need to remove the pathfinder nonsens and revert it back to what flying has always been since BC. Easy 1-2 mill subs right there.

[korijenkins]

Main reason for restriction of flying is that it never was good for the game but by the time Blizz realized it was too late to take it out. So they gave us pathfinder as middle ground solution.

Seems to me that flying in BC and Wrath worked fine. It was only in later expansions they got lazy with zone design.

In Wrath and BC you had zones that were designed with flying in mind. They stopped trying with the revamp in Cata.

[Segus1992]

Tanaan Jungle was literally posed as 100 level content before release, then it was changed in Beta. So that's not really a valid example.

If they come out and say it early, it'd be fine.

I'd be fine with zones where flying is required, the question is how you'd logically explain that we're not going there until we unlock flying somehow. I mean, flight paths are a thing, so it IS possible to fly - OUR mounts just can't (yet). If the locked-off area is interesting (and becomes important to the story later) why aren't they interesting now, story-wise?

[Kumorii]

"Actually, designing content around flying would literally add a new dimension of game play. For example, letting flying players use their abilities, creating weather patterns which could do things like speed you up or slow you down or knock you off your mount or limit visibility or cause Damage over Time, flying mobs which attack you the same way mobs on the ground do, fortresses which have actually effective anti-air which players would have to fly through to get in, being able to remount while in the air, adding stamina drain when flying above a certain altitude, allow mid-air collisions, Huge cliffs and massive valleys which can only be accessed through flight, giving characters special mounts which are similar to artifact weapons from Legion which you have to quest for and use to buy abilities for, more Raid Bosses like Malygos, getting your mount stolen from you by NPC poachers and having quests to get it back, allowing flight capable mounts to climb walls and hang from ceilings etc. etc. There's plenty of things Blizz could do with flying. They just decided not too."

Which is my point. Many of the points you have there limits your current freedom of flying... which is required for it to be an enhanced experience. You need to limit how flying currently works. I'm all for a rework of flying... I however don't think people will like it.
The reason why flying is so sought over is due to the fact that it enables linear point A to point B. As soon as you introduce more complex systems so it's more dynamic in that regard the attraction of flying will disappear as well, because it will work similarly how ground mounts work and people seem to dislike the obstacles there and thus they want flying.

You ideas will definitely enhance flying, most of them at least, but those also put restrictions and limit on flying. Harisun mentioned you don't need to do so which is why I asked how that would work. Any gameplay system needs a limit or boundaries on what it can do, currently flying have 0 limitations due to how it's implemented beyond some "no fly" zones such as caves and indoor places.

I would prefer of flying meant you can't fly through forest areas and the crowns of the trees... that you have to land outside the forest or find a glade and then continue with the mount on foot. Makes the world feel more realistic and immersive.

[Segus1992]

They just need to remove the pathfinder nonsens and revert it back to what flying has always been since BC. Easy 1-2 mill subs right there.

Yeah they also need to revert the numbers of Priests' Renew to what it did in Wrath. It's never been as high since, only logical explanation why the game is less popular now.

Nevermind the fact that Cataclysm was the expansion with the most available flying and was the start of the steep decline. But I wouldn't be stupid enough to imply that the decline is because of flying being so available, so why would I do the reverse?

[Kumorii]

I'd still rather fly up to a floating island to kill some mobs or get some treasure. Rather than use it to fly over a hill I've been used to running over for the past 12 months.

Sure, I just fail to see how that's enhancing it because you are literally doing the same thing, you bypass X amount of space to reach your goal and then get back. Doesn't matter if that space is open air or a hill or an ocean... who gives a shit, you are flying past it anyway. It doesn't get enhanced by having different things between Point A and Point B which are the points you are interested in.

[Krelivane]

I'd be fine with zones where flying is required, the question is how you'd logically explain that we're not going there until we unlock flying somehow. I mean, flight paths are a thing, so it IS possible to fly - OUR mounts just can't (yet). If the locked-off area is interesting (and becomes important to the story later) why aren't they interesting now, story-wise?

A magical barrier that is slightly see through? An army or presence that knocks flight paths away when they attempt to go near it? There a multitude of ways they could explain through the narrative as to why we can't fly there (or can't fly altogether) just yet.

[unbound]

I'm almost certain that this has been talked about before... but.

To take away flying would ruin the game at this point. So the only option left is for Blizzard to embrace flying and make zones, islands, questing areas etc; only available through it. This was done in Wrath I believe and I remember it being a really enjoyable experience having to fly to the top of Storm Peaks or wherever it was; as it was the only way to get there.

Embrace this mechanic and make it a true character of the game's design. Don't just have it as an ease of access tool to get around the zones. Having that as Flying's only benefit is ~ B O R I N G ~.

It's a subjective topic I suppose but, am I wrong?

This was indeed done in Wrath. It was also done in BC when flying was introduced. It was done in Cata as well.

MoP was when we saw the design try to ignore flying. Flying was just there to get from point A to B more conveniently; it was never integrated with the game. Indeed, it was explicitly disabled in a zone.

What more people need to accept is the reality of why Blizz is opposed to flying. It is a cost saving effort on their part...nothing more. It is easier (and thus cheaper) to have a ground mount only game. Flying lets people get to areas faster, which means you have to develop a bigger world and a world with more parts...and Blizz isn't interested in using that much of the profits to provide that to the customer.

[Krelivane]

Sure, I just fail to see how that's enhancing it because you are literally doing the same thing, you bypass X amount of space to reach your goal and then get back. Doesn't matter if that space is open air or a hill or an ocean... who gives a shit, you are flying past it anyway. It doesn't get enhanced by having different things between Point A and Point B which are the points you are interested in.

It adds character to the world. You're simply interacting more with this tool that has been in WoW, longer than it hasn't been.

[Kumorii]

It adds character to the world. You're simply interacting more with this tool that has been in WoW, longer than it hasn't been.

What adds character to the world is the terrain itself. Not flyngf. Flying enables you to bypass the character of the world since regardless of how it's designed you take the same path to everything. As I've mentioned earlier.... it's irrelevant if you design everything on floating islands or mountain tops or a flat terrain when flying makes it a linear path regardless of how the terrain is designed.

[Khaza-R]

I wish they would replace flying with mounts like in GW2.

Different types that have different abilities to bypass terrain.

[SirCowdog]

That doesn't enhance flying experience... it's still just flying from point A to point B. There is no difference if you fly up, down or forward or backwards etc etc... it's still linear Point A to Point B.


I did. Neither ENHANCED the flying experience, it made it a requirement, but it didn't change or made flying different. It's still a tool to get from point A to point B with the quickest way possible (linear as possible).

Require flying =!= enhancing flying.

Ok, I think I understand where you're coming from now. I think we're talking about two different things. One the one hand you have a question about how to mechanically improve the way in which flying works. But there's also the issue of how flying itself can effect the overall experience of the game.

Both of these go hand in hand, IMO. However, I think that improving the experience of the open world does not necessarily require that flying itself be changed in any meaningful way. Certainly it might help facilitate things, but I don't think it's required.

What I mean by this is that zones like Skettis or Stormpeaks were experiences that would not be the same without the existence of flying. Sure, you could trod around on the ground in those places, for the most part. But would you have the same experience of being hounded by kaliri birds, or harassed by skettis casters while trying to throw bombs and land in the right places while dodging patrols? Similarly in Icecrown, would it have been the same experience if you didn't have to dodge flying gargoyles, airships, and dragons? Or appreciated the scale and overall verticality of Stormpeaks?

The problem I keep seeing over and over again with the flying/no-flying debate is that all too many people think that the only valid experience is the one from the ground. And while I also greatly appreciate what Blizzard is capable of doing from the ground, it is not the ONLY way to present a zone or open world experience!

People are so stuck on the game being one or the other. But we can have both to great effect.

[Misuteri]

Or a crazy idea since they spend a shitload of time on creating zones, they want people to actually see it and not just fly from quest giver to objective and then back.

I completely reject this argument as you’re then making the game about the developers and not the players.

I always thought of Hyjal as being about the ideal place for how flying worked well in leveling. There were cliffs, caves, nooks and crannies you had to actually walk into and you could rarely land, collect 5 things then leave. Uldum was about the closest to bad level design for flying there was. Flat desert just begged for land, get 5 things, leave. However, caveat, what is there to explore or show off design wise in a flat desert.

If you do stuff like they did in MOP like the BOA weapons on rocks, in streams, caves etc you will have people exploring the zones more than if they forced/gated riding mounts.

[Kaver]

Blizzard should start designing zones based on flying like they did with for example Storm Peaks in Wrath. Having flying and then losing it for a while in the start of an expansion just feels like a wierd powerloss.

[WinningOne]

Which is my point. Many of the points you have there limits your current freedom of flying... which is required for it to be an enhanced experience. You need to limit how flying currently works. I'm all for a rework of flying... I however don't think people will like it.
The reason why flying is so sought over is due to the fact that it enables linear point A to point B. As soon as you introduce more complex systems so it's more dynamic in that regard the attraction of flying will disappear as well, because it will work similarly how ground mounts work and people seem to dislike the obstacles there and thus they want flying.

You ideas will definitely enhance flying, most of them at least, but those also put restrictions and limit on flying. Harisun mentioned you don't need to do so which is why I asked how that would work. Any gameplay system needs a limit or boundaries on what it can do, currently flying have 0 limitations due to how it's implemented beyond some "no fly" zones such as caves and indoor places.

I would prefer of flying meant you can't fly through forest areas and the crowns of the trees... that you have to land outside the forest or find a glade and then continue with the mount on foot. Makes the world feel more realistic and immersive.

You'd probably get more consensus if you stopped referring to things like these ideas as restrictions. A restriction is what Blizzard did when they attempted to remove flight and then gated it behind an achievement. Adding systems to the game which explore the dynamics flight potentially offers does technically introduce restrictions but the actual function is to introduce challenges which the players can confront and overcome. Simply having flight removed isn't something players can spend time on and eventually defeat. Neither is the achievement. Those are mindless solutions put together by some devs who had an axe to grind with players who didn't worship the content they were flying over.

[SirCowdog]

Flying enables you to bypass the character of the world since regardless of how it's designed you take the same path to everything. As I've mentioned earlier.... it's irrelevant if you design everything on floating islands or mountain tops or a flat terrain when flying makes it a linear path regardless of how the terrain is designed.

This is categorically false. Your statement is only true if the design is overly simplistic, and never changes. Funnily enough, what you said is ALSO true about the grounded design: A player will ALWAYS take the same path because WoW's open world is too simple. This isn't a problem specific to flight, but rather a problem with a formulaic world design that lacks innovation and dynamic aspects.

This is something that the patrols of the airships in icecrown broke up, if only to a minor degree. On the ground it's also the function of things like roaming devilsaurs or felreavers. What Blizzard would need to do is to include MORE things like this in both the ground and the air. The invasions in Legion and BfA are a sort of halfassed attempt at this, but done so poorly as to not really be effective. We'll see what happens in 8.3.

Regardless, Blizzard needs to do more with the open world than they have been. Flying can help with that, but only if the underlying design philosophy is improved first.

[probert]

Main reason for restriction of flying is that it never was good for the game but by the time Blizz realized it was too late to take it out. So they gave us pathfinder as middle ground solution.

this is exactly it.

it was a great 'end game' boost for TBC as you could get to raid locations faster and the space / heavy metal theme lent itself to the flying aspect.

but after that, it just became a huge problem with both content and landscape design. then they needed to retrofit the old world (cataclysm) which broke most of the good lore and nostalgia. and they've tried to avoid it ever since.

people get addicted to the convenience and hate when its removed. even though its generally bad for overall experience. guild wars 2 finally relented with gliders and they introduced the exact same problem.

[Kumorii]

Ok, I think I understand where you're coming from now. I think we're talking about two different things. One the one hand you have a question about how to mechanically improve the way in which flying works. But there's also the issue of how flying itself can effect the overall experience of the game.

Both of these go hand in hand, IMO. However, I think that improving the experience of the open world does not necessarily require that flying itself be changed in any meaningful way. Certainly it might help facilitate things, but I don't think it's required.

What I mean by this is that zones like Skettis or Stormpeaks were experiences that would not be the same without the existence of flying. Sure, you could trod around on the ground in those places, for the most part. But would you have the same experience of being hounded by kaliri birds, or harassed by skettis casters while trying to throw bombs and land in the right places while dodging patrols? Similarly in Icecrown, would it have been the same experience if you didn't have to dodge flying gargoyles, airships, and dragons? Or appreciated the scale and overall verticality of Stormpeaks?

The problem I keep seeing over and over again with the flying/no-flying debate is that all too many people think that the only valid experience is the one from the ground. And while I also greatly appreciate what Blizzard is capable of doing from the ground, it is not the ONLY way to present a zone or open world experience!

People are so stuck on the game being one or the other. But we can have both to great effect.

Nah, I don't think the ground is the ONLY way to experience the world... however, with how flying currently works it sorta is. Flying lacks weight. To me adding flying mobs or archers doesn't really do much, it's the same thing when it comes to ground mounts in that regard... either you ignore the damage and continue forward, or you get dazed and get annoyed. People already complain about daze and how inconvenient it is... adding inconvenience to the ultimate freedom of movement, aka flying, is something I don't think will sit well with the player base.

Much desire for flying is to get away from bullshit like terrain and obstacles. I don't know how they can solve the obstacle thing for flying since you can't fight back, if we can fight back that's a system rework, which is required if we are ever gonna do anything with flying. Not necessarily combat, but give the movement boundaries in which it cannot do and make it maybe shine even further in areas it can do well.

Any system requires boundaries to be a compelling system and almost every single system in any game have them. Flying doesn't. Problem stems from it being implemented in the most lazy way possible at the start and now us players are used to it so it's difficult to put limits on it.

[oldgods]

I feel like flying should a story locked thing per patch.
Finish all the zones main storylines in 8.0? Get flying on the main continents.
Finish Mechagon? Get flying.
Finish Azshara? Get flying.

People get to see the story as intended and arent needlessly gated afterwards.

[LuminaL]

Or a crazy idea since they spend a shitload of time on creating zones, they want people to actually see it and not just fly from quest giver to objective and then back.

this argument cant be any more wrong since I always see and enjoy zone more when Im flying, I use probably 20% of the zone when Im on my ground mount compared to how I explore with my flying mount and actually enjoy what is created.